Are we setting the right example for the kids?

[growl89]

This weekend I took a flight down to Atlanta to play with some buddies in the ECHO pro tournament, which was a great time Jason, very nice for your first one, of hopefully many!

So yesterday, which was Monday, myself, Gene Gsell, and Brett Leggat were watching a couple skills competitions, 14U, 12U and 10U I believe, as we waited for the Pro final to start.

The three of us sat there in shock as to what the kids were trying, and failing to do in the shootout portions of these skills competitions. The skill levels of the kids is not the issue as I think everyone should pick up a stick and play.

The issue at hand is that these kids skate down the rink, try to pick up the puck, throw the puck etc. and they end up just getting the whistle blown because they lose it or skate past it. I saw a kid in a game this weekend try to put his stick between his legs for a shot, he then stepped on the stick and broke it!

At what point does a coach or role model need to step in and say hey, enough is enough? I know trying any of that growing up I would have been benched in ice and roller.

Are the "dangles" getting out of hand? The three of us sat there in disbelief as to some of the stuff that was going on. Guys like Itan who make these flashy moves and videos are also extremely fundamentally sound. 99% of itans goals in the pro division are a hard wrist shot or snap shot and hes incredibly fast and smart with the puck. every now and then yeah he makes a great move and scores. That's one of the best in the game doing that. Shouldn't the players growing up learn the fundamentals first before even considering the flashy stuff?

any thoughts?

[InlineMBA]

In a game - there's no room for that kind of stuff and in those age groups a coach should bench a kid. In the older age groups - be prepared to pay a hefty price for "hot dogging it".

Guess we need to remember that this is a "skills competition", and it's all about fun for the kids. If one of these kids where lucky enough to pull off a "hot dog" move - more power to him. He/she would probably win the competition and the crowd would love it.

Guess I'm saying - there's a right time and a right place for this stuff. I recall Sully pulling off a backhanded Michigan in the Jr. skills competition at Euro NARCh. The crowd, all Britts - who'd never seen anything like it before - went nuts. They thought they'd seen the impossible. It was a lot of fun and the crowd showed their appreciation.

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

ps - ouch, I would have made my kid pay for the stick. But, hey - maybe the kid was trying to pull off a J.J. Fichter "$140 composite stick hacksaw" move? That had to be the funniest thing I've ever seen. (2004 NARCh Winternationals @ Las Vegas, NV) I still laugh when I think of the look on that kids face.

[JLambertUMSL]

Here's a guy whose style kids should be emulating...he doesn't do anything overly flashy, he's just a great all-around player who gets the job done and makes it look spectacular without hot doggin'.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...=pj+tallo&aq=f

[InlineMBA]

Here's a guy whose style kids should be emulating...he doesn't do anything overly flashy, he's just a great all-around player who gets the job done and makes it look spectacular without hot doggin'.

Yeah - good choice.

I've had the displeasure of seeing: the "Cheap Shot Artists", "Prima Donnas", "Cherry Pickers", "Cry Babies", the guys that have no respect for the game, their opponents, or even their own teammates, and the guys who think they walk on water.

Fortunately, I've had the pleasure of seeing in action the true meaning of: skill, heart, guts, determination and respect. Two guys that fit all of these attributes, both on and off the rink - are Greg Thompson and Eric Keane.

Two guys that are true role models if there is such a thing.

Steve Inge - Roxbury 8

ps - No disrespect to PJ, there's no one I enjoy watching play more than him. He can do it all.

[calihockey]

I think its hard to draw the line. You want players to learn confidence on the puck, but the situation that was explained seems to be far beyond that. I think that a coach should be reeling a player in when its obvious they are trying to dangl instead of playing the game or they are trying to embarrass another team when up by a huge margin. I saw the latter a few weeks ago. I have been trying to get back into shape after being almost 2 years since playing tournament hockey so I jumped on a local team. Its a thrown together team, but hey it allows me to try to get back into shape. We have a couple of guys who are definitely house players while the other team was mostly tournament level players. Two of their players kept showing up these two weaker players with the score lopsided. I pulled a Mark Savard spin move on one of them and got a cup check for effort. I bring this up not to complain, but to point out what just freely allowing dangling without regard to game play can lead to what can be lack of true team play or in the case of my example, sportsmanship. A few years ago, my travel team was beating a team pretty easily and one of our young forwards tried to bust a Jagr. He choked, but the other team was obviously not happy nor were any of his teammates. After the game he got locked out of the locker room in nothing but his jock strap. To make matters worse for him, the moved was recorded so he got to see it over and over at dinner after. We never had the problem with the player again. I am not suggesting such a drastic step by any means, but some times taking efforts to reel in that kind of play tends to iron things out

[ECHOHockey]

This weekend I took a flight down to Atlanta to play with some buddies in the ECHO pro tournament, which was a great time Jason, very nice for your first one, of hopefully many!

So yesterday, which was Monday, myself, Gene Gsell, and Brett Leggat were watching a couple skills competitions, 14U, 12U and 10U I believe, as we waited for the Pro final to start.

The three of us sat there in shock as to what the kids were trying, and failing to do in the shootout portions of these skills competitions. The skill levels of the kids is not the issue as I think everyone should pick up a stick and play.

The issue at hand is that these kids skate down the rink, try to pick up the puck, throw the puck etc. and they end up just getting the whistle blown because they lose it or skate past it. I saw a kid in a game this weekend try to put his stick between his legs for a shot, he then stepped on the stick and broke it!

At what point does a coach or role model need to step in and say hey, enough is enough? I know trying any of that growing up I would have been benched in ice and roller.

Are the "dangles" getting out of hand? The three of us sat there in disbelief as to some of the stuff that was going on. Guys like Itan who make these flashy moves and videos are also extremely fundamentally sound. 99% of itans goals in the pro division are a hard wrist shot or snap shot and hes incredibly fast and smart with the puck. every now and then yeah he makes a great move and scores. That's one of the best in the game doing that. Shouldn't the players growing up learn the fundamentals first before even considering the flashy stuff?

any thoughts?

GROWL89,

This is an interesting point that you brought up.

Thanks for the compliment by the way...even though it wasn't our first Nationals, just first year with a PRO division. ;-)

Anyway, back to your point. All valid points above...I just wanted to point out one thing. During the skills competition we had a "Breakaway" and a "Dangle" competition. The objective of the "breakaway" portion was to simply put the puck in the net. Make it look nice, or just drive it home...it all counts the same. But the kids also wanted a chance to show off their "fancy moves", so that it why we added the "dangle" portion. This gave the kids a chance to show off their new moves. I would agree that these antics have no place in our game (during a game), but in a skills competition they can be quite entertaining. Just think about the Globetrotters in basketball.

That said, I would agree that we need to make sure these moves are used (or not used) at the right time. "Sound fundamentals" should be stressed FIRST and good sportsmanship should never be sacrificed.

Do a 360 Michigan in practice when you are just goofing around...cool. Do it in a game to make the goalie look foolish...not so cool.

[Leaferguy]

I do worry that roller hockey is becoming more like AAU basketball in that it's entirely offensively focused.

As a goalie, I really, really think kids should focus on defense. Only on defense...

[ACCCT2]

That said, I would agree that we need to make sure these moves are used (or not used) at the right time. "Sound fundamentals" should be stressed FIRST and good sportsmanship should never be sacrificed.

100% SPOT-ON.

Do a 360 Michigan in practice when you are just goofing around...cool. Do it in a game to make the goalie look foolish...not so cool.

100% WRONG. Do a "360 Michigan" in a game (as well as other 'named' moves) and you've got the makings of an INCREDIBLY exciting, as well as sponsorship, marketing and broadcast worthy league. I'll take a Jordan or a Gretzky over a 'nameless-gameless' ("roll"?) player ANY day (and so would Nike...and Reebok...and Coca Cola...and Budweiser...and NBC...and CBS...and ESPN...and etc,. etc., etc.)...!!!

I do worry that roller hockey is becoming more like AAU basketball in that it's entirely offensively focused.

As a goalie, I really, really think kids should focus on defense. Only on defense...

50% WRONG. As Brett Hull astutely observed, you can teach virtually anyone how to play defence, but NOT in being dynamically creative and daring -- that's something innate, intuitive and almost UN-natural.

[calihockey]

I think it takes an extremely talented individual to play defense!

[eXpress19]

My brother and I (18 and 20 respectively) have been debating this topic for weeks now... We like to go play some open hockey on Friday nights to just get a good workout in, and week after week we watch 15-16 year old kids come out there and try to "Dangle" us. We are both born ice hockey players and just body them up every time they come down the rink and eventually they get pissed off enough to stop doing the moves. I have seen kids try and pull a toe drag between the legs yadda yadda time after time and all I do is time the poke check and head the other way on a breakaway. These young kids dont realize that the selfish fancy dancy moves will almost always result in failure. I sat there last night as one pulled a Michigan and scored on a goalie while I was not out there and then celebrated after it. Really kid? It's open hockey. I'm only 20 and I still feel like that is just a disgrace to the game. Maybe because of the Ice hockey background I feel differently then some but I prefer being fast as hell and busting my ass around a guy to score, then to skate down the rink, try to put it between my own legs and someone else's. Granted its cool to watch WHEN IT WORKS. Which like Growl said, is only when Itan tries it haha. These kids are starting to only practice these moves and not simple things like a slap shot or passing. There all around game suffers just so they can pull of a "cool" move in a shootout.

Once again, this isnt a rant about me not liking roller hockey because I LOVE it, probably more than Ice at the moment, but I do feel that there is a certain line that should be drawn, where kids should realize fundamentals are gonna get you a lot further in the sport then dangling. As stated earlier, Itan is the best at what he does bc he is fast while pulling the move off. Skating half speed down the rink trying to pick up the puck wont get you anywhere when you get to a higher level. I guarantee none of the top level guys would try that stuff in a NARCH Pro game. Just my opinion though. I'm sure everyone has a different opinion because a lot of people like to see the flashy moves.

[quick_dry]

100% WRONG. Do a "360 Michigan" in a game (as well as other 'named' moves) and you've got the makings of an INCREDIBLY exciting, as well as sponsorship, marketing and broadcast worthy league. I'll take a Jordan or a Gretzky over a 'nameless-gameless' ("roll"?) player ANY day (and so would Nike...and Reebok...and Coca Cola...and Budweiser...and NBC...and CBS...and ESPN...and etc,. etc., etc.)...!!!

I think the excitement that comes from a michigan or something super-fancy pulled off in a hard game is because it is out of the ordinary. I know you didn't touch on this, but if the move was commonplace then you'd just be watching another Slammball or something i.e. spectacular when you see the first advertisment clip showing the guy flying in the air and dunking it, or tackled mid-air, but when you see that that is allll they do, it gets boring.

I have no issue with guys pulling fancy moves, provided they've got the skills to back it up and make the move 'stick'. Otherwise you're just like that kid who wants to use a slapper in traffic. Dumb.

50% WRONG. As Brett Hull astutely observed, you can teach virtually anyone how to play defence, but NOT in being dynamically creative and daring -- that's something innate, intuitive and almost UN-natural.

now, now - you can put a gorilla in skates and train it to skate up and down the wings. But I'd argue that it takes something innate, intuitive, etc to defend _well_ - we've all watched those forwards play D who might know the nts and bolts of it, but have no flair for defence and are just scary when you see them in D.
(Not that I'm biased or anything )

eXpress19: agreed, those things look cool when they work - but when you take the 1 time it worked, and the 20 times it didn't, you'd have probably scored 10 times by just doing a basic move and putting it past the goalie. If guys worked on shooting mid-stride they'd be so much more effective - as a D I love it when guys stop skating and start cruising, you can see they're gonna go for the deke, the goalie can see they're readying for a deke and a shot... and you can't deke very well when you have a D-man standing you up.

Though if you look at the language we're using, what gets you noticed when people aren't really analysing the play? cool stuff. And when people are talking about you, what kid wants to be known as "really effective", when they could be "OMG its the kid who did X", does 'cool' stuff, etc. 'effective' and 'solid' aren't 'exciting'.

[Patn Lawton]

While I was in college I worked for First Line Hockey (traveling roller hockey camp on the east coast) as an instructor/counselor. There were always ten and eleven year olds who could pick the pick up on their stick but couldn't do simple things like follow through while passing/shooting.

Definitely a problem in the game, but if these players never stop on the ice they will continue with it. I think also having parent-coaches who don't know the fundamentals enough to teach them in practice contributes to the problem.

***Note that I am not trying to knock parents who put in the extra effort to volunteer as a coach***

[DannyG]

50% WRONG. As Brett Hull astutely observed, you can teach virtually anyone how to play defence, but NOT in being dynamically creative and daring -- that's something innate, intuitive and almost UN-natural.

Defense is creative. There are over 200 defensive habits, skills, and intuitive abilities that can determine the outcome of a game. As someone once wryly observed, "nobody ever goes home from the playground and hollers as they're coming in the door, 'Hey Mom, you should've seen the great defensive plays I made today.'"

With no offense intended (really good pun there, though, eh?), I do get tired of people who truely believe that you can teach anybody to play defense, and that defense is a non-necessary set of abilities when assessing talent.

Phooey on all you people who think so...

[zipyaj]

ummmm.... just a pictorial thought

[hockeymum]

It seems to me in this post apples and oranges are getting mixed a bit. The initial post, as well as a later one, talk about an individual skills competion and open hockey. Any of you guys remember what you were like as young boys? It is the nature of most young boys to always being discovering new and interesting ways to try new and interesting things. I am the mother of boys...the are ALWAYS seeing how far they can jump on their bikes, who can do the most complex skateboard tricks, etc. IMO, open hockey and indivual skills comps are the place for this experimentation, although I'm sure there are those that would disagree.

Now, if we are talking about taking unnecessary, irresponsible risks during games, or taunting a losing opponent, that is a completely different issue. IMO we've then crossed the line into poor sportsmanship. I don't think we should be so worried about disrespecting the game, but more about direspecting people. Teach your kids to be good sports and teammates and the "tone" of the game will usually take care of itself.

I do think in most cases, the kids do understand this distinction, although their love of the flashy often requires periodic redirection. But, if you have kids or have any experience coaching, you know that teaching kids to do the right thing and play the game well is a process, not something that happens overnight.