male sexism still...

[DannyG]

okay, this one has me so mad I cannot see straight...and I really don't know how to address it, so I feel I shouldn't til I figure it out...

My daughter played the SixPac nationals for two other teams than the ones I coach. She played 10's and 12's this past weekend...

Things went fairly well...usual self-doubts, self-blame for team mistakes, fear of the unknown...all the usual jitters that a caring, committed, fierce competitor gets...

Comes down to the playoff round for the twelves. The coach gives specific directions that defenders are to go up as third & fourth-men-in whenever possible in the second half, as we are behind.

I notice that my daughter is going up a lot of times when it shouldn't have been her play, her defensive partner is never making the break, when she goes, she is somewhat late in her cut, and resultingly not really effective...

I ask her about it after the whole thing...

She reports to me that the coach sent her out there with a variety of different partners on different shifts. All her partners were told, within her earshot, to "pay attention when Caitlin tells you something out there, she knows what she's talking about." I have heard the coaches tell some of the guys this myself.

Caitlin reports that she was making her support runs up the floor at her own decision, because the one guy wouldn't, even when it was clearly his play to make, even when she tried to encourage him, "Go Alex, I've got the back.." after the third such occurrence, Alex turned to her and shouted "Shut up, Bitch!"

Caitlin just went for the play from then on, whenever it was obvious that her partner wasn't going to make the play.
I felt she was very effective the whole tournament. Her two teams finished higher than their age groups ever have in national competition. She had five assists in ten games. She had to play back-to-back games, with the first game overtime. She was coughing and vomiting the whole tournament on the bench in between shifts (respiratory allergens) She never complained one single time about any responsibilities she was given by her two coaches.

I can (really, really) go on and on about how this young women performed, but you get the point...

What can be said about this nonsense? What possessed this second-rate player to voice this obviously envious and deliberately hateful remark to his own teammate?

This young man was not considered for inclusion with the Polar Bears team this year, as he only played in the rec league for about five months of the year. During the ice season, he refused to participate in the inline league (the two programs' games days do not conflict).

I am at a loss to even begin to approach addressing this.

Any ideas out there?



<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[Rebecca]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

after the third such occurrence, Alex turned to her and shouted "Shut up, Bitch!"

<hr></blockquote>

wow, can I assume the coach did not hear this? If you say he/she did and did not repremand that I am going to flip.

With the mouths on some adults and parents these days in front of our children, its hard not to think that this kid finds his response commen place and acceptable and it makes me think he is headed for rough times with a derogatory comment to a teammate like that, male or female. No one needs to be subjected to that from a (12?) year old?? I am sorry your daughter has a rotten teammate. She should say a prayer for him and not give up hope.

She will be a better person and a better athlete. She will enjoy the game and do well, and he will eventually end up in another sport [img]/wtimages/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Rebecca

http://community.webshots.com/sym/im...5LGfyvC_ph.jpg

[MDE3]

Unfortuneately what you must do is divorce yourself from being a parent in this case and react as though you had been the coach and Caitlin was not your daughter(easier to say than to do - but a "must").

If the remark had been made between two boys - as it might well have been given today's use of the vernacular - your reaction should be no different than had you overheard this under those circumstances. To react otherwise would simply demean your daughter further as it would smack of giving "special concessions" to her on behalf of her gender, and from what you describe - she competes on her own merits - gender notwithstanding.

There were similar situations (not gender related) when I coached my son. sometimes he was the guilty party and sometimes the victim. In all cases I tried to react as his coach first and parent second. We also had a girl who played with his team and was a good player as well. Calling her a "bitch" probably would have found you on your behind rubbing your jaw lol.

It's a tough sport and there will always be frustration and some injustices - like life - sounds like your daughter handled them well - and for that she should be praised.

[missionhockey21]

I am sad to hear that your daughter was treated that way by another teammate. I would encourage her and tell her how good she is, and it seems like her coaches appreciate her style of defense and would like all their defense to play like her. Tell her Alex was probably jealous of her play. Sometimes a little ego building is very helpful in a situation like that, at least it always has been for me.

[calselect89s]

Danny
I know its tough, I've heard and seen it before. I'm sorry she had to hear this, but she will probably toughen her game because of it. I'm sure she has earned the respect of her real team mates, and they won't support a bad apple like alex. I won't say that it will get any easier though, as the level of play increases, so do the bad apples. She will be always have to prove herself to the new kid and the new coach. It's a fact of life. I've heard the line, "she should be home playing with her Barbie's" and believe me, she's heard the same remarks about the "B____" from plenty of boys, Coaches and Parents! I had one parent at Narch in Florida foaming at the mouth just cause she shouldn't be playing against the boys.
On a side note.. Playing girls hockey, you hear more trash talk from our little princess's than you do in boy's.

[NLane]

Where was the ref? I thought any talk like that was not tolerated. If it was clear enough with a mouthpiece and cage to be heard by a player then it should have been heard by others.

[MDE3]

I think playing two on two for the whole game would be a little tiring don't you?

[DannyG]

Cal:

Your assessment seems accurate...and thanks! to all you responding...I am on a much more even keel this morning...

You have sparked one memory of the past week that was encouraging indeed. I understand your Cal Select 89 program gets to play girls' teams at a national level on ice. For those of us purely on the inline side of the house, the all-girls format only exists in the USAHIL youth nationals (and the Inline Cup adult nationals for the older girls, as well as the women's divisions in the other competitions).

It was a pleasure to note that a plurality of teams had girls participating as prominent players on their squads. Appearances being what they are, it looked like the girls were integral parts of the program, at least through the 12's.

On the down side, you saw the two girls in non-matching pants and helmets (they matched each other, though) on the one team. They were obviously "borrowed" for the event, and not "real" members of the team. Most of the girls seemed to be taking advantage of the "playing down" eligibility rules. A lot of the girls didn't even dress with their teams.

I did have to listen to the "Well, when they get to the 14's, it's different. Girls can't compete when the boys get bigger..."

In spite of all these limitations, Girls' Inline Hockey, as a component of our sport, has made great strides this year. Next year will also show tremendous strides in development.

1. No girls in our program will play down...at least, my daughter will not play down. We perhaps do our girls a disservice by using this crutch.

2. Caitlin will be working her butt off to play competitively at a national level for 13 year olds, regardless of gender. The Polar Bears 14's team will be co-ed.

3. We will continue the regional-level all-girls' Polar Bears teams. Sure hope NARCh Winternationals has those girls' divisions they have been talking about.

4. The Nations-Tobin Hockey League will host an all-girls' event sometime in the spring. This will be a "festival" type event, with all players signing up as individuals. The program will form random teams from ranking players' experience levels, and all the teams will play a round-robin and playoff series of games over a weekend. If you can get to El Paso, Texas in March, plan on coming out for this (hopefully) prestigious event. Girl players will get some high level hockey, in a high quality facility, make a ton of new friends, and have a bunch of fun. What more could you ask for?

Hope to see everybody this coming year, out on the blue floor!


<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[columbus_RHstar]

I would tell her to be in bigger person in this case. The kid is obviously insecure and the fact that Caitlin was chosen over him made him very jealous, given he probably would have been jealous if it had been a boy. The fact that it was a girl (remember when you were growing up and it was embarassing to have a girl picked ahead of you?) probably worsened the whole thing, then when she is making a simple comment, one you would expect to hear between 2 defense-persons, might have seemed more of an order, "you do this, and do like I tell you because I am better" (even though she didn't say it this way he may have interprited that way).

In this case and any case other case of discrimination (be it sex, race, age or anything else) the person being discriminated against should be the bigger person and walk away, head held high.

As for your actions, I would not talk to the boy directly, that may incite teasing of Caitlin about her daddy has to stick up for her, etc. But I would have one of his teammates or friends talk to him, tell him that he was out of line and should apologize, that she was just letting him know what she was going to do, whcih she was 100% correct in doing and that he needs to apologize (you'd be suprised, or not, how much more receptable kids are to their peers than an adult) to Caitlin.

Another way to go about it would be to talk to his parents. Obviously at his age parents are still around alot and driving him to tournaments and the like. His parents may have more of an affect than you would, they can punish him you better than you can. They can do whatever seems appropriate, with some suggestions ("I'd like to see him apologize") from you.

I've seen the same thing happen before, with younger kids cursing on the bench and parents finding out then 'suspending' them from play for a while, and I've seen where girls have been called bitch, hoe, slut, lesbian, and such because of jealousy from an opponent or a teammate (mostly opponents).

The thing that I would do if I was you is stress to Caitlin that he was wrong and that she should be the bigger person and not stoop to his level.

[DannyG]

your comments are extremely insightful...I appreciate that you are a young gentleman, and by all accounts that I have heard from here, a high level player yourself...I had been leaning toward the "people like this don't matter in the long run.." and your suggestions have convinced me that this is the right path.

I have the concern that a young person to deliberately choose to use a word hurtful to a female teammate (Mike's notation regarding the non-gender-specific current use of the word in today's jargon not withstanding) has issues that could cause some problems for them later on in life...I guess it may not be my job to straighten the kid out...he is his own problem, and I do not have to associate myself with this...

As I do come into rec league contact with this individual on a weekly basis (when he does play, anyway), I will be on the lookout for further manifestations of this behavior, as well as indicators that this might have been an isolated incident, not to be repeated.

Thanks! again for an insightful reply...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[MightyQuinn]

There is absolutely no doubt that Caitlin should not have been abused in this way.

And it does cheer me to see the positive reactions to this negative behavior on this board. But it is by no means the exception for a girl on a team. There is a limit to just how many times as a parent you have to say: you're a better player, you can rise above it, don't let it get to you........

I naively thought sexism had died out years ago, yet like Caitlin I see similar levels of abuse directed at my daughter Robyn. And the pity is, for many of these abusive kids on the rink, this behavior is learnt - from parents, coaches and others who really should know better.

[MDE3]

The problem isn't necessarily sexist although when directed towards a female player it is difficult not to assume that. The problem is the abusive attitude to anyone the player may need to feel superiority over, male or female. The comment was as likely to have been made to a male player as a female player - given today's use of the words chosen.

The problem is the need to demonstrate a need to appear superior and doing so by making derogatory comments.

Without getting too steamed about it - the phrase &quot;bitch&quot; is used constantly in a derogatory fashion between opposing players and even teamates in the heat of battle - regardless of sex. If we were to eject a player everytime it happened there would be no one left to field a team. That it was made to a girl - playing on an otherwise all male team - makes us all bristle, but try to keep things in perspective. Would this post ever have happened if the comment was directed at a guy? Even though the intent was the same? These are all adolecents remember - all trying to &quot;make an impression&quot; on the world and elbow their way into their share of the limelight. Not to excuse the comment, because I'm no fonder of hearing it directed at an opponent or another teamate of the same sex - but the problem is not that it was directed at a girl but at a team mate. I'm sure Caitlin's sensitivities fall more along these lines as well.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by MDE3 on 07/07/03 06:54 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

[columbus_RHstar]

Thank you for your gracious comments about my post, I appreciate them. I wish however that I did not have to make that post in the first place (meaning the event never took place).

As Mike notes the word has lost some of its gender specifity lately however the word is still hurtful and sometimes people don't realize that just because it's accepted to say it among your guy friends, your female friends will most likely find it hurtful.

[DannyG]

true enough, I am also sure that my sensitivities were afronted much more than Caitlin's...and it is highly probable, that because it was from a defensive linemate that she was trying to help, was no doubt the source of her concern...

however, in the formula for success at a national level:

1. Seven skaters a a goalie,
2. A quality team system of creative offense and patient defense,
3. eight players and a coach that would live and die for each other,

this kind of incident tends to totally destroy a team...I confess, that, even in somewhat cooler reflection, I don't want anything to do with this kid. His obvious attitude, when things start going bad, is to lash out at a teammate, and ignore the coach's instructions??? I don't think so...

So, as Tommy pointed out somewhere in this discussion, addressing this as a specific incident does no good, because there is too much underlying attitude and belief that this behavior is somehow acceptable.

This young man, however, will need to demonstrate a quantum leap of changed behavior, over a long period of time, prior to my considering him for a position on any team that I am associated with.

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[MDE3]

Exactly!!!! The same thing should be true if he behaved in this fashion to a male team mate. Who needs the strife when you are trying to create a team?

That Caitlin is a girl and maybe a better player too, no doubt added insult to injury in this case. However had Caitlin been a boy but a "rookie" and younger - but also a better player and given some authority to direct the action on the floor by the coach - this player no doubt might have had the exact reaction we saw here.