Building Rink Worth Investment?

[kaptainkrunch408]

Hey,

Sorry bored and out of curiousity. How much would it cost to get a rink going in full operations. Including purchasing land building the rinks and stuff? Do people make a big profit out of it? I see people selling their rinks and stuff for like 50 thousand I'm thinking when i'm done with college and work for a couple years i could build one myself. Is it worth it?

[DannyG]

Imagine building a basketball gym: $65,000 wood floor, $3,000 monthly building lease, $25,000 fixtures installed, and you must charge $7.00 per player for pick-up games...wouldn't work, right? Any basketball player can go down to the Y, or Boys' club, or JCC, or city rec center for free, right...

When our municipalities see fit to provide quality, free-use facilities for the kids (and adults) who play inline hockey, just like they already do for baseball, basketball, football, softball, soccer, etc, then private rinks are going to have a real tough time competing...

Already, it is very difficult to charge less than $75.00 per season per player, and proportional rates for pick-up, instructional sessions, etc...the public rink can do that for $20. How can you compete...

Hopefully, in the next decade, as rink ownership, and therefore the decisions that affect the future of the sport, is moved out of the private sector and into the public, we will see development opportunities for players like never before.

We applaud that it has been private rink ownership over the past 15 years that has given our sport the opportunity to grow to the point we enjoy at the present. It is now time for municipalities to step up and take the recreation opportunities to the next level.

-Daniel T. (Dan) Guard,
Recreation Services Supervisor,
City of El Paso Parks & Recreation Department

[columbus_RHstar]

Danny, didn't you say you will have a video for how to get a rink built in your area by the city coming out? When will it be coming out?

Or maybe I'm just dillusional...

[DannyG]

you're on the list...production of the script...the hard copy materials are written already...will be in the July/August time frame...sorry for the delay, but:

If you were to approach your municipal powers-that-be with only the written info, then frankly, it would go into the stack of "things to maybe get to before the next millinium" stuff on the desk...the video won't be complete til our new rink completes the final section to the masterpiece...we are still looking to get into the building over Memorial Day weekend, but you know how construction goes: when it's finished you get the key, until then, it ain't finished...

I don't want to sound like I'm producing a cage league here, but the whole package takes two points to the forefront:

1. Our municipal government believes that inline hockey players (of all ages) deserve to have a first-class place to play just as much as every other sport already has. All the other sports in your town probably have municipally provided venues to play already, too.

2. There is a stage-by-stage progression of development of the sport that has provided the municipal powers-that-be with justification for providing the facilities at every step of the way. Any municipality can duplicate what we have done.

Anybody want this, just let me know...we hope to produce over 100 copies of the video and material.

Imagine if, say 50 of the 100 largest metro areas of this country had first class rinks where you could play a season for only $20...that's what we can do with this! (and no cage needed...)

[missionhockey21]

Danny I would defiently like the video and info. Thanks

[DannyG]

I will send you some preliminary info in June, the goodies in August, or earlier, if we get 'em.

[Superstar9]

This is a subject I will have to touch on.. there are quite a few drawbacks to losing privately owned rinks... you would lose the ability to pay top level directors and staff the money that they require, you need those people to direct everything, teach hockey, and just as a credible "front man" to your business. Kids don't like to listen to someone teaching them if the kid thinks he's a better player than the teacher. The other drawback to a public rink is that you are at the mercy of the parks and rec people as far as your budget. When there are hockey players owning and running the organization like it should be, the sport will grow and be a quality program. The other problem w/ the parks and rec funding instead of private ownership is that you end up w/ less than 2nd rate facilities and used rink equipment and dont have the funding to properly staff it or maintain the rink itself.. just what I've seen and heard. Players only having to pay $20 for a season is great but, they'll only be paying for a 2nd rate season.. With privately owned rinks, the price has to be higher, there's bills to be paid. You have to cover all of those extra little things that people do notice and like. For example a clean floor, those Real refs, that nice sound and PA system, oh yeah... and the NEW quality boards, glass, and floor. Not to mention that director that can actually teach something and not what they learned watching the NHL on tv. There's a lot more involved in a rink project than most people would ever know. Im involved in the construction of 3 different rinks around the country right now and It's a lot of work and very little return in the first couple years w/ the exception of the hefty salary. unless you have 2-3 million to spend.. stay out of the rink ownership circle.. not a good idea w/ anything less. No offense to anyone in this post.

[Superstar9]

Basically what I meant by all that was.. you get what you pay for.. top rate hockey isnt cheap.. 2nd rate is.

[columbus_RHstar]

NO CAGE!?!?!

Oh well, I'm definitlkey interested.

[DannyG]

Hey, everybody:

The "quality" of a program, as it is judged, evaluated, and ultimately graded in the marketplace, will determine whether any program, public or private, will meet the needs of the consumer, and succeed or fail.

There are different, separate, defined segments of the inline hockey consumer/player market. This will allow more than one rink to prosper, if each one provides legitimate value to its consumer segment.

Successfully defining what is "quality" and "value," will be the key to survival in areas where public and private rinks both are vying for the market.

That the public rinks have reduced overhead, and can therefore offer lower prices, is only a single component of value. The consumer has other factors that are equally, or more so, important than price alone.

Anybody ever find the perfect program at the perfect rink? I'm not sure we ever will...I think our new rink locally will come close, but Chris' set of cautions against public rinks above shows several components of what may be our Achilles' heel. At least, the consumer might think so.

What works in one part of the country might be a failure in another, simply because the consumer expects something different in value. If you don't, or can't, produce what the consumer expects, then you are limiting your chances for success.

I frankly don't think most of what Chris lists as the usual and normal limitations of public programs is correct. I, too have seen almost everyone of those less-than-perfect factors in rinks all across the country. Every problem Chris lists applies equally to private rinks, especially the budget, staff, and equipment constraints.

I do, however, stand ready to send (in August) this video & printed material set to anybody who would like to take a shot at getting their municipality to operate a quality program. You can then be the judge if this program level would work for you.

-Dan

[RichardGraham]

Hi Danny,

When you get the video finished, send me a jpeg of the cover art (if it will have it), and I'll put a story about it on site so interested parties can get a hold of the tape.

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[Superstar9]

That's a fair enough evaluation, points made, and opinions. To each his own to decide right.. let's end this one before it get started. There's ups and downs to everything and every situation. I probably have the opinions I do because of the fact that im involved in a couple private facilities and because of the fact that I have high standards as to where I play by choice, not where I've been forced to play as of late while in limbo waiting.

[LuRules]

Funny - those of us in Northern CA never pay less than $115 per team per season and leagues are full here. Being a public servant (yes, with recreation background) and a hockey player, I'd be hard pressed to play in a municipal inline league. Cities just don't run leagues competitive enough for my level of play, nor do most cities have staff passionate enough about hockey to create the same programs you find at private rinks. And, even if a city is lucky enough to find hockey-oriented staff, the rink is not always priority for the city, depending on the current budget situation. While profits are a factor, I've found that private rink employees have more passion for the game and run better programs.

Public programs would be great for kids and/or non-competitive adult leagues but beyond that, you'd need, at least a non-profit group running things. Most people I know that play competitive basketball or soccer play in leagues run by YMCAs, leagues at country clubs or other private leagues because they find that beyond the beer league levels, recreation departments just don't offer high level competition.

And, I've found that municipal rinks such as Planet Hockey in West Covina just don't have the same atmosphere as private rinks. Maybe its all the municipal brown and tan they used to paint the place that dulls the senses. But its a great ploy to keep the liability costs down.

[DannyG]

Wow! your points are:

1. Private rinks develop more competitive player opportunities than do public rinks.

2. Private rink personnel are usually more knowledgeable and/or dedicated to the development of the sport than are the usual and normal municipal recreation department personnel.

I am most offended, however, by your denegration of the usual municipal six-shades-of-browns decoration scheme. (kidding)

You are right that, if a municipal program is going to develop the sport correctly then the person in charge of the program must include legitimate opportunities for players at a variety of levels.

The elite player needs a house league geared to his/her ability level, just as much as the once-a-week rec player, the over-30 intermediate player, the women/girl player, the novice-learn-to-play adult player, the new kid players of all ages. All must be able to participate in an environment of challenge and success. You are correct that the usual rec dept aims only at the lower-skilled, more rec-level participant. Doesn't have to be the case, though.

It is indeed a major point of my information set that the successful inline hockey program must recognize the needs of a variety of players, and must provide for all of them. If you don't, then you end up with the situation where all the players in town know which rink the "real" game is played at. That rink begins to draw players away from the other prorgams, and eventually, the other programs go out of business, or get turned into an indoor soccer facility full-time. Bummer.

I also believe as you do that the municipality must have personnel that have some modicum of knowledge about the sport, and must also have a deliberate plan for the progressive development of player opportunities. The rec dept employee must give a darn about the game. I, too believe that is absolutely critical.

I assure you, however, that, while most city personnel processes are slower than private situations, municipal recreation departments do have the ability to get the right people into the job. They just need to know to do this. That is another major point that my information set makes.

If you examine my original post, you will see that this is really a hypothetical...

-If-

you could get the same benefits from the public facility, then it would be cheaper to the player than the private program, and players would have more opportunities. Also, program decisions made by the industry as a whole would not be made with the profit motive as a factor.

The profit motive is neither good nor bad. My assertion here is just that decisions are made differently in the public sector, with different priorities than in the private sector.

I also assure you that I have as my top and only priority, the growth and development of legitimate opportunities for players of all skill levels in the sport of inline hockey. It is my only job.

My contention, once again, is that I would match this program with any private facility in terms of player opportunities. I contest any assertion from a private rink that they have an opportunity for a player that our local program doesn't. and our players pay only $105 per year, period. This is for 25-55 games per season, 4 seasons per year, unlimited daily open floor time, team training, player development training, uniform sweaters, individual player stats, etc., etc., etc...

Please let me know how I can help your locality to achieve the same. I contend they can, if they have the right how-to information.

-Dan

[Superstar9]

No offense intended but, It just isnt the same in any way.

[MDE3]

Hi Danny - back again. In support of your point of view about public programs not having to be that defficient.

Using the Canadian hockey scene as a parellel - most communities there do support subsidized facilities. Towns of less than 2000 people will often have an indoor ice arena that seats 400 - 1200 people as well as several outdoor facilities used for winter fun. These arenas run in house and travel programs that compete successfully on a province wide basis. None of this would be possible if payed for strictly by private enterprise. Typical ice time rentals are in the $50.00 - $150.00/hr.with the majority being less than $100.00/CDN/hr. Comparing this to costs down here - it is obvious that this recreational infrastructure can only continue to exist within a pubilcy supported venue.

Obviously this is ice hockey not roller, but what you are proposing greatly parrellels what exists already on a wide spread basis for ice hockey in Canada. What IS different is the mentality of local government support for youth and public recreation facilities. In general these activities recieve a far greater subsidy than is seen down here, both from a "provincial"(state) level as well as trickle down funds from the federal level. To have a widespread successfull community sponsored program, it will no doubt require that funds beyond what local communities can raise be dedicated to these facilities - which goes far beyond just subsidizing the building costs. Most of these facilities are run at what would certainly be considered a "loss" at the private level, but within the budgets allocated for recreational sport by existing provincial allocations. I dont know to what extent state or federal subsidies are available to communities to create equivalent facilities down here for roller hockey or any other sport which could make use of the created facilities but I'm sure you have done some research on the subject.

While apparently you operate in a community large enough to support your facilities from the local tax base, in many areas the LAST priority would be any indoor recreational development for tax monies were they available. Locally they have trouble getting enough of a budget to keep the public swimming pools open in the summertime, or buying fresh cover for the base paths at the publicly owned Little League ball fields.

Without some sort of nationally subsidized initiative I would fear that getting local public support to create what you have obviously successfully developed - on a wide scale - will be difficult.

[kaptainkrunch408]

Hey,
The reason I bought this up is because our local private rink is charging an arm and a leg to play here. It's 1500 a team, plus every player has to pay "insurance" fee every year which is 20. 12 teams a night is 18000. Then have this for 4 nights a week. Friday, Saturday, Sunday night when the big boys come out to play, they have even more teams. The highschool league has a bunch of teams, the rink can't even accept every school.

Usually the highschool league games start as earlier as 4 on fridays. Then the mites and little kids that play saturday and sunday morning are paying huge fees also. I remember we would have to ditch school to go to hockey pratice at our rink, because so many high schools rented the rink times during the day. I might have a few errors, but dang I am thinking this is alot of money. Probaly explains why they never have free time to clean our darn rink so much dust in there.

[Superstar9]

Thats an aweful lot of money.. 18k / night? is that a typo? Cant be right, not possible.

[DannyG]

Krunchy:

Okay, that makes a little more sense...I think you said in your original post that your team paid, like $150, which I was wondering why that was so bad..$1500 is exactly what I usually hear in these things...

Incidentally, there is a number of defineable "market factors," that have caused the successful rinks to be successful...that rink is obviously doing them. You did a great job in your earlier post of outlining them...I just want to say, that, in spite of your misgivings, a public program can also do these things, and give you a good quality, competitive level program. They just need to know how...

Imagine if you, yourself, were able to get rink time at a public rink for three prime time hour slots per week, and you could bring in 30 top players, at your personal, recruiting, invitation, and you could form an elite league, The rink would provide refs at cost per game, or you guys could provide your own volunteer refs and scorekeepers, however you want to do it. And each player would have to pay $20 for a season of 10 weeks (that's thirty games).

Most every Parks & Rec department I have seen would love to have a person like you who knows what the participants need. One thing I will be telling my counterparts in the Rec Dept's out there is to look for people like you. If you get the deal I just described, and you can select the guys to play, would that be cool, or what???

I'll put you on the list to get this material set in August, when we have it ready. If you can latch onto some Parks Dept employee who really wants this, that will go a long way to getting your foot in the door.

However, if you learn absolutely nothing else from this exchange, please allow me to say, "Every, that's every rink seems to have too much dust..."

Keep on rollin...

-Dan

[DannyG]

All:

Thanks! to Mike, again, for the supportive words...

If you read Ken Dryden's second book, Home Game, you will get in detail exactly what Mike is saying above...

Anybody that thinks the Parks & Rec Departments can't do this, need to check this out. It certainly can be done, and we in the inline hockey participant community have the ability to make it happen, in partnership with our respective Parks & Recreation departments all over the country...

stay tuned...

-Dan

[MDE3]

that's what happens when you only show up for one game per "season" /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

[MDE3]

I assume that is :A) $1500/"season"/ team, or B) $1500/year/ team, which would be $150.00 per player based on 10 player teams. And if they get to play 4 nights per week as indicated say over an 8 week season...... that's only about $4.70/night. about par for an open hockey charge at one of our local rinks of $5.00 per person per night. On the other hand if that's $1500/team / year at what - 50 weeks per year and 4 nights per week - damn - that's some cheap entertainment.
Correct me if I have misunderstood your post - there were some fine points that were not too clear.

[rlrhky13]

where I am an inline rink building,property and everything needed will run you about 200-300k. The building where I play now was about 550 I think. I know the loan payment alone with out any other operating costs is 28,000 a month. I am currently looking into buying a facility that just went up for sale and it has a tiny rink and a huge soccer floor and they want 650,000. and thats just the building I have to lease the land also.. Good Luck!! A basic Ice Rink here costs 3 million. I just finished building one.

[JMUDukes26]

Yeah but Canada is almost communist. Russia made some real good hockey players back in the day.

However, Schenectady County in NY built a really nice Ice Hockey rink for around 2.2 Million. It's home to 2 HS teams and a County Youth Hockey League. The facility is really first rate, well kept, and when they built it, they reached out to local hockey enthusiasts to run it. It has the best ice in Central NY, and the best hot choclate too!

[kaptainkrunch408]

Hey,
Sorry i wasn't so clear, it's 1500 a team, we play one night a week. And there's 12 tuesday teams at night. So it's 18000 a season for just those tuesday nights. 10 week season, plus 2 playoffs. and etc for monday, wednesday, and thursday night with the leagues. Sorry, college is a pain for us dyslexic people, let alone using computers with small fonts.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by kaptainkrunch408 on 03/11/03 08:37 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

[MDE3]

so about $12.50 per game based on a 10 man roster - I assume paid refs and do they supply jerseys too? If so, not so outrageous - about the same at our local rink for adult hockey

[MDE3]

lol I'm sure you may get a little response there - Russia still "makes" some decent players. I beleive the term is "socialist" and though not really in favor of it - I submit it's difficult to support that small a population spread over that much geography without a little intervention.

[RichardGraham]

Hi Dukes,

"Canada is almost communist."

LOL. Couldn't let that one slide.

Canada provides free health care for most of its citizens. I'm paying $211 a month for it. (Wish the U.S. government was paying for it, instead of offering Turkey a $30 billion dollar bribe...)

Canada gave us ice hockey. Wayne Gretzky. The coolest hockey dad on the planet -- Walter Gretzky. Gave us Neil Young. Gave us Shania Twain! /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

Canada is one of the most physically beautiful countries in the world. It treats its aboriginal population better than we ever did.

Several Canadian teams are threatening to win the Stanley Cup this year; Ottawa, Toronto, and Vancouver. I hope one of them does. (Only because my Kings have thrown in the towel and traded away Schneider and Smolinski for players-to-be-named later.) Maybe that will lessen our American arrogance a tad. Who knows? Maybe the Oilers will win the Cup again? Stranger things have happened.

Canada has a larger land mass than the U.S., but doesn't lord that over us. It hasn't attacked us in years. Canada gave us Moosehead beer and Gordon Lightfoot. It fought alongside us in World War II. You don't need a visa to travel to Canada, last I heard.

I have aunts and uncles and cousins spread out from St. Andrews, New Brunswick, to Vancouver, British Columbia. I'll bet I know more about Canada AND the U.S. than you know about your home state. /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

It also gave you Inline Hockey Central.

You're welcome. /wtimages/icons/cool.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[Wrathe]

Only problem I have with Canada is those damn geese!

Take them back already...PLEASE!

:)

[columbus_RHstar]

But they gave us Celine Deion (sp?) too :((

[RichardGraham]

Hi Columbus,

Man, I hear that. But I think she's FRENCH-Canadian. LOL

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi Wrathe,

Where do you live? Those might be turkeys. lol

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[MDE3]

Dionne lol (LIke Marcel) (see "check spelling")

[MDE3]

Et alors - on n'est pas Canadien?

[kaptainkrunch408]

Hey,
I agree, my problems with canada are bad music, take back nickel back and avril lavinge and all of those corny guys.

[Wrathe]

Columbus, OH

I work in Dublin and they're everywhere!