ice contrast to inline...

[DannyG]

thought I've seen some variations on this theme before, but "ice vs inline" and "ice/inline contrasts" found no search mode matches...

I just finished re-reading the Jim Jensen article in the Between the Pipes column (yeah, I actually read the columns, once in a while).

The article was written about two and one half years ago. I probably wouldn't have thought so myself at the time, but as I read this thing now, I am amazed at what I perceive is a real level of "ice snobbery" here.

I do not know Jim Jensen personally. I confess I don't know his resume, either. For all I know, the guy's played with the US or Canada national team for ten years,

-but-

I am appalled by what I read in this article. Especially when he tries to compliment roller hockey toward the end. While I do not believe that, currently, any non-nhl players can compare to nhl'rs for pure hockey skill, I am not buying the generalizations Jensen makes regarding a comparison between elements -both technical and tactical- of the two versions of our sport.

Before I decide to write my own column and submit it to Richard, does anybody else get the same reaction? or am I ignorant and being silly in this one?

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[RichardGraham]

Hi Danny,

Not sure what got your goat in that article, but just so you know, James Jensen is one helluva great inline hockey goaltender and a super human being. I'll have to read the article again to see if I can figure out where you're coming from. /wtimages/icons/shocked.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[sactosaxons]

Hey Danny-

After reading your post I went and read the article. I get the impression that Jensen's slant towards ice hockey is due to the fact that he's writing about his time with the Ducks, an ice hockey team! He takes the time to explain the differences he's found between the two and then goes on to tell ice coaches to wake up and take notice of the value roller is to ice. The "snobbery" exists with those ice coaches, not with Jensen, as I read it. Just my opinion...

-Joy

Hey! I think I've figured it out! It's the Ducks that's the problem, right? Just kidding....

[MDE3]

I read the article and was not left with the same impression as you. I really think his analyses was honest and maybe even accurate. But I think that wheel technology has developed so much in the last two and a half years that the gap is closer now than it ever was.

One of the biggest differences between ice and inline has always been this ability to &quot;stop on a dime&quot; from a full speed sprint and reverse direction immediately, and variations on this same theme in the ice game. Making extremely sharp cuts at full speed falls into the same category hence his remarks about lateral movement.

There is no doubt that this gap has closed recently as I watch the better skaters perform on the grippiest of wheels in inline hockey, but is the coefficient of friction now equal to ice? I dont know - maybe close. Think about the kids you watch play and do their practice sprints, and starts and stops, then spend sometime watching the same drills on ice. Look at the difference in slide distance and the time it takes to reverse direction - then decide if his comments were really snobbish or just accurate observations. And the gap we are talking about between coefficients of friction is for the latest and greatest surfaces, not for kids learning on outdoor asphalt courts, epoxy painted conrete, or a host of other surfaces that can never approach the coeeficient of friction between ice and a well sharpened skate blade - no matter which wheels are used (sorry RR Mike).

I have taught jump stops(on inline skates) to kids for years, and it takes practice, but eventually these kids got to where they could &quot;stop on a dime&quot; up to about 75% of full speed. With the new grip available that may be up closer to 90% now. But as a percentage of players who can perform this - I think inline still lags well behind ice - but it's coming.

The full speed cuts fall into the same category where the ability to perform them is dependant on a lot of practice , and the limits of friction. I think as a sport if we work at these techniques we can really close the percieved &quot;speed&quot; gap with ice. Most of what I have observed over the years relating to the difference between the two sports involves the time lost in changing direction in inline hockey versus ice hockey.

On the other hand I think if you timed players from ice and inline(with the latest and greatest wheels) in full rink sprint laps, you would be surprised at how close the times are (assuming equal size rinks)

[DannyG]

yeah, I think you're all probably right...

a) the technology has improved to narrow the speed & stopping, and agility gaps between the present and the date of the article...

b) The state-of-the-art inline skater has improved to the point where a gap in displayed ability two and a half years ago is not the much tinier (if any at all) gap of the present...

c) the article wasn't really about inline...which might simply be a manifestation of Rich Graham trying to find an article, any article, to fill the column space???

Must have been on a grumpy bent when I read it...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[DannyG]

I have to agree with the ESPN announcer who opined that if nothing else, the hockey gods are rewarding Paul Kariya for playing his heart out for years with crummy Ducks teams...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[RichardGraham]

Hi Danny,

&gt;&gt;c) the article wasn't really about inline...which might simply be a manifestation of Rich Graham trying to find an article, any article, to fill the column space???

Must have been on a grumpy bent when I read it...&lt;&lt;

Man, Dan, I think you're STILL grumpy! What's wrong with an article on a top inline hockey goalie getting a chance to play with an NHL team, and then writing about his experiences? Maybe you need to buy some RR wheels and get that free valium offer. Just kidding. /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[lguardbl]

Dan,
i just reread the article and cant relate it as dismissive of inline hockey... Thanks for pointing it out though, it was a good read!!!
A goalie...

[DannyG]

touche...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[-venom-]

meow

[missionhockey21]

"ice snobbery," I know what your talking about, and I hate it. I used to play both games, but when my ice teammates and coach started going whenever there was a schedule conflict, its just roller hockey its not that important. That really irritated me, just because they play ice does not make them more "elite." To tell you the truth I am glad about 95% of my focus is on roller than ice now.

[missionhockey21]

I would like to see the article too. I dont doubt its true, I just wanted to see how he is dgging on roller hockey.

[missionhockey21]

I think we all get defensive Danny when any thing negative gets said about inline hockey, well because so much negative is usually said. I am going to go read the article and see the points that Jensen makes.

[missionhockey21]

Paul Kariya has been one of my favorite players. Like I said before a nicer guy couldnt win the cup. And he defiently deserves it.

[Rebecca]

in re-reading the article, I did perhaps pick up on one thing though which is not uncommon, that being that roller hockey is looked upon as a form of off ice training, I wouldn't consider that negative or positive or anything that helps or hurts our sport, just a fact. Anyone else?

Rebecca

[missionhockey21]

I kind of picked that up too. Hits pretty close to home because I've had teams when a ice hockey players season starts, he stops going to roller practice and games/tourneys. In other words they show what they truly care about.

[MDE3]

LOL

[MDE3]

Hey you have to cut the "Patron Saint" of inline a little slack for his unbending fervour - especially at this time of year

[MDE3]

It's not a sin lol - ice is still a good game.

However I wholeheartedly agree that the snobbery exists, and it has been deliberately fostered at times by AA and AAA ice coaches that I have met while doing my ice coaching training. In fact the attitude was displayed strongly by some of the USA Hockey presenters at the clinics at least a couple of years back anyway.

If you want to see it in action - go to one of those courses and bring up roller hockey. Many of the coaches would not even allow their ice players to play roller - even in the off season - for fear it would mess up their ice stride.

[MDE3]

It's not a sin lol - ice is still a good game. I accept that just because I prefer inline hockey - doesn't mean ice hockey is a lesser sport lol.

I really think there is room for both on a stand alone basis and that in it's best evolution inline hockey adds some things to the ice game - as stated by Jim Jensen, but would go farther than measuring it's benefit by what it contributes to the ice game.

However I wholeheartedly agree that the snobbery exists, and it has been deliberately fostered at times by AA and AAA ice coaches that I have met while doing my ice coaching training. In fact the attitude was displayed strongly by some of the USA Hockey presenters at the clinics at least a couple of years back anyway.

If you want to see it in action - go to one of those courses and bring up roller hockey. Many of the coaches would not even allow their ice players to play roller - even in the off season - for fear it would mess up their ice stride.

[missionhockey21]

Ice is a good game, I loved it, I still do. But I would like to break down the barriers that exisist between ice and roller. I played at one rink that had ice on one side and roller on the other. And in between there was an upper level with a tv and concession stand and often the ice players would talk badly about the roller players, both of which I was friends with, so eventually I started to sit with the roller kids. I really hate snobbery:-(

[Superstar9]

Amen!!! Kariya is the man and has been since his days as a black bear at the U of M...

[missionhockey21]

Those were the days Superstar9 when Kariya was a black bear:-)

[MDE3]

I know what you mean - our old friends - whose kids continued to play roller after my son went to ice for a few years, switched to ice a year or so later. When we came back to roller - they will hardly talk to us. They think it is such a waste that my son plays inline and not ice now lol. If they even think about it anymore lol. They all used to call me about once a week just to talk hockey- now I never hear from them since we left "real hockey".

What's funny is that my son will occsionally strap on his ice skates in the summer for a few days to get the feel back - then go play against his old ice buddies in open summer hockey for a few games - and toasts them - then he leaves ice and heads back to his reality - just to shake them up a bit.

[DannyG]

I think the "real" game exists where you play it. In our locale, even if you played every possible ice opportunity, you are not going to get more than 50-60 games in a year. Inline can offer you over 500 hours of play (including over 250 games for only the average player).

Just from sheer amount of playing time, it is those kids who play inline who are the superior players. Each ice season, a percentage of our inline community goes over and plays ice. Invariably, several players are asked "how they developed their good skills." They tell 'em, and we have several new "referred converts" each winter/spring through this process.

I do believe, however, that if the roles and opportunities between the two surfaces/programs were reversed, the opposite situation would also probably occur.

I guess my point is, there is really no justification or necessity for any snobbery -either direction- to exist.

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[columbus_RHstar]

Danny,

As a player of both ice and inline, I will say that yes there are some ice hockey people who look down on inline hockey. However most of these people are people who don't play the game on either rink, i.e. parents. Outside the locker room, there is a bit of ice snobbery, people who don't play hockey but are involved with ice make up the majority of that group.

however

When in a locker room, the perception of inline hockey is, it's fun and hey hockey is hockey right. On my ice hockey team there are 2 people who don't like inline hockey. One I'm not sure why, always has, and I'm assuming always will. The other is our backup goalie. Inline irritates him because he cannot slide like he can on ice, although he does play inline and enjoys it.

So, at least from personal experience(s), I would say the PLAYERS who don't like inline are outnumbered by the pl;ayers who do. However those who don't play, yet are affiliated with ice hockey, are the mjority of the "inline-haters."

[missionhockey21]

Man I hate when the term "real hockey" is used.

[missionhockey21]

Parents are the biggest snobs imo. But columbus, I dont know about what kind of response you get from your teammates, but when I say I am going to miss a tournament to go to an inline tournament they try to convince me which is more important.

[Superstar9]

yup... seems like yesterday.. man Im gettin old

[Superstar9]

yeah.. that burns me up too, especially when I go and play ice (which is rare) I still burn all of my friends that play "real hockey" almost every day. Makes me laugh everytime.

[MDE3]

Well if you havent been a charter memeber of the "Up and Comers" club in ice hockey lol you just haven' t been anywhere "dahling". There is so much snobbery within the sport itself, that is certainly isn't surprising to see it outside the sport. There is a tremendous pecking order (or did I mean "pecker order") within the sport at all levels, from comparing which travel team of which B, A, AA, AAA level you play at, which tier you belong in (as a club), which tournaments you played in, to which High Scool team , Prep school team (being groomed now), Junior team etc. etc etc.

It really makes the internal(within the inline community) snobbery of those (only some) who play "Narch" Inline Hockey seem pretty minor. If you've been there , you know it comes from the parents of course, but it certainly does affect the kids. Fortuneately the nature of the sport itself is somewhat "self - regulatory" and can diasabuse you of false notions about your own status/ability in a hurry. Not all who coach or are involved with the sport have such grand notions - fortuneately. Perhaps because ice Hockey has become such a "rich man's sport" such cliqueish mentality seems to crop up. Ice hockey 50 years ago was the poor man's sport, since then the Demographics have changed.

Hopefully Inline hockey wiil stick closer to it's roots and remain a "sport of the people" rather than a haven of the elite.

[missionhockey21]

The one thing I have enjoyed about inline vs ice is the fact that it is kind of "grass roots." When I was little it was very easy to get friends involved in inline hockey, but ice was a different story. Too much money, time, equipment, etc. Inline is accessible to all people and hopefully that is what will push it over the edge so to say into the mainstream.

[MDE3]

It's a shame, - where we grew up in Canada - that's all you had to do with your time in the winters except for cross country skiing (trapping too lol) but the communities all had budgets to put up and maintain outdoor rinks which were useable for say 3 - 4 months of the year. Of course you got your execise shoveling these off after the snow fell.

As an example - in a small community of say 5000 people - there were at least 6 outoor rinks, and one Arena. It cost nothing to play other than equipment. The indoor arena costs were subsidized by the community as well, so the house, school, and travel leagues still cost nothing. That situation was a little extreme even for Canada at the time because it was a military camp and the government was big into it's employees(soldiers) and families being "fit" so there were sports fields and facilities for everyone that dotted the camp site.

But it was common to even towns of 10,000 people to have arenas (usually called "The Civic Center) that could seat up to 8000 people as well as rinks in every park and at every school. The arena was where you went to see the Circus or whatever "show" was touring as well as your local ice hockey stars (Men's AAA, Junior B, or minor Junior A, as well as the local "industrial leagues"). Long winters can make you really want to get out and do something lol, and there was not a lot of choice.

I only bring up this old history to contrast it to today's ice hockey and to a lesser extent roller hockey - in terms of the growth and costs of the sport.

That makes Danny G's style of program very appealing to me and I hope lot's of people avail themselves of his experience. Not to wish any lesser success to private enterprise, but I would love to see an "open access" policy to the sport on a widespread basis - for it to see the widespread success that ice hockey had, it needs the same kind of roots. It's important to mention that there are some quite successfull private rinks - who do offer very competitve rates - because they have managed to get large programs going - helping to defer the individual costs. A good community outdoor program would only enhance the future useage of the indoor facilities

[columbus_RHstar]

Yea sometimes I do get that but it usually passes over by the time I'm back, and I try to make it so I spend about half my time with each version of hockey.

[missionhockey21]

When I play both at the same time I try to split it up too. But I once got grief because I was going to miss ice practice to play inline, thats just ridiculous imo.

[DannyG]

I realize that this might be an obtuse reply to the situation that you delineate, but...

The inline rinks must fight each other (they think). Their entire set of operational decision-making parameters goes to the bottom-line-profitability of any given situation.

You are correct that is is indeed possible for such for-profit enterprises to make decisions based on both increasing the market size, and increasing market share. Unfortuneatley, it sounds like the guys in your area think only their market percentage counts. This way of thinking, of course, actually shrinks the market, which makes it harder and harder for everybody, but oh, well...

If there were a municipally operated facility that offered all the things I have been saying, this would be a tremendous thing for the area.

See if you can somehow find a municipal (Parks & Recreation?) program supervisory employee who will lend a sympathetic ear. Have him or her give me a call, email, this board, whatever, and I will share with him how his office can go about doing what we're doing...this will take a while, but definite, seeable progress can be made, and it's magic...

Let me know any way that I can help.

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[jjensen]

To Danny, and to everyone discussing my article on this board...

I wrote that article at Richard's request for all the kids who play roller so that they could share in what was a fantastic experience for me. I in no way whatsoever had intentions of putting down the in-line game. Roller hockey has been very good to me as a player, coach and spectator. I am amazed by how far the level of play has progressed in the last few years. I was at a narch qualifier just the other day talking with a couple of Bantam players and was telling them that the level of skating at their age and above far exceeds the level that the RHI had on its best day. I remember "pure" ice hockey players trying to learn how to skate on wheels every summer to compete in the RHI, and just when they were becoming fairly proficient... the season was over and they were back to their minor league ice teams. The kids today have the benefit of better wheel and surface technology, plus they are playing in a game with more structure and better coaching than was available in years gone by. Of course the pro players back in the day were trying to adapt their ice game onto wheels, and that became the template for the first generation of indoor roller players... today we see how the game has evolved into it's own sport, separate of ice hockey. I think that today it is an exercise in frustration to try and compare ice to roller. Roller has come into it's own, to the point where I really feel that a solid team of junior level players would kick the crap out of a good RHI team from the mid 90's. Don't get me wrong, the old guards would know all of the little tricks to try and even the playing field, and the velocity of the RHI shot coming from a guy who has played the last 8 months with a heavier puck I feel is definitely harder... but today's roller game has evolved past the RHI game, not only in technology but in speed and style of play.

I think that the two sports can co-exist in perfect harmony now that inline has taken the steps to develop it's own style of play. Roller hockey is a fast paced, exciting and creative game that allows it's players a freedom to spread out the floor and set up plays that ice hockey can not match. Some of the individual creativity that is displayed in the roller game is lost on ice for fear of getting hit. Ice is more assignment oriented with rigid off-side rules that lessen the opportunity for long feeds and wider passing lanes. 4 on 4 hockey allows more time and space to make a better play. Ice has the aura of playing on a unique surface. My point is that the two games are now, finally independent of one another and can be enjoyed for what they are...and I think it's great when kids like to play both, because after all in any of it's forms the fun is still in the challenge of trying to get past your opponent to put one up on the board... or in my case, keeping you guys off the board.

Thank you for taking the time to read my long winded reply.

Regards,

James Jensen

[DannyG]

Young Master Jensen, and everybody else...

I am impressed...that was perhaps the best current analyses of the two games that I have read to date...

Three years ago, at the USAHIL natonals, we walked into the Igloo and happened upon the action on floor 1...my immediate reaction was, "I hope those guys are Midgets, 'cause if they're Bantams, we're in trouble..."

They were Peewees...

The group of players now in the 15-24 year old group are indeed this new breed of player that, as Jim reports above, are totally different than ice players...period...end of discussion.

Good job, Jim Jensen...



<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[RichardGraham]

Hi James,

Great to have you on "board." Thanks for your super reply, and for taking the time to do so. I know I appreciate it!

Keep rollin', James /wtimages/icons/cool.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[sactosaxons]

Couldn't agree more! My son started playing roller 8 years ago, started playing ice about 2 years ago. Opportunities to participate on high-level teams on ice and roller have come up several times in the past year. And each time he chooses roller for all the reasons Jensen mentions. And he's got lots of company out there!!!!!

[MDE3]

Great post!

I think the attempt that roller hockey has made to take the best of what ice hockey has to offer (IMHO) and showcase it by altering the rules of the ice game, is finally coming to fruition. I personally still believe that the contact part of the sport should be included in roller hockey for reasons I have stated in multiple other posts. I believe that full contact breeds better players (more heads up, more agile feet), will not restrict the "skill moves" but only serve to highlight them with the element of "danger" involved.

Far more important than restricting full contact to protect the flow and grace of the sport, is limiting the hooking obstruction/holding interference techniques used to slow down the skaters who have developed these great skills. However this practice - borrowed from ice - has been coached into the inline game as an inherent strategy to slow down a "skating team", and must be coached out of the game as well. Penalizing that strategy into oblivion will simply emphasize Inline Hockey's dedication to promoting these skills they worked so long and hard to develop.

I also believe that the "heart" of the two games is the same, and although the execution differs more due now to the rules than even the surfaces, that fans of ice will find themselves increasingly more attracted to the inline game - simply because it offers more of the "good stuff".

[JMUDukes26]

Roller and Ice are like Cross Country and Sprinting, they're similar, and when you're good at one, you are often good at the other, but what makes a great Roller player is very different from an Ice player.

Unless you're me, who looks like an ice hockey player who has akwardly adapted to rollerblades, and still doesn't have it down to a science... ahh well.

Gary

[missionhockey21]

James, thank you for the insight into your article. I greatly appreciated it and understand where you were coming from in that article.

[missionhockey21]

I agree Danny. When I am playing open ice for adults, I am challenged. But not as challenged as when facing an excellent 17u team.

[missionhockey21]

I chose roller over ice, and never regreted it.

[missionhockey21]

Although full contact would produce such results as keeping your head up and quicker feet, imo it turns roller hockey into ice hockey. The only thing really seperating the two games would be the surface its played on. I have gotten the best of both worlds by playing both games, but I like the way roller hockey is right now. It would change the way the game is played, and alter many players. Roller hockey has been around long enough, where there are kids around 14 who have played roller hockey and only roller hockey. Completely changing the game would greatly affect the kids who never played ice hockey. Plus roller hockey has a hard enough time becoming mainstream why turn it into a game similar to ice, that will not help attract fans, they'll stick with ice due to the tradition of it. I wouldnt mind if some pro leagues tryed having full contact, but I do not think it would be good for the game as whole imo.

[missionhockey21]

You'll get the inline aspect down sooner or later;-)

[MDE3]

Well that's a long term problem.

For the kids to want to stay with inline - not all of course - but most like to have " the dream" and so need a pro league to aspire to. And in the highest of the current "PRO" incarnations - at least for the moment - are the Tournament Select Pro teams. I believe all the series have some form of contact - official or otherwise. How do you get to play at the pro level which will in all likelyhood have full contact or close to it - if for no other reason than as a concession to TV, without learning it as you grow up playing the sport? Even with contact, Inline hockey will never be ice hockey, nor should it try to be. It doesn't need to be - it can stand on it's own merits. However at the intesity levels played by the Pro's you are going to have contact - rules not withstanding. And if you want the sport to grow - then why not make it exciting to the ice hockey community as well? It doesn't have to be ice hockey, but the inherent hockey fan has always liked the "grit" part of the game. Offer a version that still has the grit, but which also has the speed, moves and flow of roller, with the added excitement that making or avoiding a good clean hit can bring.

I was watching CJ Yoder play yesterday and watching him I would be hard pressed to think he doesn't enjoy the contact - at least now that he has accepted it as part of the sport. Watch Tracy too - an Inline player from day one - Ron was cruising the rink at the end of the third period - with a 5 - 1 lead - doing his best imitation of an out of control "pin ball" - one with a "happy face" plastered to it as he clobbered anyone who crossed his path and some who just happened to be on the same rink.

My point is - that the guys who play the sport now at it's highest levels, enjoy the contact, it adds a sense of "realism" for them. And even after some monster hits, there was no cheap retaliation or fighting just some big grins. Makes the boys feel like "grown ups " now lol.

[MDE3]

What about when you are playing a select travel adult team? (Just to make sure it is apples to apples)

[DannyG]

not that my posts carry the weight of royalty or anything, but...

I must presently confess that Mike's variant, measured, logical posts on the subject of legitimate, clean body-to-body contact in our sport have finally changed my mind.

I am ready to announce to the world, that a checking-league level of play should be considered legitimate, wherever a league desires to make it available for their participant players.

I will consider such, beginning with our fall season of play.

Heaven help all of us, these are exciting times. (I have three of my closest associates purporting that my change of perspective on this issue is a certain sign of the impending apocalypse).

Good job, Mike...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[missionhockey21]

I am for limited contact, if that makes sense. Somewhere between the level we are now and the level of contact ice has. I would like some contact, because well I liked the contact aspect of ice, I would just like roller to keep as seperate of an identity from ice. There are many ways to implent some contact in the game, and thats what is great about roller hockey is that we can help with our ideas how the game will be played. But I apprecaite what you are saying and agree with some of it. Only if we are looking at the aspect of developing the sport for the pros. I think the focus should be on development first but at the same time we need to focus on how we want the game to be played. I think the best idea is to maybe have a tournament series that is full contact with youth, and really see how it will work out. From my experience a rec league is pretty easy on your body, not many hits. But once you get into travel it gets more competitive and more physical. I know I am kinding of jumping around with my ideas, but this is one thing needed to be taught to young players, how to give and take checks. Whether or not contact is implemented into roller, kids need to know how to give and take checks, because kids get hurt much more often when they dont know how to compared to when they know how to.

[MDE3]

thud!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I haven't made it plain - I am as adamant about stringently penalizing cheap shot checking as I am about having proper full contact checking as a part of the sport. And equally adamant about eliminating the obstruction, "tow along" stick checking/hooking, which is as harmfull to the growth of the sport as anything in the game. The name of the game is skate and skate some more. Along with the improved heads up and the hand skills inherent from playing roller from early youth, you will have one of the greatest spectator sports around.

[missionhockey21]

In ice or roller? In ice I am challenged, but I feel my skating is perhaps a little bit stronger, although I get outmatched physically in some cases. In roller I have an even tougher time, because the older guys are just so much better than kids my age, even though they are only a few years older.

[missionhockey21]

I think checking should be implemented into house leagues where they have an "A" level where the higher skilled players play. I think that is looking towards the future in terms of pro leagues and their full contact aspect.

[MDE3]

I dont totally disagree with you actually.

But I have to go with what I see my son play(he is 17 as well and plays MLRH, TORHS Pro series, and PIHA minors). His impression is that a good Narch/TORHS/USA Inline 17U team would be a strong match against quite a few of the adult travel teams - even some of the "low to mid level" "pro" league teams unless full contact was played. Even then he feels that the speed and dexterity of the 17U could overcome the physical disadvantages if given a few games to get used to it. But in fairness if your took the PRO teams which play at TOHRS or Narch against the 17U teams playing at the same tournaments, I really think the 17U's would be seriously overmatched. Unlike not many years ago where a lot of the "PRO" teams were adults probably averaging 28 - 30 years old and many were ice to roller converts, todays "Pro" Tournament Teams have a lot of younger players 18 - 19 etc. who have grown up with the fast, well coached inline play we see in good tournament youth hockey. The quality of the sport is getting stronger every year I watch it played and at every level.

[missionhockey21]

I agree with most of your post, its nice to find some common ground;-) lol

[Superstar9]

gotta be tough on checkin from behind and boarding.. thats soooo important.. w/ out it.. people will end up on stretchers and you'll have lawsuits on your hands

[missionhockey21]

I agree, the refs have to call that, and not let players get away with hits like that.

[MDE3]

lol

[MDE3]

the rule is simple - all contact must be intitiated from the shoulder forward - no exceptions, parelleling the high sticking rule - you are responsible for your body position while on the rink. If someone turns their back on you at the last second - you must avoid the hit - not try to - avoid it. If someone else try's to check you and turns his back to make the hit - in an obvious attempt to create a penalty, unsportsmanlike conduct will be called(discretionary call because that will also happen accidentally) What this does is take "running" someone out of the game, because if they turn away and you are out of control and make contact behind the shoulder - then the penalty is assessed. Obviously there are circumstances where contact or bumping occurs on a more minor level where the contact is made behind the shoulder, it is a referee's discretionary call as to whether it was a hit or a "bump" (like fighting for the puck along the boards).

If an injury results from an illegal check - the player responsible must sit out the same number of games as the injured player in additon to whatever penalty the situation called for. I believe that this same system should be in effect for any injury that is caused by slashing or other illegal hitting (knee on knee, slew footing, turtling etc.

Second part of the rule. Hands must be below the shoulder when making contact - not your own shoulder, but that of the checkee. Obviously normal cross checking and high sticking rules apply as well.

Simple rules.

In order to make an effective check - you must first be a very balanced and effective skater. Checking cannot be taught until the youth skating skills are developed to an A level - probably like ice age 12 and up.(sorry guys) and only at the upper levels so bad habits are not engrained from attempting to check before the skating levels are fully developed.

Some of the biggest gains will be an improvement in backwards skating techniques as well as lateral movement techniques while skating backwards to keep your "check" in position at high speed.

Not much of what I have proposed is "new" at least to the game of (ice) hockey, but simply requires stringent enforcement of existing rules to make the sport safe. The matching time for injury rule has been proposed may times, but I think it should be in effect now. Obviously this type of penalty is severe and should only be imposed when a deliberate attempt to injure or flagrant ignoring of the rules occurs causing the injury. For example - a player is checked by another player and his stick is swung as he is falling out of control. The stick strikes another player causing an eye injury and an extended absence from the game. As long as it was evident that there was no deliberate attempt to take advantage of the situation by the falling player, then no matching injury time should be assessed.

Observance of the rules as stated in here will go a long way to eliminating the "head first into the boards neck injuries" and make the whole sport more appealing to parents and schools who have grave concerns about serious injuries and liabilities from the contact version of the sport.

[JMUDukes26]

I think this year's CRHL Nationals were a nice compromise. While guys who tried to plaster other players sat for 2:00 for roughing, they let us play in the corners, and put a shoulder into someone. One of the big differences in my transition from Ice to Inline was the amount of stickwork. I played a bit of NARCh in January, and I was amazed at all the hooking and little whacks with a stick. I think some contact is necessary to keep everyone sharp, and intense. That said, my feeling is one of the things that makes Roller Hockey great, is the more level playing field. You have to be an exceptional Ice hockey player to be 5'10 these days. In the ECRHA, some of the best scorers are the small, fast, shifty players. In some ways, I think it makes games more interesting to watch, and showcases the players who are really good hockey players, regardless of size.

Just my 2 cents...

Gary

[DannyG]

This NOT relevant as a "reply" or further enlightenment on what Mike has just said above. Indeed, what Mike has just said above is exactly what needs to produce a great game with legitimate contact as a component for the enjoyment of both the players and the fans...

Another tack on this, however, might be:

Initiate a contact level roughly equivalent to what the sport of soccer assesses in its "shoulder charging." Essentially, what this would mean to inline hockey is, any body contact that comes about "fairly and evenly" from "stick-on-stick, hands-on-hands, or shoulder-on-shoulder" would be legal. You can envision the resultant body contact generated by any of these three points of contact will be fair and even. "Let the guy with strength and balance then move his opponent off the play cleanly."

Frankly, the sport of soccer has used this rule for over a century. The referees in the sport are even given a specific set of "application parameters" to use in assessing the fairness of a given play. These "instructions to referees," actually in the rule book itself, delineate very closely the attitude and aptitude of what the above discussion refers to as "referee's discretion."

Just a suggestion, sometimes it pays to look at what works in another sport, and how an application of it might work in ours...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[DannyG]

Excellent point, one that I don't think has been batted around this board before...

One of the greatest components of this game is that physical size is neither a help nor a hinderence. I can always tell a quality inline organization in an inline tournament (and this applies all the way up to nationals) by the fact that their team of players comes in all sizes.

To be sure, there are still those teams out there, especially the ones that come from rinks where their travel team roster of ten is picked from 200-300 players, who do appear to have selected their group of gorillas as to whoever the ten fastest gorillas are.

Whenever I see a couple of little, lightening-quick, deft-touch, chimpanzees in the mix, then I know my team is in for a real game.

If what we are talking about in terms of full-contact checking will destroy the ability of the smaller player to play, then I am not sure that we want that...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[MDE3]

Your observation about the amount of "stickwork" in roller is correct I believe. I have seen it for years in all the divisions.

Interestingly in the full contact versions I have watched that is much less of a problem. I think TORHS is making a concious effort to address the stickwork, but it is difficult because it has become such an ingrained habit in so much of roller hockey. I think a clear understanding of how the game will be called prior to any tournament conducted through team/referree meetings - will greatly reduce the frustration of trying to reduce these incidences. It may take several tournaments for the players to get used to not hooking and chopping and stick obstructing - but it will be well worth the effort. Again the skaters will be able to strut their stuff - and for those who find themselves anable to cope without all the hooking to slow down the skaters - get back to the basics and improve your skating.

As far as size goes, even at the Narch Pro and Tohrs Pro levels, there are still lot's of smaller skill players who excel - contact or not. The difference with ice contact and roller contact is the four on four game and the open floor without offsides. With all that extra skating room, this format greatly neutralizes the physical size advantage, and actually favors the nimble skater. The physical player trying to make an open rink hit tend to find themselves out of the play more often than not. TORHS Pro limits the contact to "against the boards" technically, but the they really only seem to call major impact hits in the open rink.

The "stickwork" you mention is one of my pet peeves with the game, and does more to reduce the free skating inherent to inline hockey than contact ever will.

[MDE3]

Reply - see above.

Combined with the limitations of "shoulder forward hitting" and the open space created by four and four with no offsides, the size issue will be moot. If you are a large player trying to make a big hit on a smaller skilled player and you miss - you are penalized three ways - first for appearing to "pick on" a smaller player which immediately aggrevates your opponent, second for taking yourself out of the play, and thirdly by looking foolish. It becomes a self policing issue in a way.

Obviously we would assume that a larger player with equal skills to the smaller player could have an advantage, but just the difference in mass alone tends to favor the smaller player in terms of directional changes and stopping ability - again neutralizing the size advantage. Your analogy to soccer becomes very relevant here.

[Superstar9]

MDE3,

"If an injury results from an illegal check - the player responsible must sit out the same number of games as the injured player in additon to whatever penalty the situation called for. I believe that this same system should be in effect for any injury that is caused by slashing or other illegal hitting (knee on knee, slew footing, turtling etc."

I LOVE IT.. Put it in the books for MLRH!!!

[Superstar9]

I agree.. cost me my season this year

[Superstar9]

Thanks Danny.. 10 fastest gorillas and a couple little chimps.. gave me my laugh for the day!!!! LOL good call

[missionhockey21]

I think that its an excellent idea Danny. If its worked in soccer for so long, why not roller hockey?

[missionhockey21]

Having a variety of size on your team is a must. I have never seen a team of lightning fast or incredibly big guys, beat a good balance team.

[missionhockey21]

Thats now how I'll refer to hockey players as. lol

[sactosaxons]

and the goalie's an orangutan???

[DannyG]

Given to being colorful characters, I thought perhaps baboons...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[sactosaxons]

I'll never watch hockey the same way again... gorillas, baboons and chimps - oh my!!!!

[missionhockey21]

Baboons would fit pretty well;-) lol

[missionhockey21]

I smell a new Disney movie, bringing back your's and mine favorite movie star, Most Valuable Primate, better known as MVP. Him and all the other monkeys of the jungle on a team. lol

[HockeyDad51]

My son is the hockey player in our family. Last summer he played ice hockey for the first time. He played on the elite team at Disney Ice in Anaheim.
In some respects I found snobery. His coach even made a duragatory coment about roller hockey. That's especially surprising since his best players were roller hockey players!
My observations/impressions of ice hockey as it compares to roller hockey, are only based on the teams I watched that summer. The ice players seem to spend all there time hitting and avoiding hits. This detracts from their techincal game. It apeared as though they didn't know how to play hockey (that was my impression, not a critique).
Overall however, our son's quick passing and stamina was definately improved!!

[RichardGraham]

Hi Danny,

This is GENERALLY on topic...

This year, I've played one full season of inline hockey and I am currently in the middle of my first ice session this year. Here are some of the differences that pop to mind:

Inline: Hot, sweaty, near fainting at times. Thank heaven for the fans that Coast2Coast installed near the players' benches.

Ice: You get sweaty on a shift, and by the time your next shift comes, you're cool and ready to go.

Inline: For a "non-checking" sport, there's probably just as much hitting going on as in ice hockey.

Ice: I've received penalties for roughing that were ignored in the inline league!

Inline: At Coast2Coast, if you get three penalties in a game more than once, you're kicked out of the game and have to sit a game, AND you must sit out the game in the stands! (The owner, Ken Gibo, is a church minister, hence the rule.) I've talked to several players who've played one season there and moved on. Penalties are a part of hockey, and I believe the Lord should be the final arbiter. /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

Ice: Playing ice hockey with people who have inline hockey backgrounds but know nothing about ice hockey can be VERY frustrating. I can't tell you how many times breakaways from the blueline in have been snuffed by offsides so far this season.

Inline: EVERYONE can hear what you're saying, it seems.

Ice: The sound often doesn't seem to carry past the immediate vicinity, so you can have quite an INTERESTING conversation with an opponent that no one else hears.

Inline: Skates rolling across tiles can sound like a train clickety-clacking down the track.

Ice: Skates stopping suddenly sounds cool!

Inline: Shots from the red line are likely to score.

Ice: Shots from the red line are as rare as my ice team scoring...

Inline: Referees often seem young and inexperienced.

Ice: Referees often seem arrogant and antagonistic.

Inline: The camaraderie at Coast2Coast was over once the game was over. (It was an older Adult division; a lot of players had families and responsibilities.)

Ice: We're going out as a team to our sponsor's restaurant this Wednesday night.

Well, that's just for starters, but I agree with Joe Noris: Both inline and ice hockey are great, just like strawberry and chocolate ice cream are great. One doesn't trump the other.

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[missionhockey21]

Wow, those are real cool observations Rich :)

[RichardGraham]

Hi Mission,

Thanks. You play both, how about some of your observations? I'm interested.

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[missionhockey21]

I'll post some of mine tommorow, I am just too tired to post any right now. lol

[NLane]

A comment from my son...Girls wear halter tops to inline games, not EVER at ice games.

[Yekcoh]

hehe ... very nice observation =)

[rlrhky13]

Best observation I have seen yet....LOL
Seriously though as an ice and in-line player, Richard you pretty much hit the nail right on the head.. Although one of the differences here on the east coast is in both ice and in-line we all hang around the rink together after our games... Might just be the ages or something but for the most part all the teams hang around after we beat each other to death on the surface and ice... LOL The reffing observation was exactly right also...

[missionhockey21]

I am going to follow your format Rich for the most part.


Inline- In the summer you feel like dying because it gets so hot, and never before does ice water ever taste so good.
Ice- I still get very hot, but I think with the temperature of the rink, you cool down, and are "fresh for your next shift.

Inline- The physical play changes for me, sometimes it is very aggressive and othertimes I wont even get toughed.
Ice- Its pretty consisitenly aggressive, you got to keep your head up for sure.

Inline- The reffing, unless its a major tournament series is from poor to fair.
Ice- From the experience I have had the refs are pretty consistent and call the important ones.

Inline- You can hear the trash talk all the time, even what people in the stands are saying.
Ice- For some reason very little trash talk gets heard by me or other talk, I guess thats been one of my problems with my coaches when they wanted me to come off. lol

Inline- when someone is playing on a Spourtcourt with their clickety clack Vibe chassis, it really annoys you.
Ice- Every thing in Ice sounds cool, a slap shot, a stop, evening dekeing someone.

Inline- Its easier to score from the red line, less people block shots due to lesser padding than ice.
Ice- See above

I agree with you statements about Refs Rich.

Most annoying thing about Inline- Rolling pucks
Most annoying thing about Ice- Short shifts (I am greedy with ice time I guess) lol

[sactosaxons]

One of my son's favorites: you can spit on ice!!!!

[hckygoalie31]

Yep...Tell Ian I was thinking the same thing!

Come to think about it...we could use some cheerleaders!
RHI had em, why not??