Mercy Rule

[RichardGraham]

Hi Folks,

I'm curious as to what you think of the mercy rule.

(I believe it's an eight-goal lead in NARCh; in the league I'm playing in, it's 10 goals.)

Last Monday night, we mercied a team 10-0 with about 10 minutes to go in the game. If I hadn't been coming back from a five-hour flight from Orlando (via Memphis), I probably would have wanted to play out the entire game.

When you're approaching a mercy-game win, what do you do with the time that's remaining -- go for the quick kill, or practice passing, defensive breakouts, etc.?

(Conversely, does a team on the losing end appreciate the winning team slowing down the pace, or do they just want to get it over with?)

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[LuRules]

I've only seen mercy rules used in tournaments, never in leagues. If teams are experiencing 10-goal differentials in league play, it seems to me that either the losing team needs to drop down a level or the winning team needs to move up a league to make the games less one-sided and thus - eliminate the need for a mercy rule during league play.

However, if I did play in a league with a mercy rule, I'd rather play the whole game and get my money's worth than quit early.

~L

[MDE3]

As a coach in tournament play I always wanted my kids to work as hard as they could - to see what character was there - so the mercy rule kind of put a limit to the test - sometimes a good thing. In league play - where I assume you see the same people repeatedly - I would assume that either one team was very short of top personel, or they need to reevaluate the team selection process.

[DannyG]

Part of playing sports is learning to play with dignity and grace, no matter what the "problems of play." Kids (and adults, let us all face this) need to learn how to play when our team is ahead 13-2, and well as when our team is behind 2-13.

Our local rule is ten goals. Since we play with a stop-time clock, when one team goes up by 10, with the next face-off, we go to a running clock. Should the losing team bring the margin of the lead back to within 7, then the clock returns to a stop-time situation.

We reason as follows: the players on both teams deserve the playing time of the full game. All players have individual reasons for playing the sport, they deserve full measure of what they pay for, with both their money and their effort. However, "let's get the massacre over with" has some merit, also. So we play the entire game, just speed it up somewhat. We also reason that, should the down team simply get the next goal, that does not present a fundamental change in the nature of the game (the USAHIL rule book says to go back to a stop clock if the margin drops to 9). Even "a second goal by the down team does not a comeback make." However, we draw the line should the down team get a third goal, to bring the differential back to only 7. We reason that, hey, they might be able to pull something off at this point, and their new efforts now deserve a shot. They get the stop-time clock back.

Our league does have several historical anecdotes of the team down by ten getting the next three goals, which we call "getting back the clock," and then "charging back up the hill of adversity, coming back to win the game." Has happened maybe half a dozen times in the seven years we have been doing this, so these occurences are rather legendary, but that's what makes up the local "lore of the game."

[JohnHockey1798]

We really don't have a mercy rule here. The only thing I have ever noticed is that they stop putting goals on the score board when your lead is 10 goals. The league officals also tell the top players when the lead is 6 goals that they need to start sandbagging/not try. THe biggest comebacks we have had is a team down by 5 goals came back to win. I have been beaten by 10 and have been on team where our lead was 10. Usually I try to work on my passing and slapshots when we have that kind of lead.

JOhn

[NoGoals]

As a goalie, I have been beat by that kind of margin before, and I have never played with a mercy rule. It is not something that happened or happens alot, but it has happened. I will tell you my feelings. When I am down by 10, I just want the game to end so I can end the suffering with some cold adult beverages. Games like that are frustrating for the team that is losing and the last thing the goaltender wants is for the other team to start showboating and hot dogging..i.e. trying to lift the puck up and score from behind the goal.
It also frustrates the rest of the team. If the winning team is just playing keep away and passing the puck all over, fights will break out.
I guess after my rambling, I would have to say I like the idea of a mercy rule.

[columbus_RHstar]

Our house league doesn't have a mercy rule p[er say. We have a pain-in-the-ass hat-trick rule. Which says a player can only score 3 goals throughout the course of the game, including overtime in the playoffs. Also if a player has 3 goals and the game goes into a shoot-out, championship only, the player is not allowed to shoot. This negates the need for a mercy rule however we have had teams tht have goalies not show up and have lost by around 10 goals.

There are many types of mercy rules but if I am on either side a mercy rule I want to finish the game and get what I paid for.

[DannyG]

All rules are arbitrary, but...I must admit that this hat trick restriction does what I call, "penalize excellence." To do so, does not produce "the most opportunity for success for all players."

That rule's kind of a bummer...

[ClarkAddison]

That hat trick thing is a new one on me. I know as a coach that if I have a kid that is capable of scoring at will in the house league I challenge him to get three assists for every one goal. Not a rule, just a philosophy. It changes his mind set from individual to team play. It helps his teammates improve as well as they learn how to get open for him.

I've seen too many superstar 8 year olds quit when they get to be a 12 year old because they don't score 5 and 6 goals a game like they used to. Only because they've never been taught how to play the team game. I love playing against individual players. They are the easiest thing to defend.



http://www.eteamz.com/ChillDawgz/images/NPMikeShot.jpg

[DannyG]

my hat (trick) is off to Clarke on this one...he is absolutely right in pointing out that scoring prowess alone is not "excellence."

I have finally allowed one of our Peewee Division, offensive aces to join the travel team I coach...this after long consultation with the kid's father.

Monday night training, I confronted (at his father's request) our 12 year old scoring ace. Here's a kid with very high skills, who could skate rings around everybody when he was eight. Now, everybody can skate, but Tony still has this intimidating slaphot. He perennially leads the youth division in scoring, but...his stats are like, 45 goals, 6 assists...

I pointed out to him that a) it was not a coincidence that his tournament team got mercied at regionals, every game last year, and b) he has not played in a single division championsip game in rec league play in six seasons!

The kid plays in isolation from any teamates, then blames teammates for team defficiencies. In fact, my daughter loves to draw Tony's team in the playoff semi's, 'cause she knows all she has to do is shut Tony down, he has no clue how to tactically use any of his teammates, and it virtually guarantees Caitlin's team will make it to the division finals every time.

I still am not sure that a hat-trick-restriction to scoring is the key, but I wholeheartedly agree with Clarke that you must address the scoring-at-the-expense-of-everything-else syndrome.

[DannyG]

incidentally, the yardstick for highly skilled players in rec league play is:

"How do your teammates react when you get the puck, do they instantaneously burst into action, cutting into passing lanes and spaces, because they know that you are looking to get 'em the puck, or do they just stand there and look at you, 'cause they know that they won't be included in the play no matter what they do?

"As the coach of our Peewee travel team, I look for the players whose teammates all explode into action, whenever they get the puck!"

[ClarkAddison]

To me its one of the hardest concepts to teach a young skilled player. He knows that if he passes the puck to one of his teammates it will probably result in them losing the puck. He also knows that if he keeps it there is a good chance of them scoring. It's hard for an 8 year old to care about his long term career.

The problem is compounded by coaches putting winning the game over long term teaching. All I can do as the program director is stress to the coaches, parents, and players the long term goal. Some get it, some don't.

Another technique I stole from a magazine. I read about a coach who at the end of every game would hand out hockey trading cards. One for every assist, one for every 5 goals. I'm not as enthused about the results as the coach from the article was but at least it offers an excuse to talk about the team concept every game and practice.



http://www.eteamz.com/ChillDawgz/images/NPMikeShot.jpg

[missionhockey21]

When I was younger in house league, I'll admit that I wanted to dominate so I scored as much as I could, and I dont think thats wrong if somebody wanted to do that. But if a house league has players of that capability that can score like that they need to be spread around to the teams of lesser talent, as I was. I dont agree when coaches put a restriction on scorers, but I do agree with the mercy rule. It was 8 goals for our league and since I played on a fairly lousy team we lost a lot like that. And I perfered to just get the game over, end the suffering, because when a team basically plays keep a way from the other team, its embarrasing. I rather just get it over and forget about it. I remember once, probably in 10u the other team was trying to do the flying v from the mighty ducks movies, and I never felt so ashamed, it was like rubbing the loss in our faces. But in terms of when faced with a mercy rule option, most of my coaches wanted us just to pass the puck with no shots, even though I never agreed with that, but my opinion isnt worth much in that argument ;-)

[missionhockey21]

I had to learn the hard way growing up, I was on a team from about 7 to 15. Our orginization had both house and travel. And basically my house team quickly developed into a travel, with about 7 puckhogs, 3 defense, and a goalie. That worked awhile but as we got older it got much harder for a team that had one guy straight up bringing the puck down. Fortunatly for me, I had my dad and my coach develop me into a passer, and even though it wasnt my favorite descion I hated losing so I complied. I already had pretty good passing ability because I learned that very well in ice. Well to make a long story short as we got older almost all of us had a larger pass-shoot ratio than we did before and it all came together for us. I've often had tournaments with 0 goals and 10+assists. I think it is hard to get a little kid to pass more than shoot, everyone wants to be the star, but once goalies become tougher most of them will drive away from the shoot at every chance mentality, even though I know some 16yr olds who still never pass the puck after playing hockey for 10 years. lol

[ClarkAddison]

The ironic thing I'm learning as I reach the twilight of my own career. Passing is the only bullet you're left with.



http://www.eteamz.com/ChillDawgz/images/NPMikeShot.jpg

[missionhockey21]

Ypu can have a lot of things go wrong with your game, but you can always fall back on your passing and still have a good game in my opinion.

[MDE3]

First of all one of the "traps" in getting kids to pass instead of taking it by themselves, is that you may tend to inhibit the growth of the skilled youth player. In house leagues are the place you develop your skills. There is nothing more frustrating to a kid who has finally got to where he can skate and handle the puck and get him "some of that glory", than having a hundred parents yelling at him to pass when he knows that 9 times out of 10 it's a give away.

But if you really want the kids to learn to pass - first teach them how to see the rink - ie skate and handle the puck with their heads up, and how to skate without the stick being a third leg. If these things are taught well from the inception, the other problem just seems to fade away. Have you ever watched a triple A Mite team(8 and under)? They look like a miniature NHL team the way they move the puck. Now all these kids were probably all stars in their back yard rink, but someone got to them early enough so that their building blocks were in the correct order. (not everyone can afford the time or ther money to get that much practice) But the closer you approach teaching the game as a pyramid of skills - the less of an issue this will be.

And the real issue is learning to recognize who has the best opportunity, not passing for the sake of passing. There are times to pass, times to keep, times to shoot, times to regroup etc. as you all know. Give the kids this knowledge as they get their skills and you will have the best of all worlds.

My son was the penultimate "end to end kid". He was so much faster than his teamates(as he grew through in-house and travel) and got so intimidated about passing that he would wait at the far end of the rink for a teamate to arrive to pass - afraid to shoot or score. It took me almost two years to get him to score again. I was his instructor, not the coach (I couldn't handle the parental attitude if I as his father/coach had let him play his game to it's max)

That's where the philosophy about "time to pass time to shoot" etc. came from. See the game so you can make the best decision for the team. If it happens to be scoring - then score, if it's making a pass, then make the pass. But the key issue is having the understanding and vision of the game to make the right decision.

[columbus_RHstar]

Maybe I should explain why the rule was put into effect...

A few sessions ago we had a player in the younger bracket and he would score 6, 7, 8 goals a game. And his team won the championship agasinst the team that the league president's son played in. So the president makes up this hat trick rule, next session same thing happens and other parents complained enough to get him moved up after that 2nd season. Then the winter sesion rolled around and there were 6 teams and 4 kids signed up as goalies, so the 2 team without goalies rotated so every played in net. And some of these kids never played goalie before and the teams would be getting beaten by 6 and 7 goals, but not mercy ruled.
So the president puts the hat trick rule in all the divions and all of a sudden next seswsion ice hockey kdis come in and when they were told about the new rule almost everyone capable fo scoring 3+ goals was outraged so alot of people left and the league lost alot of money because of what I and others believe was the fact that the presidents son wasn't winning.

[columbus_RHstar]

My Dad and his friend who taught made me learn to shoot with a straight blade, no curve at all. When I would play ice games with a straight stick I had way to much trouble lifting the puck so I had to pass the puck or my teammates got mad for me screwing up.

It doesn't matter how but I think all kids should learn to pass before they learn to shoot. Just like the old way of if you learn to skate backwards first you will be a better "regular" skater.

One benefit of passing is that if you take a shot in a 2-on-1 and don't score the blame is on you. If you make the pass and you don't score you don't get blamed. But the downside of that is someone else has to get blamed, and blame is never good.

[missionhockey21]

I've gotten blame for my passes a lot even if they were on target, if they didnt score they the shooter would always complain. lol

[gekigangarIII]

It's not just the jr. leagues.. the adult house leagues are *notorious* for having "stacked" rosters... it's odd to see a couple CYHA players on a freaking "E" (no experience) league game.

The reason the rule was adopted (3 goal) was because nobody would enforce or police the leagues into making teams that actually fit the experience level. Oh, there are rules on paper, but nobody seems to enforce them.

There needs to be a governing body that polices these leagues, you get B and C players in D league that rack up goals for their team and outskate everyone else in the league, it's not fun for the players in the league (it's house league it's supposed to be fun, we all have jobs where we can get beat up all day). I just can't imagine it's fun for these a-holes that dominate an obviously inferior (talent wise) league night after night.. it's sad.

It just creates frustration in the lower leagues, where people are learning to play and just trying to learn about the game and have fun.. which means more people drop out, which means less money for the leagues.

There should be a talent pool or a draft IMO. There just insn't enough diversity from team to team.. it's funny, in the same league you can have 5 teams that absolutely suck (which they should, they're LEARNING) and 2 or 3 that are filled with players that should obviously be playing in a league or two above.. that go out and dominate night after night...

shameful

[RichardGraham]

Hey gekigangarIII (man, that's a tough one to abbreviate!),

How about this?

A player scores more than 10 goals more than the rest of his teammates and he has to move up into a higher division: MID SEASON. (I'm talking 16&U; obviously, kids aren't sandbagging -- their parents are.)

Dumb idea?

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi Lu,

So as not to give my real age away, let's say I'm playing in an 80+ division. Obviously, there aren't many of us, and the league wants as many teams as possible.

Few 80-year-olds want to drop down to the tougher 70+ division, where there are fewer players with arthritis and prostate problems. As a result, if you don't have a mercy rule, teams are going to quit once they get beat too badly, and probably rap their canes on the heads of the league administrators. Hence, the reason for the mercy rule.

(I'm just guessing. Me? I'm with you. I'd rather play the game out and try to break the opponent's goalie's shutout, or at least be able to say, "Well, at least SOMEONE scored. lol.)

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi MD,

Sometimes, several players don't show up, and stuff happens. We lost a game earlier this year, 4-0, to a team that we'd tied 5-5 in OT in our first game. Our leading scorer had a scheduling conflict and didn't show up.

If they'd raced out to a 10-0 lead, I'd still want to play -- since I'd paid full price for the league. However, I do understand that games can get out of hand when a team has no chance of coming back, and I'm sure that's what the league hopes to avoid -- a bunch of old farts throwing their hearing aids at each other after the game.

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi Danny,

Dignity and grace? Are you talking about figure skating, or hockey? /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi John,

I think your league's solution seems reasonable. However, do player stats reflect the goals that are scored after 10-0?

And what do you do when you're down 10-0? Pull out your rifle? /wtimages/icons/shocked.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi NoGoals,

I can understand your feelings completely. My guess is that you never would go down 10-0 if your team played any kind of defensive style. I also understand how showboating would raise anyone's blood pressure. That's when violence follows, I think. I appreciate your perspective, even considering the fact that I consider all goalies except my own EVIL! /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi Columbus,

That hat-trick rule seems absolutely insane to me. If you have a player who scores more than four or five goals a game, his teammates should gently use a cattle prod and give him the hint: PASS! /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[missionhockey21]

We had a kid in the junior olympics a few years back, I think his stats were 15 goals 1 assist, and I think the assist was unintentional. lol

[RichardGraham]

Hi Clark,

Great philosophy. I have a feeling that's part of the reason why USARS named you Coach of the Year. Keep up the good work.

>I love playing against individual players. They are the easiest thing to defend.<

Agreed.

I remember playing a pickup game in the (lit by street light) parking lots in Santa Monica against a guy who seemed to score a lot of goals every game, but he never passed, and he was extremely cocky.

I thoroughly enjoyed shadowing him the entire night. He never scored, and I never saw him play at that particular parking lot again. Yeah, baby! /wtimages/icons/smile.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[missionhockey21]

Your goalie is always the exception to the rule, you wouldnt know what to do with out him, yet anyone else in net you despise :-)

[DannyG]

Okay, Mr. Journalist...

The paragraph was a general-to-specific thought pattern...the second sentence defined the terms of the first sentence. "Dignity and Grace" were shown to be the correct, respectful, positive attitude a player needs in the face of being on (either end) of a lopsided scoreboard.

we also note...

There is an old style concept called "the spirit of the game..." What this says is that a true sportsman will play as hard as he can, but take pride in never straying over the line of good sportsmanship, respect for the rules, officials, opponents, teammates, etc...it is this spirit that is lacking in younger players who take pride in 15 goals, 1 assist, and take no respectful measure of anything else in the game...

dude..look what you made me go and say...

[RichardGraham]

Hi Mission,

Damn right.

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi Danny,

You're a better man than me. I understand where you're coming from, and I salute you for it. I just wish I could congratulate the guys who slash me, bash me, trash me, and then watch them parade to the penalty box as my team gets power play after power play. Instead, well, you know how I respond. LOL.

(And I thought "the spirit of the game" was the choice of alcohol picked after the contest was over. Dumb me!)

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[RichardGraham]

Hi Mission,

That's curious. All my GOALS are unintentional /wtimages/icons/smile.gif

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[LuRules]

Hmmmm... sounds like you need to start a campaign to get more 80+'ers interested in the game so you can have divisions in your age groups ; )

I find I'm having to do the same for some of our co-ed and women's leagues. ; )

[gekigangarIII]

Heh, sorry about the name... you can call me Geki. ;)

I think that's a great rule! One that would eliminate all of the "problem" players.

Though really, the real problem is with enforcement. Our league leaders are just too nice. They do a good job and they're good friends with most of the players, but they just don't put their foot down on people. It's not like they don't know the people that are dominating.

I've actually only seen one case where a player was asked to move up...

But I really like your idea Richard. Probably the best one I've seen.

[MDE3]

I'm sure you wont have much difficulty finding 80 year olders willing to particpate in your leagues -with of course appropriate incentives /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

[gekigangarIII]

I'm telling you.. selfish offensive individual players are anyone with 1/2 a defensive mind's greatest gift!!

The funny thing is, for 99% of these players you don't even have to shadow them all night. Just a few stick lifts, moving them physically off the puck, and tying their stick up before a shot early on in the game is more than enough to rattle them for the entire game.

They're so caught up in scoring that when they don't the first couple times they get so frustrated they ruin themselves... and it's SO freaking rewarding when you're playing D, because you can see your results right away! :)

[MDE3]

That works where multiple skill divisions are availbale - in many cases in smaller areas there is no place to "move up"

In these smaller type leagues - what we have done is have a preliminary session where every player is rated form 1-10 based on skills (unfortunealtely not really game play) and then arbitrarily construct teams so that the total of the "talent" numbers are the same - or at least within a point or so. This was for U 16 house leagues.

When we did this the average goal differential between teams was less than one for the entire session. Of course if one or two of the talented plyers were missing on a tean then..... but that's going to happen.

[missionhockey21]

I've had a few of those, passes that found theirway to the net, I amusually very suprised by my teamates ruching me so I am like, yeah I totally meant to do that:)