View Full Version : TORHS Winter Cup comment
01-09-2003, 12:14 AM
The TORHS winter cup finals were in Feasterville PA this past weekend. I thought they ran pretty well. But the one big problem was, yes, the reffing.
The announcer for the championship games said that the refs were from California, and so I asked about it and someone else said that they fly in a few of their "best" refs to do many of their tournaments. Then they get other local ones to fill in the gaps.
Well, this method of doing things proved disasterous. Our games would be reffed differently from rink to rink and you never knew what would be called and what wouldn't. One set of refs would let everything go, and so you go to your next game and that set of refs calls the most trivial penalties. The refs would in some cases be so far apart in terms of interpretation of rules, both teams were getting frustrated out there.
There was also a lot of complaining about how the refs seemed to be moving slower 'than the pace of the game.' The players should not be waiting for the refs to make it back to the face off circles. There is a clear system for when goals are scored and face offs are done as to who retrieves pucks so as to minimize game delays. I had a player's dad ask me why it was taking them so long during a squirt playoff game.
If TORHS is reading this, if you are going to fly refs in, you should train them so they are all on the same page. But better yet, why don't you just use the best refs in the region the tournament is in? I know that the refs that normally do Sportsplex tournaments are part of a crew that does games all over the East Coast, why did you pass them up? I could name at least 6 refs that not only know the rules better, but that would have taken pride in their work and reflected your organization better too (I won't even go into the conduct of some refs, but lets just say having earrings in and running your mouth to players is about as unprofessional as it gets).
Just my .02. Other than this, it was a fun tournament all around.
01-09-2003, 03:23 AM
I don't want to totally belittle TORHS with my comments, because they do so many great things that I really feel set the standard for tournament series, however I agree that they have a serious problem with officiating.
The problem however, isn't one of the referees themselves, it is the style of play that TORHS endorses. I believe they need to hold their refs accountable to call more penalties. NARCh is certainly physical in nature, but the normal high sticking, cross checks, and hooks are told to be called. I saw an open rink hit during the Mudcats - Snipers game that made my bones hurt. No Call, but then again was anything called? The talk at Sportsplex the past three days has not focused on the wonderful things TORHS does, but only about how violent games were. Is this the reputation TORHS wants?
I suggest that TORHS take a long hard look at their philosophy, but then again if we continue to show up and pay them their $495 then what power do we have and will they really care?
TORHS is still not NARCh, let face it.
torhs is a very good tournament series. tony is very visible at all the tournaments and talks to everyone. good luck finding that personal touch at narch.
however, i do agree that the officials were a little suspect last weekend. there were a lot of missed calls. i think that the officials at times are confused about where to draw the line as to contact along the boards. the only thing that i ask for of an official is to be consistent. they consistently called nothing all weekend, so i guess i can't complain. i just think the officials are not all on the same page.
i'm also not a big fan of how our (pro division) schedule was set up. the game times were great - no complaints there. i just wish that they didn't put all the games in a block 10 minutes apart on three different rinks. you can't watch any of the games. it's not an issue of scouting, (at that level there isn't much you don't already know about a team) i simply like to watch a good hockey game. just some thoughts.
01-09-2003, 01:28 PM
GROWL.....TORHS Pro is full contact, I believe.
demon...they say it's supposed to stay along the boards. from what i hear the hit in the cats/snipers game was not along the boards. it wasn't just that one hit. there were many. that is where the inconsistency lies. i don't mind it, just be consistent!
01-09-2003, 02:13 PM
I actually played in that Sniper/Mudcat game. I thought it was a very physical game and that it was too physical. Believe me I love the physical game and I was throwing my body around out there(what I have), but it was just ridiculous what was going on out there...
01-09-2003, 03:11 PM
Hey, I don't know about the next guy, but until I sign my $1 million contract to play roller hockey, I still have to get up the next day and go to work ;) I'm not a skating mass of muscle like Mr. Ying over there; I play my contact roller hockey conservatively!
Although Ying, I do remember wedging myself in between your legs like a toothpick trying to stop you last year during a PIHA game.... did I hear a "Yeehaw!" when that happened??
naz, you probably heard more than that!!!
01-09-2003, 03:58 PM
inconsistency is a good point... that hit in the cats/snipers game was brutal and then the next day in the sharks/snipers game there was a hit in the open like that not as hard but the sniper guy still fell and there was a call and a goal scored on the pp b/c of it.... refs have to all get on the same page
01-09-2003, 05:42 PM
The inconstancies were seen and yes a few games did get out of hand. Sometimes seeing the referee questioning his partner about a call isn't what you want to see. But as much as I saw it this weekend I can say that I've seen it everywhere. Local or distant. The stick work was supposed to be kept to a minimal and there was a huge interpretation to the word minimal. Using the local ref's would not have cut this down. I feel that TORHS has to just to address the issue at hand with their referee crew. These guys reff games like this all the time. They don't go from non check games to check games. Locally I would say that a reff going from non check to check would be more prone to questioning himself on a call over just making that call with authority. The out of towners at least don't care the out come of the game and can't be called homers. I have watched some of the other tournament series referee's do the same and question if they even have a whistle in hand. Try to express yourselves in an email to TORHS so that they see there is a problem. I'm sure that not only will you get a responce from TORHS but with as many post that are generated on this board you might even see a difference. You don't know unless you try. Crying on the boards is not addressing the issue at hand. Give it a try and communicate with the tournament people. If you get no satisfaction then by all means post away. But it's worth a try. TORHS email address is: [email protected]
The Winter Games were exciting and the competition was great. Was nice to see so much talent in a weekend in all divisions. Seeing the Best of the Best or should I say Some of the Best because there wasn't any West Coast teams represented was nice.
01-09-2003, 09:45 PM
I also was surprised at the officiating at The TORHS winternationals. Being involved with youth hockey in tristate area I know that the officials that do the tournaments around the Phila, Nj and Delaware area are 10 times better than what torhs bought to their winternationals. as a coach and dad the officials were unprofessional (looking and acting), and the calls were inconsistent and i could never tell what they were calling because they rarely gave a signal, there for i had to ask what the call was. i was surprised that none of the local area refs were not there. i thought i saw a few of them watching the games. the guys i saw are excellent officials (why were they watching?) Enough about that TORHS runs an excellent tournament all the kids loved it the atmosphere around the rinks was outstanding. i hope everyone else had a good trip also. i know my drive was only about 2 hrs i know alot of others had some long drives
01-10-2003, 12:51 PM
Well, a direct comment made to me by someone one the top of the TORHS food chain was, "We would like to make the game more like and ice hockey game with the strong physical play and clean hits." This was after asking about some of the hits on the court. to which my response was, "This is roller hockey where most of the players do not where chest and shoulder pads or girdles, much less mouthpieces."
If the equipment was required then go for it, but until it is you can't allow that on the court! A Major injury hasn't happened yet but when it does that person will own TORHS and the rink that it happened in.
01-10-2003, 01:09 PM
actually, they most likely wouldn't own TORHS.. they're covered against that kind of stuff, as well as the rinks... the person who was injured most likely wouldn't get a dime....
01-10-2003, 01:25 PM
But the insurance company would drop them like a hot potato.
There is a valid point made here. No insurance company would support the kind of play that TORHS is allowing, when there is no requirement for full protection.
01-10-2003, 01:29 PM
ph i disagree with you... as inconsistent as we all thought the reffing was at wintercup the local nj ny pa refs are a thousand times worse... watch any local tourny or MLRH game in the area and it will not take you long to see that torhs refs are better than local ones b/c they do not care about the outcome of the game.... i do agree with you however that they looked and acted un professional... cursing @ players and coaches is thier first problem... and if players arent suposed to wear jewelery why are the refs allowed to??? to me refs should look and act like the tournament series they are representing... not the case here b/c tony is 1st class and they were not even coach...
01-10-2003, 02:09 PM
Well, I am one of those "local refs" you refer to, and I for one don't even know who half of the local teams are anymore, let alone care who wins. The refs that I associate with don't either and would be offended if the implication was made.
Sure, there might be some guy out there who is a homer, but it is unfair to characterize all of us as such. There's a lot of guys around here who can call a pretty damn good game. We have no interest in any teams, local or otherwise.
We do have an interest in the integrity of the game, however, and many of us have backgrounds that easily compare to even the most experienced coaches and players. We have nothing other than the interest of the game in mind.
MLRH is different, in my opinion. There is absolutely NO training to do MLRH games, which involve checking and fighting among other things; refs are doing it on almost a voluntary basis. Therefore, I think you'll see differences in how games are called until everyone is on the same page. You don't think NHL refs just showed up one night with a whistle and a pair of skates, do you?
01-10-2003, 02:43 PM
wow....... it's THAT bad?
sheesh, I'm surprised the refs would let it get like that...
01-10-2003, 03:07 PM
Well, in the Pro division it is what it is. And all players know this and can deal with it. But in the younger divisions, I think it's just one intentional, injury-causing hit and angry parent away from becoming much worse.
01-10-2003, 03:46 PM
bottomline, thanks for your opinion , what MLRH games have you seen from philly area me and my kids have seen 3 this year and there is no way you can say the refs that did the MLRH where worse I think they were better than the TORHS ONES.outta the three ive seen all three had the same gentlemen with a different partner ( dont really remember names) so actually ive only seen 4 but they called a good game. as for youth tourneys i have no complaints about the guys i see all the time they ref at alot of different rinks,
maybe its just me but i think they do a good job.
Very good point - it would certainly behoove MLRH to have some kind of ongoing referee training for their style of play as it is different from most all other roller hockey played. The refs could maybe attend some ice hockey reffing schools at an advanced level - not of course for the rules so much as for understanding how USA Hockey interprets the rules, and maybe emulating their standards of what is clean hitting and what is not. Also specific rules of how to handle the fighting and when to issue majors, ejections and double minors etc. Not that they dont have any idea, but it would be good to have a consistant standard of referee judgement as well as giving them some more confidence in handling the more elevated physical play - not the sort of information generally supplied at roller hockey referee clinics.
Observation - my son who plays - has had less hacking scars in "Major League" from errant sticks or deliberate stick hooks to the arms and upper body, than almost any of the other roller hockey he has played. The worst being USARS tournaments where using the stick freely on the upper body seems the norm - there and inhouse. Maybe focusing on making hits has reduced the use of the stick on the upper body.
01-11-2003, 01:07 PM
USA Inline ice refs have experience with checking. The Destroyers, and now the Warriors have a ref that had the USA Inline quals and has 4 years MLRH experience. Ice starts checking so much earlier so when will inline house leagues wake up and start playing offsides and with checking. That is how refs in the NHL start off, right? With the lesser leagues and get experience then move to the bigger leagues.
01-16-2003, 03:19 PM
Addressing a lot of different comments made by different post's and maybe summing up in general. Quite a few would say they don't like the local crew because after seeing so much of them the whistle seems to play favorites. Some say that the out of towners are unprofessional because of the way they handle them selves. I will say that I see a lot of hockey local and distance and for the most part the reff's call a good game. I do see sometimes a game that a reff might of had in a previous game and it not go well be out of control. Both on the reff's behalf and on the coaches part. I can say that the players react when they see the coaching staff react. I for one can take a few lessons here but just as quick that I can admit to being critical during a game I can say that the reff's should be critical of themselves. I know quite a few reff's from all of the different hockey series and can say we have some very good reff's locally and some that would be good if they were to maybe open up to some criticism if not from people concerned about the game from their partners who sometime have to give excuses like I don't like to make a call in my partners end because I don't like to belittle him. Or even get into situations like having to make up a call. This happens all over. I have seen and also know a lot of USA ice reff's and will say that when a reff has a hard time keeping up with the fast pace of the game maybe he shouldn't be reffing at that level. This same thing happens with inline. The renewal of referee's test should be something that is done in a seminar type style. I have seen some of the mail out tests and can say that this is where the professionalism of something that is held in high reguards is waisted away. Many of the renewels are given to people who should not be on the surface because they are a huge liability to the establishment as well as the tournament series. Now don't get me wrong I am not knocking any of the tournament series. I have been involved in many either by participation with teams or in association with the tournament themselves. Just a general statement that no one lives outside of a bubble. Everyone is vulnerable. But the most vernerable people are the players who rely on the way the game is called. You can have a game that is consistent and clean and then you can have a game that get to the point that the players determine how to deal with the issues on the floor. These are the games that I hate to see because these are the games that you wind up with injuries, suspensions and in some cases a loss of a prominent hockey player. All I say to the Reff's is that when you put on the stripped jersey you are the judge, jury and the executioner. Take those words with pride and remember that what you call or don't call could make a huge difference in what could be an enjoyable game or a disaster.
Now Local or Out of Towner's sometimes it's good to head a little criticism it might make you a better person and also make it easier to put your head on a pillow with a clear conscious. I as a coach am reviewing my ways too. We all could learn something.
01-16-2003, 04:08 PM
Well said. I am an administator, coach, player, and referee for both ice and inline. Yes, there are poor referee's out there. There are also very good ones. What I try to instill in my coaches and my players that in a course of a year the calls even out. You hit it right on the head, the players and at times parents feed off of the coach.
I've also found that the teams that b**ch the most end up getting more calls against them. A self fulfilling prophecy. On the other hand, a team can build a good reputation by letting the ref's do their jobs. As good or as bad as they are going to do it. I make it a point after every game to have my players and my coaches shake hands with the ref's and thank them for their effort.
After the game, if there was a disputed call, I'll ask the ref's interpretation of it. It's amazing how in dealing with the ref's professionally will reduce the minor infractions against your team.
As a referee, if I am spoken to in a professional manner, I will return in kind.
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