Improving the selection process.

[BEEZERAL]

I don't know what everyone else thinks but this week really showed how flawed the selection process is, especially when it comes down to the last few at large bids. It's pretty telling when the 18th seed and what was rumored to be the 16 seed make it to the finals. Watching FGCU play this week they played consistent with how they played most of the year and at regionals. How were they the last team selected to get a bid???

First thing I would change is to put more emphasis on strength of schedule and less strength on actual record.

[FWKRTJ]

Unfortunatley it's too hard to figure a SOS because no one really knows how good each conference is from year to year. Things are always changing.

[MBurke]

I don't know what everyone else thinks but this week really showed how flawed the selection process is, especially when it comes down to the last few at large bids. It's pretty telling when the 18th seed and what was rumored to be the 16 seed make it to the finals. Watching FGCU play this week they played consistent with how they played most of the year and at regionals. How were they the last team selected to get a bid???

First thing I would change is to put more emphasis on strength of schedule and less strength on actual record.


Unfortunatley it's too hard to figure a SOS because no one really knows how good each conference is from year to year. Things are always changing.

Which is where I think selections are extremely difficult. It's tough to leave home a team with 3 losses on the year for a team that's .500, especially when it's highly unlikely those teams have common opponents or that other regions have seen both teams play.

[LstLineOfDfense]

Ian Prescott (NU) made a very good point on Kevin Smith's radio show on Friday. If you want to prove your region is considerably stronger than, say, the SCHL, fly into Houston, and beat their best teams at an interregional. Ian's right, its not an expensive airport to fly into, and it greatly improves the selection process

[BEEZERAL]

Which is where I think selections are extremely difficult. It's tough to leave home a team with 3 losses on the year for a team that's .500, especially when it's highly unlikely those teams have common opponents or that other regions have seen both teams play.


Mike, I understand your point, but I have to disagree. There are conferences that traditionally are weaker and are traditionally stronger. A conference like the SCHL has been weak outside of North Texas for a long time. there is no real reason that that conference deserved a 2nd bid. With all do respect to New Orleans, they were outclassed by pretty much every team in DII this week, and I can sympathize with a team who finished with a weaker record in a traditionally stronger conference who got left at home. (it almost happened to us).

When the league directors figure out who gets bids, you guys need to put more emphasis on the conferences. I know it is very difficult and awkward to tell a colleague that I am sure you have a good relationship with that his conference does not match up to another, but it needs to be done. What is worse, potentially upsetting a friend, or denying a group of deserving guys a chance to represent their school at nationals. I know it is easier said than done, but it needs to start happening. This league is about the student athletes and we need to think about doing what is right by them. This was an outstanding DII tournament, but look how close we were to not even having the champ and runner up not even invited. We got there by the skin of our teeth and if rumors are true FGCU was the last team invited.

It was obvious by looking at the results from the secrhl that Miami, FGCU, ECU, and Bethel were all very close in terms of talent. Yet the committee felt that Miami and FGCU were way behind Bethel and ECU. Any player from the SECRHL could have told you that was not the case. I know Ed Luther did everything he could to get all 4 of us at large bids, but at some point the committee over ruled him. That is where the mistake was made.

I know it is difficult to predict where each team deserves to be, but it can be done. If a dumb kid like me can spend 20 minutes looking at box scores from around the country to figure out where in the rankings his team belongs so can the NCRHA.


I know my post seems a bit harsh, but it is meant with all do respect. I really enjoyed meeting you this week and was blown away by how honest you were with me that the NCRHA made a mistake by not inviting my team. You are a class act Mr. Burke and the ECRHA is very lucky to have you as its representative. I now know why the ECHRA is so well respected by the NCRHA. Thanks for a great week at Nationals and I hope to see you there again next year.


P.S. I know Rob said we couldn't put our own plaque on the trophy because the league wants one with all the past winners on it, but its been 10 years and that still has not happened. UM is more than willing to pay for a plaque that equally honors all past winners as well as leaves room to add names to it. How do you recommend I get the ball rolling on that?

[MBurke]

To be fair, I don't think the box scores fully prove where Miami and FGCU should have been. I certainly believe you should have been invited, but I think you were placed properly in pools based on the information available.


Take FGCU: http://ncrha.org/team.php?team_id=54331&area=schedule - One win over Bethel, but no wins over anyone else I would have ranked ahead of them prior to the tournament.
Or Miami: http://ncrha.org/team.php?team_id=54329&area=schedule - Lopsided win over SHSU but they weren't highly ranked in my book. I'd have FGCU ahead of you and no other notable wins that jump out at me.

ECU and Bethel, on the other hand, had convincing wins against teams from other regions and DI. I don't think I can overstate how much going to another region and beating some nationals-caliber teams helps your cause.

Every region does everything they can to try to represent their teams well in that selection meeting - Ed did that for SECRHL as did the reps for all other regions (for the record, I did not serve as the ECRHA's representative for this meeting). We're not at liberty to share the order of bids, but the pools do give at least some loose indication of where teams were picked (typically teams in Pool A and B were selected before C and D, save for auto-bids).

A couple things I weigh in voting, even though I didn't vote this year:

I don't believe in giving "historical" regional strength much weight. Roughly 25% of the league turns over every year, many of the teams from DII moved up last season, and if I'm not mistaken Tampa is the only team from SECRHL the past several years that made noise in DII at nationals. While it's really easy to say "SCHL has struggled historically", I would not feel comfortable keeping a team with a good record from ANY region home without some solid proof they didn't belong at nationals (read: head-to-head vs. other regions or common opponents).
Some close losses are okay, but without some wins/splits against those same teams, it's tough to invite a team with a poor record. This has bitten the GPCIHL before when teams play Lindenwood 5x in a season and lose every time by a few goals. Are we to assume the team is competitive with Lindenwood? Does Lindenwood just not run the score up? Does the team sit back in a box in an attempt to "lose by less"?


Ultimately what I think the problem stems from is the fact that we have too little time and information to do a really thorough review of teams. It's not like we have game tape to review. Most of us haven't seen the majority of the teams we're considering for bids. On top of those factors, we have to get all of this done within 48 hours of the end of most regional championship tournaments and none of us do this as a full-time (or even really part-time) job.

What I'm most interested in is how we can alleviate some of that lack of info. Do we have teams put together an info packet to help us at the meeting by supplementing the raw numbers? Do we use some kind of RPI-like system to get computerized rankings? Do we implement a type of "coaches" poll to supplement rankings by the selection committee? Should we move the selection meeting back so it's closer to nationals? (note this would affect travel availability and costs most likely).

Anyway it's late and I'm probably to the point of rambling with work in 5.5 hours - didn't I already not get enough sleep for the last 10 days? Let's work towards suggestions - NCRHA is certainly open to them. The info we use (game results) can be construed and interpreted many different ways. Let's improve that info so there's less chance of overlooking a deserving team.

[uconnhockey1]

Well put, Mike.

Beezeral, I get and can sympathize with what you are saying, but it really is pretty difficult to look at a team's record over the course of the year and determine who the 16 (or 24 for Div. I) best teams are. Look at the NCAA Men's BBall committee this year- how many people were angry when VCU got in, over Alabama/Colorado/VTech- and the rest, as they say, is history.

Selection is an inexact science, at best. Regional directors are really only limited by what they have seen in their region and their interregional event. Unlike NCAA sports, we don't have the liberty of watching SCHL, GPCIHL, SECRHL, etc. games on TV or any sort of tape. Mike is spot on- game statistics and final scores can possibly give us an insight to what happened in the game, but it doesn't really tell the story about that game. Did your goalie stand on his head to keep it a 1-2 goal game? Did one team play a very conservative box to keep the score close? Sometimes a 3-1, 4-1 game isn't as close as it seems.

Last year's nationals, Stony Brook helped out a slew of ECRHA teams by going to the SCHL region. They took out their 2-5 ranked teams (I believe) by a pretty decisive amount, which really helped the selection process for Div. I- especially ECRHA. There were many teams with better records in the SCHL, but because the 6th or 7th place team (at the time) in the ECRHA went there and showed how strong the region was, the ECRHA got a lot more bids because of Stony Brook's work.

Again, this selection proces is an inexact science at best. I get why you are upset about it and want to improve it, I think we all do. The question really is how, and the constructive criticism/suggestions from everybody is really important for this process and the league as a whole to move forward. I am not saying there is an ultimate solution to this problem, but hopefully we can come up with something to keep improving the process.

On a side note- beezeral, congrats again on winning Div. II. You really couldn't have asked for a better ending. You guys were a class act on and off the rink.

Jesse Creek
ECRHA

[BEEZERAL]

The info packet idea may work. I know I had a ton of arguments for my team on why we should get a bid to Nationals. Obviously not every team can state their case live, but allowing each team to send in a power point presentation with a few slides can't hurt.

Just want to repeat that I'm not bitter at all towards anyone over not getting a bid originally. I knew my team was good enough only because I saw what our potential was. It took until nationals to finally play the way I knew we were capable of. Our regular season was record was a product of us not living up to our potential, a very tough schedule in terms of opponents and game times, and the general strength of the secrhl in all 3 divisions we have.

Thanks for all the kind words, and hopefully this thread can help improve the process.

[GoRangrHky]

Jesse made the perfect point- if the NCAA didn't expand it to 68 teams this year, VCU isn't in the Final Four. How many teams from the "historically good" Big East and SEC made the Final Four? The same exact number as the "historically... ?" CAA and Horizon leagues.

The ECRHA this year had what almost all would consider their FIVE best teams all make the jump up to DI this past year. While historically good, doesn't that change the landscape of that region a bit? (ECRHA had half of the DII elite 8, half of the DII final four, half of the DII championship in San Jose)

[islanderfan]

Selection process is always tough. The only person in the nation who gets to see most of the teams play is Rob Coggin, and he does not get a vote on who goes. I would think that as the Director of League Operations and Officiating he is in a unique position to lend credence to the selection process. I believe he is fair when ranking talent and teams. I would hope that the BOD has enough confidence in his decision making and game knowledge to establish a fairly competent pool of teams for national considerations. Perhaps Rob should draw up a list from his observations and that could be used as the starting point for discussion ? I realize it places a huge burden on Rob, but until the NCRHA can afford to send more people to each region, he is the only one who can see all the teams.
Inter-regional play is great IF you can get your whole team to travel extra trips. If players back out on the trip at the last minute, you can ruin your chances for Nationals and still incur the cost. The cost for my team for an inter-regional game approaches $1,000.00 each trip. We all know that kind of money doesn't grow on trees. Nationals probably run in the $5,000.00 range unless it is in your home region. A team that believes it may have a good shot at nationals will probably have a tough time getting enough money together to make inter-regional games and still be able to afford nationals. It's a lot cheaper to get one person to a region for a week-end than it is to get a whole team to another region. As long as the NCRHA has confidence in the person/people who travel to other regions, these are the best people to make the choices. I would also argue that if there were a traveling committee, each region's league director should disqualify himself for voting for any teams from his own region. Let's face it, each Director should believe that their region is the best, or they are not doing their job. A committee such as this would supply a list to the BOD to vote on.
It's a convoluted process, but so is what we have now. As long as NCRHA is comprised of club sport teams, the funding is not going to be great for most schools.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll shut up. Congrats to all the winners and participants at Nationals this year. Hope to be there next year.

Jerry Remsbecker
Kansas State University Inline Hockey Club
Faculty Adviser & Coach

[BEEZERAL]

Selection process is always tough. The only person in the nation who gets to see most of the teams play is Rob Coggin, and he does not get a vote on who goes. I would think that as the Director of League Operations and Officiating he is in a unique position to lend credence to the selection process. I believe he is fair when ranking talent and teams. I would hope that the BOD has enough confidence in his decision making and game knowledge to establish a fairly competent pool of teams for national considerations. Perhaps Rob should draw up a list from his observations and that could be used as the starting point for discussion ? I realize it places a huge burden on Rob, but until the NCRHA can afford to send more people to each region, he is the only one who can see all the teams.
Inter-regional play is great IF you can get your whole team to travel extra trips. If players back out on the trip at the last minute, you can ruin your chances for Nationals and still incur the cost. The cost for my team for an inter-regional game approaches $1,000.00 each trip. We all know that kind of money doesn't grow on trees. Nationals probably run in the $5,000.00 range unless it is in your home region. A team that believes it may have a good shot at nationals will probably have a tough time getting enough money together to make inter-regional games and still be able to afford nationals. It's a lot cheaper to get one person to a region for a week-end than it is to get a whole team to another region. As long as the NCRHA has confidence in the person/people who travel to other regions, these are the best people to make the choices. I would also argue that if there were a traveling committee, each region's league director should disqualify himself for voting for any teams from his own region. Let's face it, each Director should believe that their region is the best, or they are not doing their job. A committee such as this would supply a list to the BOD to vote on.
It's a convoluted process, but so is what we have now. As long as NCRHA is comprised of club sport teams, the funding is not going to be great for most schools.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll shut up. Congrats to all the winners and participants at Nationals this year. Hope to be there next year.

Jerry Remsbecker
Kansas State University Inline Hockey Club
Faculty Adviser & Coach

My team is in a very simmilar boat, but it costs us about $5000 to travel to a different region because of the exorbitant cost of flying in and out of Miami or Ft. Lauderdale. Interregional play is difficult, and you are right, it is much easier to send one person to watch the different regions, rather than send an entire team.

I disagree with you slightly on the role of each league's director. While his priority should be to support his conference, his first priority should be ensuring the growth of the entire league. It is bad for the league to see one-sided scores at nationals. It does not create a lot of interest from outsiders. A league director knows the caliber of play. They have been around hockey all their life. They should be able to watch a game between two teams and determine if they could be one of the 16 best teams in the country. This could be aided, by the NCRHA sending its conference rep's to watch other regions compete. If he SCHL's rep had taken a trip and watched Binghamton, Pittsburgh, Slippery Rock, and Drexel play, don't you think he would have seen immediately that New Orleans didnt match up to them? You don't always need to see two teams play each other to determine which team is better. Again, NO DISRESPECT to NO, TT, and the SCHL, but your conference was the easiest example to use. We played two teams from your conference this year and you both were extremely classy and fun to play against. our game against SHSU may have been the closest 11-2 game in hockey history (it was 3-2 going into the 3rd).




On a similiar note that is unrelated to this thread, I heard something very troubling said by one of the tournament directors.

"It does not matter how many people actually show up, as long as we sold a bunch of tickets"

This couldnt be any more wrong. How can we expect this league to grow if we can't even get people to show up and watch the games at Nationals. I know the league needs every penny it can get, but actual fans in the building should be almost as much of a priority.

[hockeykid12]

Strength of schedule is hard to use but if you look at the records ya figure Neumann and west point had a case this year, they each had to play wcu rutgers Rowan twice while Uconn beat up on rhode island 2x and really were in the weaker division in the east, nothing against Uconn real good team, but there strength of schedule wouldn't be nearly as good as neumann or west points.

Inter regionals I know are huge to teams in d1, but what weight can they hold if a top team goes and plays 3 games against the bottom teams of that region and another do-so team goes out and gets beaten by the top teams in that region? I think the regionals need to be scheduled better to put top teams against top teams that way it really shows what each region offers. Rowan going down south and beating up on the last place d1 team really shows nothing about Ecrha against the scrhl.

Most people that play ncrha are stat rats and are always looking at what teams did that weekend, so a coaches poll or somethin of the equivalent could be useful if it was unbias, or even better if the directors of each region at the end of every month rank the teams within there region top to bottom. That would give about 5 different rankings to fall back on when selection comes. But again that all needs to be done unbiasedly. But to come up with a real top 25 college rankings would be more than unlikely dice nobody sees every team.

I also think that we all know regions are stronger than others, so when it comes to fair bids for regions that needs to be forgotten, just because the east gets 7 bids doesn't mean we keep an 8th team out so the south west can have a second team in there that is going to get smoked. There are regions that an 8th seed would beat another regions 1st.

As always there are going to be teams left out that feel they should be in there. But getting it as close as possible is what they do best. Long beach winning shows that once there anything can happen, a 12-6 team or whatever winning shows a lot of change in the d1 league this year. Hopefully teams will be more level from here on out and are able to compete with lindenwood year after year.

[BEEZERAL]

I also think that we all know regions are stronger than others, so when it comes to fair bids for regions that needs to be forgotten, just because the east gets 7 bids doesn't mean we keep an 8th team out so the south west can have a second team in there that is going to get smoked. There are regions that an 8th seed would beat another regions 1st.



exactly this.

[NUHockey72]

I also think that we all know regions are stronger than others, so when it comes to fair bids for regions that needs to be forgotten, just because the east gets 7 bids doesn't mean we keep an 8th team out so the south west can have a second team in there that is going to get smoked. There are regions that an 8th seed would beat another regions 1st.

In that case the Long Beach v. Lindenwood game should not have even been played.

I feel the best way to achieve in what everyone's opinion would be a better system to attempt to come to a consensus and develop a rule change to submit to this year's Board of Directors meeting. A lot of people forget this is our league we determine both regionally and nationally the direction this league can go (granted its a feasible request). I believe truly that if enough noise is made about having an RPI rating/coaches poll, or a traveling "Scout" to measure the competition from region to region, to help decide nationals; a change most likely will be made.

Beezeral you for sure are one of the more outspoken people on this board, and I don't always agree necessarily with what you say; however bringing this topic up is something that can seriously be rectified this off-season, if you would like I would be more than welcome to help get the ball rolling with creating a proposal. Because I, like you, would like to prevent a Drexel, Miami, Northeastern, or a Sonoma St. type-team from being snubbed by a Denver, Stephen F. Austin, Texas Tech, or even a Western Michigan type-team next year. Less than 25% make the National tournament for DII, as opposed to the 55% for DI, lets make a collective effort to send the right ones.

[FWKRTJ]

To be fair, Western won the MCRHL playoff against us in D2 (There was a controversial no-goal in the final seconds but that's besides the point). If anything, we at Ball State were the second team to come from the MCRHL (and I believe we proved we belonged, playing close games all weekend). On the other hand, you're right, Western didn't play like a Conference Champion in Nationals. I can't comment otherwise because I didn't see any of their games, but I'm sure Mr. Thumme can tell us what went on.

[islanderfan]

I disagree with you slightly on the role of each league's director. While his priority should be to support his conference, his first priority should be ensuring the growth of the entire league.


I agree with you here, but, human nature being what it is, if 2 teams are close, most people will pull for the home team. I know most of the directors personally and I know they do a great job, but even if there is no bias, their is a strong possibility of an APPEARANCE of a conflict of interest.
I'm not saying they shouldn't have input into their own region's team selection, but they shouldn't vote on their teams. They should always be strong advocates for their teams. If all regional directors excused themselves from voting on their region's teams, it would all balance out.

Again, not a perfect world. It's a tough job but it is an important one. Getting it right will make all games at Nationals good, tight games. Getting it wrong deprives student athletes who deserve to go to Nationals the memories of a lifetime.

Jerry Remsbecker
KSU Inline Hockey Club
faculty Adviser & Coach

[MBurke]

Okay my first post here was eaten, but abbreviated version:


Rob and I saw multiple regional events this year and always do offer insight/input where we have it. That said, we see at most 2-3 games per team and that's not always a good picture of the team's body of work. One hot or cold weekend can swing things quite a bit.
When selecting teams a majority (4/7) is required, and generally the discussion will continue until we have unanimity or only one in dissent. Additionally we throw out the high and low rankings when working on pools to try to mitigate some of that bias.

[BEEZERAL]

In that case the Long Beach v. Lindenwood game should not have even been played.

I feel the best way to achieve in what everyone's opinion would be a better system to attempt to come to a consensus and develop a rule change to submit to this year's Board of Directors meeting. A lot of people forget this is our league we determine both regionally and nationally the direction this league can go (granted its a feasible request). I believe truly that if enough noise is made about having an RPI rating/coaches poll, or a traveling "Scout" to measure the competition from region to region, to help decide nationals; a change most likely will be made.

Beezeral you for sure are one of the more outspoken people on this board, and I don't always agree necessarily with what you say; however bringing this topic up is something that can seriously be rectified this off-season, if you would like I would be more than welcome to help get the ball rolling with creating a proposal. Because I, like you, would like to prevent a Drexel, Miami, Northeastern, or a Sonoma St. type-team from being snubbed by a Denver, Stephen F. Austin, Texas Tech, or even a Western Michigan type-team next year. Less than 25% make the National tournament for DII, as opposed to the 55% for DI, lets make a collective effort to send the right ones.

absolutely. while it is likely that I am done playing in this league, I want to leave it a better place. Im definitely down to help write a proposal.

I was the one who lobbied the league to allow goalies to be the recognized captains of their respective teams

[bearcats_roller]

My team is in a very simmilar boat, but it costs us about $5000 to travel to a different region because of the exorbitant cost of flying in and out of Miami or Ft. Lauderdale. Interregional play is difficult, and you are right, it is much easier to send one person to watch the different regions, rather than send an entire team.

I disagree with you slightly on the role of each league's director. While his priority should be to support his conference, his first priority should be ensuring the growth of the entire league. It is bad for the league to see one-sided scores at nationals. It does not create a lot of interest from outsiders. A league director knows the caliber of play. They have been around hockey all their life. They should be able to watch a game between two teams and determine if they could be one of the 16 best teams in the country. This could be aided, by the NCRHA sending its conference rep's to watch other regions compete. If he SCHL's rep had taken a trip and watched Binghamton, Pittsburgh, Slippery Rock, and Drexel play, don't you think he would have seen immediately that New Orleans didnt match up to them? You don't always need to see two teams play each other to determine which team is better. Again, NO DISRESPECT to NO, TT, and the SCHL, but your conference was the easiest example to use. We played two teams from your conference this year and you both were extremely classy and fun to play against. our game against SHSU may have been the closest 11-2 game in hockey history (it was 3-2 going into the 3rd).




On a similiar note that is unrelated to this thread, I heard something very troubling said by one of the tournament directors.

"It does not matter how many people actually show up, as long as we sold a bunch of tickets"

This couldnt be any more wrong. How can we expect this league to grow if we can't even get people to show up and watch the games at Nationals. I know the league needs every penny it can get, but actual fans in the building should be almost as much of a priority.


Speaking personally, my team did an interregional AND nationals this year, while only receiving 4500$ from the school, which does not even cover the ECRHA league fee, just saying.....

[kevinsmithAZ]

It's gotta be RPI or Region based. Otherwise a nation-wide coaches poll is no different than what we have now; people with an impact on the decision voting one way or another without having seen teams play.

[bearcats_roller]

It's gotta be RPI or Region based. Otherwise a nation-wide coaches poll is no different than what we have now; people with an impact on the decision voting one way or another without having seen teams play.

Even leagues with RPI/strength of scheudle have issues. Look at March Madness this year. Teams with weak ass RPI's like VCU get in over teams with stronger ones and look what they did getting to the Final Four. It happens every year, college football too. But I guess it's like picking your poison, cause RPI is the best way to do it, there really is no other way. There's no debating that the SECRHL, ECRHA and WCRHL are the top 3 leagues, it doesn't take a genius to look at the scores of the games at nationals from the past two years to realize that. The only thing the league can do now is change the selection process one way or another. Personally I think the ECRHA was under-represented this year I think one more team from the east should have gotten in, but really the only way to tell is to do an inter-regional, that is why the Board of Directors stresses this at the beginning of the year meeting. They clearly state "to be seriously considered for a nationals bid, go to an inter-regional event." Cost is obviously a huge issue but like I said, our school is in bumble**** NY and we get almost no funding, we drive everywhere and made it happen. Alumni donations, fundraising, etc. Fact is if you want to go to Nationals, go to an inter-regional and mop the floor with the weaker teams.

[BEEZERAL]

Even leagues with RPI/strength of scheudle have issues. Look at March Madness this year. Teams with weak ass RPI's like VCU get in over teams with stronger ones and look what they did getting to the Final Four. It happens every year, college football too. But I guess it's like picking your poison, cause RPI is the best way to do it, there really is no other way. There's no debating that the SECRHL, ECRHA and WCRHL are the top 3 leagues, it doesn't take a genius to look at the scores of the games at nationals from the past two years to realize that. The only thing the league can do now is change the selection process one way or another. Personally I think the ECRHA was under-represented this year I think one more team from the east should have gotten in, but really the only way to tell is to do an inter-regional, that is why the Board of Directors stresses this at the beginning of the year meeting. They clearly state "to be seriously considered for a nationals bid, go to an inter-regional event." Cost is obviously a huge issue but like I said, our school is in bumble**** NY and we get almost no funding, we drive everywhere and made it happen. Alumni donations, fundraising, etc. Fact is if you want to go to Nationals, go to an inter-regional and mop the floor with the weaker teams.
just wondering how far did you have to travel to go to an inter regional?

[bearcats_roller]

just wondering how far did you have to travel to go to an inter regional?

We went to the one in Virginia, it was about 5.5 hrs each way if I recall correctly. I know they are further from you but there's ways to get money. You have to be annoying. Annoy the **** out of your alumni, out of your student association, club sports director, whatever you gotta do there's ways to do it. Also I think there was an inter-regional closer to you guys, I may be wrong though

[GoRangrHky]

While inter-regional events aren't for everyone (I understand that Miami is pretty for away from everyone else) it's imperative that the teams that can do it, do do it.

What I had spoken about with some ECRHA folks at our regional event was that each region dedicate a weekend just to interregional events, so that teams know when they definitely won't have regional games and can go somewhere else. I don't think it'd be a big stretch for VA Tech, Eastern Carolina, JMU, Ball State, Miami (OH), Pitt, Slippery Rock, and Binghamton to all meet in Pittsburgh one weekend. Maybe Illinois is kind enough to join you. Then you get to see ECRHA, MCRHL, GP and SECRHL teams play one another in one weekend. The only extra cost is maybe another tank of gas or two on the drive. To me, that's worth it if I think it'll mean getting my team into nationals.

[ECUHockey]

Not us anymore. We're being bumped up to DI.

[bearcats_roller]

While inter-regional events aren't for everyone (I understand that Miami is pretty for away from everyone else) it's imperative that the teams that can do it, do do it.

What I had spoken about with some ECRHA folks at our regional event was that each region dedicate a weekend just to interregional events, so that teams know when they definitely won't have regional games and can go somewhere else. I don't think it'd be a big stretch for VA Tech, Eastern Carolina, JMU, Ball State, Miami (OH), Pitt, Slippery Rock, and Binghamton to all meet in Pittsburgh one weekend. Maybe Illinois is kind enough to join you. Then you get to see ECRHA, MCRHL, GP and SECRHL teams play one another in one weekend. The only extra cost is maybe another tank of gas or two on the drive. To me, that's worth it if I think it'll mean getting my team into nationals.

Could not agree more. Pittsburgh is a great location to get most of those teams to go.

[LstLineOfDfense]

While inter-regional events aren't for everyone (I understand that Miami is pretty for away from everyone else) it's imperative that the teams that can do it, do do it.

What I had spoken about with some ECRHA folks at our regional event was that each region dedicate a weekend just to interregional events, so that teams know when they definitely won't have regional games and can go somewhere else. I don't think it'd be a big stretch for VA Tech, Eastern Carolina, JMU, Ball State, Miami (OH), Pitt, Slippery Rock, and Binghamton to all meet in Pittsburgh one weekend. Maybe Illinois is kind enough to join you. Then you get to see ECRHA, MCRHL, GP and SECRHL teams play one another in one weekend. The only extra cost is maybe another tank of gas or two on the drive. To me, that's worth it if I think it'll mean getting my team into nationals.

So at this pace... about an extra $300 per car? :P

[GoRangrHky]

Fuel up in Jersey, I guess.

My point is that it's easy to make this, or something like this, happen- we just need a few teams and regions to get on board. Yes, it does help when a team goes somewhere, but to have almost half of the regions represented in something like this would be great for the sport. On a similar note, it would be great if DI did this as well.

[GoRangrHky]

In case anyone is oblivious, I set up a Google map thing to try and mark all the NCRHA schools and rinks. Take a look at http://www.inlinehockeycentral.com/showthread.php?34820-NCRHA-Map&p=68093#post68093

[Bthumme]

I can elaborate, but I'm not going to make excuses. We did not come prepared and take the tournament serious. We had 2 practices for nationals, that's it. And our practices occur almost an hour and a half away from
Campus.

As i was telling lastlineofdefense, the type of hockey we played at nationals was fine for our region, but we just weren't prepared for nationals. And also, Denver and FGC were good teams. We were up 2-0 halfway through the FGC before our wheels fell apart (although that doesnt mean much). We were never a team to settle the puck back and group; a lot more run and gun. We certainly got
Better and if we played like we did for most of Friday and Saturday it may have turned out better for us.

However, something I haven't seen is that some teams just match up better against others, and that's something strength of schedule or previous results can't justify.

[ilovecollege]

im hearing people whining about getting 4500 from their school....

my school gaves us 800 dollars. that doesn't even cover close to the league fees.

[bearcats_roller]

im hearing people whining about getting 4500 from their school....

my school gaves us 800 dollars. that doesn't even cover close to the league fees.

just curious what school you go to. . .

schools like millersville for example get upwards of 10K and have their own full size sportcourt rink on campus, I figured 4500$ was pretty low on the scale, I know Northeastern gets around 2500$ so that's pretty low too, would expect more from a private school...

[NUHockey72]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not get it twisted Bearcat, we get $2000.00 from the generous people here at Northeastern who when I made the team asked me:

"Roller hockey? We have a club ice team, you know that right? I don't see a need for a club men's, women's hockey team and a roller team"
After we won DIII they told us.
"You have a week before you have to present that in the club sports trophy case, since technically it's Northeastern property since you bear our emblem."

Got to love administration.

[Bthumme]

im hearing people whining about getting 4500 from their school....

my school gaves us 800 dollars. that doesn't even cover close to the league fees.

If it makes you feel better we got $500....AFTER regionals, only because we made it to nationals. And since Schoolcraft got their tourney fee covered and not us, we had to pay for nationals. So yeah, not much money flowing over here either.

[FWKRTJ]

If it makes you feel better we got $500....AFTER regionals, only because we made it to nationals. And since Schoolcraft got their tourney fee covered and not us, we had to pay for nationals. So yeah, not much money flowing over here either.

Ball State use to cover 100% of our league fees when I started 5 years ago. Now it's more like 75%. They gave us an additional $600 to cover the $820 we owed for Nationals. I know Ohio State barely gets $100 for a whole year as of two years ago.

Bthumme, you guys ever considered playing on an indoor basketball court (hardwood)? That's where we practice. We play on a square surface (two basketball courts side by side). It sucks because we can only play one way (there's a plaster wall on one end of the gym) so it's like "take-back" basketball, but it's better than nothing or having to travel far away. Then again, the closest rink to us during the winter is in Cincinnati.

[sruinline16]

I would love to have a regional in Pittsburgh with a few of the conferences represented...(bias because i live 15 mins from Pittsburgh) but its a great neutral site...Hot Shots is a great facility i wish they would have more regular season events there. As funding goes, SRU gets $13,000 that we split between 5 teams. Only the top team travels and we get about $7,000 of that. That only covers limited practice time and league fees for our local league and ECRHA. In the time from when bids were announced till nationals, we fundraised over $3,000. This paid for our registration fee, hotels, and food. The only money i spent out of my own pocket was for a tshirt and some other memorabilia. its up to the guys on the team to get out there and fund raise. We sold tshirts, wristbands, and solicited donations and it worked....all in 3 weeks

[ECUHockey]

I see no problems with the selection process. Someone HAS to be selected from each region, it's just the way it is. When someone finished with an average record in a very competitive division and does not get picked, they should not be complaining. Part of making it to nationals is having an extremely good regular season. The other teams in your league were playing just as difficult schedule as you were.

[Missionhockey12]

I don't know what everyone else thinks but this week really showed how flawed the selection process is, especially when it comes down to the last few at large bids. It's pretty telling when the 18th seed and what was rumored to be the 16 seed make it to the finals. Watching FGCU play this week they played consistent with how they played most of the year and at regionals. How were they the last team selected to get a bid???

First thing I would change is to put more emphasis on strength of schedule and less strength on actual record.

BEEZERAL- I must admit that I haven't read much of this thread at all but did want to throw in my opinion. As you know I am good friends with the Shuman Bro's, Crow and Scott Johnson. I also said that Miami was the best team in Divsion II at the beginning of the season.. ONLY if they could stay out of the box and not beat THEMSELVES.

All season long that is exactly what you guys did. You killed yourselves. Which is why your record didn't look so hot at the end of the season. We played you first semester in Ft. Myers and beat you pretty easily. The last game of the season, different story we tied you guys and you came to play!!

I personally don't think the bid selection process was wrong this year by making you guys an alternate. Teams that play well in the regular season should be rewarded. We (Tampa) had a great season but had a horrible regional showing. We still got rewarded because of our season. You guys on the other hand had an ok season and did ok at regionals. So I understand the selection process and where the NCRHA was coming from.

Glad everything worked out and glad we were there to cheer you guys on. Heck of a story!!! Gives me goose bumps. Mama Shuman would be proud.

-Jeff Kotcher #12
University of Tampa

[BEEZERAL]

BEEZERAL- I must admit that I haven't read much of this thread at all but did want to throw in my opinion. As you know I am good friends with the Shuman Bro's, Crow and Scott Johnson. I also said that Miami was the best team in Divsion II at the beginning of the season.. ONLY if they could stay out of the box and not beat THEMSELVES.

All season long that is exactly what you guys did. You killed yourselves. Which is why your record didn't look so hot at the end of the season. We played you first semester in Ft. Myers and beat you pretty easily. The last game of the season, different story we tied you guys and you came to play!!

I personally don't think the bid selection process was wrong this year by making you guys an alternate. Teams that play well in the regular season should be rewarded. We (Tampa) had a great season but had a horrible regional showing. We still got rewarded because of our season. You guys on the other hand had an ok season and did ok at regionals. So I understand the selection process and where the NCRHA was coming from.

Glad everything worked out and glad we were there to cheer you guys on. Heck of a story!!! Gives me goose bumps. Mama Shuman would be proud.

-Jeff Kotcher #12
University of Tampa

I agree that we should have been an alternate based on our record. But look at FGCU. They were rumored to be the last team to get an alternate bid. They were clearly better than most of the other teams that received at large bids. It didnt take more than an eyeball test to see it.

I think the current process is pretty good. But the NCRHA needs to look at more than record. The Pool slots were determined using SOS, why cant bids be done the same way.

[danglsauce]

I think if you want to make Nationals in D2 (regardless of SOS) you shouldn't lose half your games or you should move up to D1 where you have to play out of region and where there are more bids handed out.
I dont understand why SE D2 play so many D1 and B teams. If you play a 16 game schedule you can have 1-3 games against them so they get a better variety. But theres 14 of you. Solution. Teams that can play in Florida and Georgia play each other a lot. Teams in the Virginia area can play against 3 ECRHA teams and count them as league games. and teams like Bethel and Middle TN can play against MW teams. By playing 3 games out of region that are probably closer it solves 2 problems. 1st you dont have to travel 11 hours to go to GA twice a year, maybe only go once. And those teams get a look at other regions. I don't think Cinnicinati is more than 7ish hours from TN and Bethel and i know Maine and Vermont travel about that to get to Feasterville 3 times a year.
But with a bunch of teams moving up this will be an even bigger problem because D2 will be even more spread out.

[BEEZERAL]

I think if you want to make Nationals in D2 (regardless of SOS) you shouldn't lose half your games or you should move up to D1 where you have to play out of region and where there are more bids handed out.
I dont understand why SE D2 play so many D1 and B teams. If you play a 16 game schedule you can have 1-3 games against them so they get a better variety. But theres 14 of you. Solution. Teams that can play in Florida and Georgia play each other a lot. Teams in the Virginia area can play against 3 ECRHA teams and count them as league games. and teams like Bethel and Middle TN can play against MW teams. By playing 3 games out of region that are probably closer it solves 2 problems. 1st you dont have to travel 11 hours to go to GA twice a year, maybe only go once. And those teams get a look at other regions. I don't think Cinnicinati is more than 7ish hours from TN and Bethel and i know Maine and Vermont travel about that to get to Feasterville 3 times a year.
But with a bunch of teams moving up this will be an even bigger problem because D2 will be even more spread out.


Why the SECRHL schedules so many unnecessary DI-DII games is a mystery everyone in the SECHRL wants answered.

We played more games against DI opponents than we did against teams in our own division.
if there is an interregional that is closer than Virgina I would love to know.

[danglsauce]

Yeah. I used the map giving to us and i saw you guys are between a rock and an ocean with your location. But thats why im saying all the teams down South can play each other twice. Even if you dont see the Northern teams until regionals you still get to play all D2 teams and you dont have the problem of playing D1 teams.
But the reasoning behind so much inter-division is because there are only a handful of D1 and B and it wouldnt be as fun if you play the same 5 teams 3 or 4 times. I like Nationals because you get to play different teams and I think thats the goal.
But well have to wait to see who moves up and stays the same before you can figure these problems out for next year.

[Bthumme]

Ball State use to cover 100% of our league fees when I started 5 years ago. Now it's more like 75%. They gave us an additional $600 to cover the $820 we owed for Nationals. I know Ohio State barely gets $100 for a whole year as of two years ago.

Bthumme, you guys ever considered playing on an indoor basketball court (hardwood)? That's where we practice. We play on a square surface (two basketball courts side by side). It sucks because we can only play one way (there's a plaster wall on one end of the gym) so it's like "take-back" basketball, but it's better than nothing or having to travel far away. Then again, the closest rink to us during the winter is in Cincinnati.

School says it scoffs up the floor, plus we would have to pay for someone to watch over us for every hour we skated...

[CSteamer]

I didn't read the whole thread because it is too long, but I have one suggestion about a better way to gauge the talent of the leagues in a given year.

1. (the more expensive way): Have the selection committee attend each regions regionals to watch the games and make informed decisions

2. Film the games at each regional, and have the selection committee watch the games before making selections. I know this is time consuming and it wouldn't be full-proof, but it may definitely help. Therefore, if there is a debate between two teams, the film could be used as a tool. I know some teams have bad games, but it may help somewhat.

Just my $.02

[CSteamer]

Why the SECRHL schedules so many unnecessary DI-DII games is a mystery everyone in the SECHRL wants answered.

We played more games against DI opponents than we did against teams in our own division.
if there is an interregional that is closer than Virgina I would love to know.

Its done to try to make games competitive and for travel purposes. Would it have been more fun for you to beat up on Georgia Tech and Western Carolina. Would it have been fun for them? The truth is, Miami, ECU, Bethel should all be D1. I give FGCU a break because they were a new club, but anyone who knows anything about FGCU knows that there a lot of very good hockey players hanging out there, even if they are playing ice.

[BEEZERAL]

Its done to try to make games competitive and for travel purposes. Would it have been more fun for you to beat up on Georgia Tech and Western Carolina. Would it have been fun for them? The truth is, Miami, ECU, Bethel should all be D1. I give FGCU a break because they were a new club, but anyone who knows anything about FGCU knows that there a lot of very good hockey players hanging out there, even if they are playing ice.

competitive games make perfect sense. the problem is when it comes to selecting teams for nationals, the fact that a team played a really tough schedule and had an inferrior record is not given any consideration, compared to a team that played an easier schedule with a great record.

so while scheduling games that create competitive matchups, the SECRHL puts its upper level DII teams at a disadvantage when it comes to nationals bids.

[GoRangrHky]

I will disagree with that. I look at ECRHA teams who play a tough schedule all season getting bids over SCHL teams with better record but a much easier schedule every single yea.

[BEEZERAL]

I will disagree with that. I look at ECRHA teams who play a tough schedule all season getting bids over SCHL teams with better record but a much easier schedule every single yea.

University of New Orleans begs to differ

[NUHockey72]

I will disagree with that. I look at ECRHA teams who play a tough schedule all season getting bids over SCHL teams with better record but a much easier schedule every single yea.

Stephen F. Austin also got an alternate bid over Northeastern, Shippensburg and Drexel who i'd all say had harder schedules and better results in the ECRHA.

[GoRangrHky]

It's probably more the case in DI than DII this year. I think with the ECRHA losing their top 4 teams from DII this past year, they may not have considered it as strong a region as they had in the past.

[BEEZERAL]

It's probably more the case in DI than DII this year. I think with the ECRHA losing their top 4 teams from DII this past year, they may not have considered it as strong a region as they had in the past.

With all do respect to the SCHL, it is not hard to see that their conference does not match up with the rest of the NCRHA from top to bottom. But the league would rather play it safe and only look at records and not who teams played when determining who should get bids. In my opinion both UNO and TTU would have lost to the top 8 teams from the SECRHL DII.

We may want to believe that they use strength of schedule, but in reality they have said that they use SOS very minimally, when comparing teams from different conferences