Ice vs. Inline, part 34

[DannyG]

USA Hockey (ice) webpage is promoting this "article" on inline hockey play helping ice hockey players with their game:

http://www.coloradoavalanchecares.com/columns/parenting/inline-vs-ice-will-roller-hockey-hurt-your-game/

Am I the only one reading this that thinks it's a "damning-with-faint-praise" job???

Please allow me to note the following.

Locally, over the past ten years, we had the development of inline hockey outpace the growth of ice, largely because of programs and facilities available. We therefore had a bunch of kids that played hundreds of hours of inine before they ever stepped onto ice, as well as vice-versa.

Without exception, the "inline kids" had little trouble playing ice. The "ice kids" had some work to do, especially on their skating development, before they were to catch up to the level of their inline counterparts.

Many of the inline kids quickly became stars on ice, to the point where they were asked how they got to be such good skaters, stickhandlers, etc...

I do not think that this local situation is the norm, but we continue to see this contrast between the "first-inline" and the "first-ice" development, especially in skating skills.

This Avalanche "article" completely misses out. Nowhere is there any statement that you will become a better skater by skating inline, in fact, there are several notes in the article that you will have to take extra care to avoid "bad habits" that you might get from inline work.

I am getting very tired of this nonsense (the nice word). Please allow me to state:

It is my overwhelming experience, over the past twenty-five years of hockey play and coaching, that inline hockey play makes better skaters of it's players. An ice hockey player who was truly serious about his/her game would do well to deliberately incorporate as much inline play into their yearly developmental schedule as possible. If you do this, you will become a better player...period.

[hockeymum]

in "slight" defense of the bad habits thing, I can see where they are coming from in some regards.

Honestly though, I have seen this go both ways. I have seen kids from both inline and ice programs where they have not been taught to skate properly, have not been taught team concepts etc. I've seen this in parent run programs in particular- they like the sport, have a lot of enthusiasm and are willing to volunteer, but if the adults in charge have no/little background in hockey theres a bit of a learning curve. When kids from these kinds of programs try to transition into an organization with a strong emphasis on development(ice or inline) it can be difficult for a while.

Unfortunately, I think the reputation for bad habits is more prevalent with inline. Ice hockey has had a head start as an organized sport. but as inline continues to become more organized and the level of talent continues to rise, I think that attitude will change.

It is unfortunate that some ice hockey folks, particularly those that get such wide spread press, attribute bad habits to inline hockey rather than to poor training. In my opinion, I think that is where any potential issues lie, and poor training exists in both.

Danny G, while I do not think your situation is the norm for the area I live in, I agree 100% that the games are complimentary. I love the creativity and offensive nature of the inline game, I love the emphasis on body position and defense I see in the ice game. To play either with success at a high level, team play is essential. While at this point my kids are only playing inline, we have a deep love and appreciation for ice hockey. I too wish it went both ways.

[growl89]

Inline does help your stickhandling, hands, and vision for sure.

But as someone who played both for about 17 years now, I can tell you that roller hockey does actually hurt your skating a little bit and if you aren't careful, you WILL absolutely develop bad habits.

Roller hockey helped out a lot of parts of my own ice game, but skating is not one of them. On the contrary though, the better skater I became on the ice, helped out in the roller world.

They are two different kinds of strides and skating believe it or not. With no "edges" in roller hockey, it only makes sense that they would be different.

[Jon Mosenson]

Just a little update that Mission Posted on their facebook...."HOT OFF THE PRESS: Lee Sweatt will not play NARCh pro with Team MIssion this summer. Signs NHL contract with Vancouver Canucks." He was an inline and ice guy his whole life. Another one of our guys gets the call to the show. Good Luck Sweatt!

Hows that for developing bad habbits in roller haha

[inferno98]

I agree with Bill.

Just to add a note, a player that comes from inline to ice tends to have more patience while a player from ice to inline is usually trying to rush the play.

I personally have a much easier time transitioning from ice to inline then I do from inline to ice though. Skating wise and handling the puck.

[iwearstripes]

From the Ice Hockey perspective, players who play inline do tend to develop bad habits. From the Inline Hockey perspective, players who play ice tend to develop bad habits.

I played about 15 years if ice, switched to roller in college (we had no ice hockey), and now I play both. A few observations:

1) Despite the fact that I don't practice nearly as much as I did playing high school ice, I am a far better puck-handler for having played inline the last 8 or so years.

2) I think playing inline has made me a faster skater on the ice. I suspect this is because the wheels, bearings, and chassis on an inline skate are heavier than a blade and holder on an ice skate. This helped to develop additional strength in my stride, making me a more powerful skater on the ice, and giving me a quicker first step. I did sacrifice some of the smoothness in my skating by playing inline, though I think that issue is somewhat mitigated by playing both frequently.

3) I think inline develops better penalty killers. The controlled nature of inline hockey helps break down some of the psychological barriers that make ice hockey players bad penalty killers. I play in an ice hockey men's league with some of my inline teammates from college. We routinely skate the puck into the offensive zone when killing a penalty, then drop it back to the point men at our defensive blue line, cycle through the neutral zone, and repeat. In ice hockey, the offensive blue line is critically important, and I think penalty killers tend to work too hard to maintain the blue line, when it is of little consequence when scoring is a lower priority. In my observation, our inline players are more comfortable sacrificing the offensive blue line to maintain control of the puck in the neutral zone, where our ice hockey lifers prefer to dump the puck in the corner.

4) I also find inline players to be a bit more creative with their sticks. The small things like getting a stick on a puck just enough to change its direction, or making a poke check to separate an attacker from the puck can often be more effective than laying a bone crushing check. I find, particularly at the Pee-Wee and Bantam levels, that ice hockey players often will make a check, but it won't necessarily be a good check. They'll take the puck carrier off the puck, but in doing so leave themselves out of position to make a play for the puck.

5) About a decade ago, USA Hockey decided it needed to improve the puck handling skills of defensemen (they changed the offside rule to facilitate this). Inline hockey, by its nature, creates better puck handling defensemen. By removing legal checking, it also forces defensemen to focus more on establishing good positioning.

Can you develop bad habits by playing inline? Sure. In aggregate, I think inline has much to offer to ice hockey players who hope to improve their game. Especially given the direction ice hockey has moves as a sport (away from Scott Stevens, and towards Duncan Keith type players) I think the skill enhancement will prove even more beneficial in the future. Its also worth noting, that inline is an incredible value compared to ice hockey. It requires less equipment, and less expensive rink time. This allows people who are interested in trying hockey to do so with fewer barriers to entry, and provides a lower cost skill development option to established ice hockey players.

All in all, the two games complement each other quite nicely, and an ice hockey player who has the focus to prevent bad habits from creeping into his game can improve considerably by trying the inline game.

[I_H_P]

Inline and Ice can go together awesome if done right. You might see problems if you play ice for a year without touching inline, or vice versa, but if you can do both simultaneously you won't see any negatives. During ice season, skating inline once every week or two even for a half hour will keep you from getting too rusty and losing the creativity. Similarly, if you do inline all summer but skate hard on the ice once a week you won't notice the bad habits that everyone talks about including change in stride.

Also, for anyone watching the Penguin-Canadien playoff series.. one of Montreal's best offensive players played against us in the FIRS Mens tournament in Italy last summer.

#14 - Thomas Plekanec

Check out this video, he is seen playing against Team Canada (he is wearing #14)

Also look at # 97 - Rotislav Klesla...He plays for the Columbus Bluejackets.

In fact, if you look at every name on the Czech roster, they all play pro euro ice hockey.

[hockeymum]

awesome input from both perspectives! I agree that regular participation helps the transition. Also, I think its easier the younger you start. My husband never played inline until he was "middle aged", after many years on ice- while stopping on ice is effortless, the big galoot still cant manage it well on wheels:)

IHP, your link did not post, can you type it out?

[DannyG]

...players who play inline do tend to develop bad habits...players who play ice tend to develop bad habits.

All in all, the two games complement each other quite nicely, and an ice hockey player who has the focus to prevent bad habits from creeping into his game can improve considerably by trying the inline game.


Inline and Ice can go together awesome if done right...
In fact, if you look at every name on the Czech roster, they all play pro euro ice hockey.

Thanks for two very inciteful, thoughtful sets of information. I wish that people who write these articles would ask you guys, instead of the nincompoops that they reference. It's been a while sonce I have used the word nincompoops, I think I'll do so more often...

try this one:
http://www3.rollersports.tv/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=905&Itemid=10

[I_H_P]

Forgot to post the link.. here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyIU0exctwk

[growl89]

Just a little update that Mission Posted on their facebook...."HOT OFF THE PRESS: Lee Sweatt will not play NARCh pro with Team MIssion this summer. Signs NHL contract with Vancouver Canucks." He was an inline and ice guy his whole life. Another one of our guys gets the call to the show. Good Luck Sweatt!

Hows that for developing bad habbits in roller haha


Jon,

Can't aruge with you there. Lee is an outstanding player who has played for countless high level ice hockey teams. His training both in the weight room and on the ice are the reason why he is so good. My post was meant for the "average" player. The top skilled guys will always succeed because of the amount of ice hockey they play and off ice work they do. Guys like Lee, Bobby Ryan, Mike Van Ryn, Jimmy Slater, Brett Sterling, etc. They all started on roller blades at the same time as ice or even before. But Ice hockey is the reason they made it to the show.

[GoRangrHky]

I have found that inline makes players a little lazier than they are in ice. I see too many defensemen that hang out in their own zone and don't skate up with the play, forwards who don't backcheck just expecting the puck to come back the other way for an odd man rush, and guys that don't skate to the front of the net hard and stop there.

I don't think by any means that it is hard to stop on inline skates. But it requires a lot more effort to do so, and players don't want to put in that effort for whatever reason.

Now, this doesn't apply to high level players. I've watched plenty of Narch Pro (and platinum ones too), PIHA and AIHL, and good DI NCRHA teams who skate and skate and skate. But I've seen too many high school games where nobody's feet are moving except the player with the puck, and it upsets me. I grew up playing inline but with an ice hockey mentality. I didn't see my first 4 on 4 game until I was a senior in high school, so all I knew was the hockey I saw on TV. There was just no ice hockey in NYC for kids, so roller it was. So maybe it's just me, but I get upset when I see guys not backchecking or getting down to block shots.

Now that I've started playing it (especially in Massachusetts), I love playing ice as much as I love inline, and recognize and appreciate the differences in the game. There's also no checking in men's leagues (don't get old, kids), so a lot of the defensive skills I've learned in inline work great compared to kids that only know how to lay out a guy and not actually stop him.

[Alvare71]

I think bad habits come from your coach or the lack of coaching.


For one there is no off-sides and that can stump a roller guy coming into ice. They are used to skating non-stop......... unlike ice there is off-sides, two line pass which controls cherry pickin.

I know coaches that have no patience for players who didnt start ice right away, they feel they shouldnt be coaching the basics to a teenager. So what hurts a player in my opinion? The coach, he has full control of the players.......

Roller benefits the ability to be creative and freedom of movement....one player can change the game.

Ice benefits providing team atmosphere and quick thinking on your feet and keeping your head up, which your not taught in roller because they dont have to worry about being hit.

And when your worried about being hit, it throws your game off and then your judged to having a bad habit, when really you never worried about it in roller hockey.

I love Roller hockey and always will.

[growl89]

Roller benefits the ability to be creative and freedom of movement....one player can change the game.

Ice benefits providing team atmosphere and quick thinking on your feet and keeping your head up, which your not taught in roller because they dont have to worry about being hit.

And when your worried about being hit, it throws your game off and then your judged to having a bad habit, when really you never worried about it in roller hockey.



Ice or roller hockey, you should never skate with your head down. That is a sure fire way to lose the puck, never pass, etc.

If you are "worrying" about being hit, then you are in the wrong sport. Being conscious of being hit is actually a tool that makes you a better player. The different for a lot of guys between the AHL and NHL is the ability to perform at the top of their game while being hit, having the potential to be hit.

Also, to say that one person can not change a game in ice hockey is ridiculous. Happen to see Johan Franzen or Jonathan Toews the past two nights? Single handidly won their teams games for them. It happens all of the time.

I will agree however that coaching is the problem with roller hockey. Too many unqualified people coaching kids. A quick story, Last year a couple of us from up here went down to ECHO to play in their first Pro series championship, which was a great time by way, well anyways, hanging around the rink watching some of the youth games I have almost never heard more coaches screaming at officials, players and the other team. There was one game in a B or rec division where the coach screamed at his player to skate it up and score. When he didn't he got back to the bench and was greated with, "What the hell is wrong with you, I told you to score!"

If roller hockey could develop a system for coaches to be certified, clinics held, etc it would really go a long way. There is A LOT being done in roller hockey, and to see IHP come out is a big step, hopefully that takes off. Hopefully marketting people step up and start adervtising the elite level of our game while it's still this huge.

[zipyaj]

I will agree however that coaching is the problem with roller hockey. Too many unqualified people coaching kids. A quick story, Last year a couple of us from up here went down to ECHO to play in their first Pro series championship, which was a great time by way, well anyways, hanging around the rink watching some of the youth games I have almost never heard more coaches screaming at officials, players and the other team. There was one game in a B or rec division where the coach screamed at his player to skate it up and score. When he didn't he got back to the bench and was greated with, "What the hell is wrong with you, I told you to score!"

If roller hockey could develop a system for coaches to be certified, clinics held, etc it would really go a long way. There is A LOT being done in roller hockey, and to see IHP come out is a big step, hopefully that takes off. Hopefully marketting people step up and start adervtising the elite level of our game while it's still this huge.

GENTLEMEN;
Commendable notes on a worthy topic within a topic. In this observer's opinion, it's time to Walk The Walk and not just Talk The Talk.

Mr. Katinsky, On Feb. 21, 2009, you also wrote: "I think it's a great idea that coaches need to be certified. I just got my level 4 for ice hockey last september and I can tell you that it was one of the most interesting things that I have done in a while. They also just created a level 5 certification that I will be attending in MI in the fall. I have learned so many things about coaching from these seminars it's amazing. The first one or two are ok, once you get to the higher levels, they really start breaking the game down. Alot of it can be used for roller hockey as well, you just need to be creative.

But i think we (the inline community) should have a levels system like ice hockey does. And as the levels get older, the more certification is required. Lets actually teach these kids something... "

While this thread was seemingly intended more for comparing Ice with Roller from a Player / Coach perspective, the introduction of Coaches Training (certification) goes a long way in terms of both respect and longevity for the game of Roller.

As being an on-the-record proponent of Coach Certification, I am proud to say that our HS program is entering into its 3rd season of Mandatory Certification. We still have along way to go to mature the system, but can count successes also in terms of influences to other programs in our area including Official's Training (on-rink and scorekeeepers), Coaches Committee now interacts with Discipline and Rules for the League, and a Coach Orientation program being developed for those new Hockey Dads volunteering for first time Rec. Level teams.

What Constitutes A Certified Coach?
This is arguably a big issue. But would you (the sport) delay in coming to terms with a program or continue to allow the Certifiable-type Coaches to persist as in the case of Coach Winnfield ( http://inlinehockeycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33285 )

Mandatory Certified Coaching?
More on this topic begun Jan 3, 2009 ( http://inlinehockeycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33285 )

Maybe a new thread for this: Ice vs. Inline, part 35 ?

Thanks for all you do!

[growl89]

GENTLEMEN;
Commendable notes on a worthy topic within a topic. In this observer's opinion, it's time to Walk The Walk and not just Talk The Talk.

Mr. Katinsky, On Feb. 21, 2009, you also wrote: "I think it's a great idea that coaches need to be certified. I just got my level 4 for ice hockey last september and I can tell you that it was one of the most interesting things that I have done in a while. They also just created a level 5 certification that I will be attending in MI in the fall. I have learned so many things about coaching from these seminars it's amazing. The first one or two are ok, once you get to the higher levels, they really start breaking the game down. Alot of it can be used for roller hockey as well, you just need to be creative.

But i think we (the inline community) should have a levels system like ice hockey does. And as the levels get older, the more certification is required. Lets actually teach these kids something... "

While this thread was seemingly intended more for comparing Ice with Roller from a Player / Coach perspective, the introduction of Coaches Training (certification) goes a long way in terms of both respect and longevity for the game of Roller.

As being an on-the-record proponent of Coach Certification, I am proud to say that our HS program is entering into its 3rd season of Mandatory Certification. We still have along way to go to mature the system, but can count successes also in terms of influences to other programs in our area including Official's Training (on-rink and scorekeeepers), Coaches Committee now interacts with Discipline and Rules for the League, and a Coach Orientation program being developed for those new Hockey Dads volunteering for first time Rec. Level teams.

What Constitutes A Certified Coach?
This is arguably a big issue. But would you (the sport) delay in coming to terms with a program or continue to allow the Certifiable-type Coaches to persist as in the case of Coach Winnfield ( http://inlinehockeycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33285 )

Mandatory Certified Coaching?
More on this topic begun Jan 3, 2009 ( http://inlinehockeycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33285 )

Maybe a new thread for this: Ice vs. Inline, part 35 ?

Thanks for all you do!

That's great that your league has mandatory certification. That is a big step for the players to recieve a better hockey education. I would think that goal would be for all of the leagues, rec, high school, travel, etc. It's reachable, it just needs people to do it. I wish I had the money and time to do such a thing. And I understand that is probably the number one reason why it isn't done...

[Alvare71]

Ice or roller hockey, you should never skate with your head down. That is a sure fire way to lose the puck, never pass, etc.

If you are "worrying" about being hit, then you are in the wrong sport. Being conscious of being hit is actually a tool that makes you a better player. The different for a lot of guys between the AHL and NHL is the ability to perform at the top of their game while being hit, having the potential to be hit.

Also, to say that one person can not change a game in ice hockey is ridiculous. Happen to see Johan Franzen or Jonathan Toews the past two nights? Single handidly won their teams games for them. It happens all of the time.

I will agree however that coaching is the problem with roller hockey. Too many unqualified people coaching kids. A quick story, Last year a couple of us from up here went down to ECHO to play in their first Pro series championship, which was a great time by way, well anyways, hanging around the rink watching some of the youth games I have almost never heard more coaches screaming at officials, players and the other team. There was one game in a B or rec division where the coach screamed at his player to skate it up and score. When he didn't he got back to the bench and was greated with, "What the hell is wrong with you, I told you to score!"

If roller hockey could develop a system for coaches to be certified, clinics held, etc it would really go a long way. There is A LOT being done in roller hockey, and to see IHP come out is a big step, hopefully that takes off. Hopefully marketting people step up and start adervtising the elite level of our game while it's still this huge.

I was telling people why they have problems, I know they should skate with their head up. But in roller hockey they don't have too because there is no checking....I agree with what you say

[Alvare71]

That's great that your league has mandatory certification. That is a big step for the players to recieve a better hockey education. I would think that goal would be for all of the leagues, rec, high school, travel, etc. It's reachable, it just needs people to do it. I wish I had the money and time to do such a thing. And I understand that is probably the number one reason why it isn't done...

I think all the guys making money off roller hockey and provide no future of these young players should step up and put together a sure fire program to move forward. I know roller offers a lot to kids and can make it pro at ice.

I dont know how many times we have to be told roller hockey is a second rate sport next to ice....does anybody with control & money really care or do they just count the cash as we end up being a weekend tournament sport.

[hockeymum]

in all fairness, I think there are some guys stepping up. One mentioned his efforts above. Peter Dale offers coaching clinics. I believe he and CJ Yoder may also run clinics for the RHA(someone else may be able to confirm this). These are knowledgable guys entrenched in the sport, enthusiastic about passing it on.

again, we tend to forget the age of organized ice hockey as compared to organized roller hockey. ice hockey was considered a second rate sport for a number of years. all that stuff takes dedication, vision, money and most of all time. we can look forward to looking back in say 20-30 years-and hopefully we will see a NGB, a true professional league, and lively developmental programs. if we're all still alive to see it:)

[DannyG]

in all fairness, I think there are some guys stepping up... hopefully we will see ... a true professional league...

...and I think that's the key. I was in the room in 1982 when a reporter asked Dave Clement what it would take to make pro soccer go in this country. "Do you think it will happen when all these little kids have 'grown up with it?"

Dave replied, "No, when all the reporters have grown up with it." Indeed, the media makes the sport. But you need a national-level full-pro league to get the television contract.

MISL had a contract with the USA network for two years, but then the network, and indeed cable tv wasn't fully realized. Look at what Mark Cuban and Bruce McNall have done for NBA and NHL, as two examples. Whether you like them personally or not, here were two guys who were incredibly rich, who had enough money to throw away on buying a major league pro sports franchise. It's going to take a dozen such people to form any kind of a new, adiditonal pro league in inline hockey or any other sport.

I hope it happens sometime sooner than later.

So now I've hijacked my own thread, and now we can debate what it will take for pro inline hockey to originate and develop.

[Alvare71]

in all fairness, I think there are some guys stepping up. One mentioned his efforts above. Peter Dale offers coaching clinics. I believe he and CJ Yoder may also run clinics for the RHA(someone else may be able to confirm this). These are knowledgable guys entrenched in the sport, enthusiastic about passing it on.

again, we tend to forget the age of organized ice hockey as compared to organized roller hockey. ice hockey was considered a second rate sport for a number of years. all that stuff takes dedication, vision, money and most of all time. we can look forward to looking back in say 20-30 years-and hopefully we will see a NGB, a true professional league, and lively developmental programs. if we're all still alive to see it:)

I agree with you, but in fairness I think we need to give more than just a tournament or a clinic....

I know in our sport everyone just wants a piece of the pie....with 465,975 registered in ice thats only .015% of the American population.

Where does roller stand, you dont see to many ice rinks getting shut down.


Ice was reorganized very well,and their leaders were headed in the same direction.

How many tournaments are out there with two different insurances.........We need a big time business plan.

[growl89]

I agree with you, but in fairness I think we need to give more than just a tournament or a clinic....

I know in our sport everyone just wants a piece of the pie....with 465,975 registered in ice thats only .015% of the American population.

Where does roller stand, you dont see to many ice rinks getting shut down.


Ice was reorganized very well,and their leaders were headed in the same direction.

How many tournaments are out there with two different insurances.........We need a big time business plan.

Best post to date on this topic so far. I think that one of the problems with roller hockey are tournaments themselves. Growing up in the mid-90's playing for ISCA, we had a NJ, PA, NY, travel league, for all age groups. With a championship playoffs and finals at the end of the season. It was something to play for over the course of a season, we built relationships as a team, had ups and down, etc. It was kind of like an ice hockey travel league. It worked out pretty well, until AIRHS and USARS, not so much Narch, started flooding the area with tournaments all year long. This led to the demise of the league and I'm sure other leagues around the country.

Roller hockey should be HUGE now. With the economy being horrible and ice hockey prices going through the roof, how is roller hockey still LOSING players? This is something the "big wigs" should be discussing.

Again, I wish I had the time, money, or marketting experience to help out ths sport. There has to be someone out there....

[kevinsmithAZ]

Best post to date on this topic so far. I think that one of the problems with roller hockey are tournaments themselves. Growing up in the mid-90's playing for ISCA, we had a NJ, PA, NY, travel league, for all age groups. With a championship playoffs and finals at the end of the season. It was something to play for over the course of a season, we built relationships as a team, had ups and down, etc. It was kind of like an ice hockey travel league. It worked out pretty well, until AIRHS and USARS, not so much Narch, started flooding the area with tournaments all year long. This led to the demise of the league and I'm sure other leagues around the country.

Roller hockey should be HUGE now. With the economy being horrible and ice hockey prices going through the roof, how is roller hockey still LOSING players? This is something the "big wigs" should be discussing.

Again, I wish I had the time, money, or marketting experience to help out ths sport. There has to be someone out there....

For roller to grow, there would need to be--

a) ONE NGB
b) A certification program for coaches and officials
c) Regional leagues/districts set up (like NAYRHL and WIHA), with winners or top teams going to..
d) A true national championship, set up by the NGB. This could include the NGB using, say, NARCh or TORHS (for example) as the peak, or national championship to reach. These tournament series' would have to be okay with knowing they wouldn't make as much money but would be doing it for the better of the sport.

They could still run tournaments, but the number of tournaments and tournament COMPANIES would need to shrink significantly. In ice, most tournaments are put on my host teams/facilities, aside from Silver Sticks, (which is throughout both the US and Canada) In roller, most tournaments are put on by companies; this is okay until they all have a "national championship," watering down the true effect of having a National Championship.

I will say, I love NARCh and will continue to play it and support it as long as it's around.

But as a closing point, hands down, the NCRHA is a model for the future of roller hockey and how it can become a more organized sport. Regions/Districts set up, winners of these regions and other select teams go to nationals.