DI - in Phil Borque's words "The Cream Will Rise" Has it?

[oldschool22]

I think 2 years ago Phil said that the best teams would shift to DI and that the true DI teams would all move over into the premier level of play.
I disagreed then and disagree now.

DII, just like last year, will get screwed out of national tournament births once again. Instead, some poor teams from DI will get to go as part of the leagues wonderful plan to promote DI (unless changes are in the works - but it's the ncrha, so changes are unlikely).

Teams that can avoid playing in DI will almost always do so. Lindenwood, in my opinion, clearly has an unfair advantage, in that they can offer scholarships to their players, where no other school can. They'd still be great without them. That being said, having played DI and DII, teams at the tourney in the elimination round look to see when they will play LU on the brackets and pretty much know they can relax after that point.

Most DI teams can't play LU to a 5 or 8 goal game.

Am I alone on this, or do the DII teams feel like they're getting screwed year after year?

[cdolan]

About Lindenwood. They are a great team, and have been a great team for long time. They prolly will be a great team for a long time to come. But a lot of teams give up before they even play them. And it's an easy thing to do. Look at their track record. A lot of teams with a lot of talent have just given up before they even played them.

[Patn Lawton]

I think 2 years ago Phil said that the best teams would shift to DI and that the true DI teams would all move over into the premier level of play.
I disagreed then and disagree now.

DII, just like last year, will get screwed out of national tournament births once again. Instead, some poor teams from DI will get to go as part of the leagues wonderful plan to promote DI (unless changes are in the works - but it's the ncrha, so changes are unlikely).

Teams that can avoid playing in DI will almost always do so. Lindenwood, in my opinion, clearly has an unfair advantage, in that they can offer scholarships to their players, where no other school can. They'd still be great without them. That being said, having played DI and DII, teams at the tourney in the elimination round look to see when they will play LU on the brackets and pretty much know they can relax after that point.

Most DI teams can't play LU to a 5 or 8 goal game.

Am I alone on this, or do the DII teams feel like they're getting screwed year after year?



I think it is great that the NCRHA is strongly promoting D1. From what I understand their ultimate goal is to be a NCAA sport and having perks such as more teams going to nationals will help get the talented DII teams to move up.

As far as Lindenwood goes, a lot of people have sat around for years saying its not fair because of this or that, they will always win, etc. Of course that excludes UMSL who decided to move to DI, work their asses off, and win a national championship.

[Mr Hockey]

1: so basically you're saying that Lindenwood shouldn't be allowed to give out scholarships. Well, that's obvious. But that is still no reason to sandbag into D2 like A LOT of D2 teams do. Would you rather play better competition and face lindenwood once a year max? (Unless your are UMSL or Mizzou.) Or would you rather stomp teams in D2 all day long?

[Ben Lambert]

The only thing that pisses me off is the fact that a certain few teams are in D2 year after year even though they have won nationals and been good for 3 years or so in a row (sometimes more).

I've got news for you: Every team can't be awesome and make nationals forever. Every team has its ups and downs. Are people to big of p-words to suffer for a year or two building a program that can make nationals a few years in a row?

I've got an idea!! Let's do a re-distribution of talent! Lets make teams who have strong rosters donate a player or two of theirs to a squad full of benders to make it fair. Their widdle feewings get hurt when they don't get to play at nationals!!

"We don't know who we would have year after year so we play it safe in d2" is a terrible excuse. That's what a B team is for. If a team has a strong b team to develop guys, they will automatically be able to reload or at least compete if they lose a key guy or two--even at the D1 level. I can tell you one thing for sure: I wish my team had a choice of playing either D1 or JC, I'd pick D1 in a heartbeat. Teams that finish over .500 every year in D2 should be in D1. Period. End of story.

Players are more likely to chose a D1 school over a D2 school. When I was with UMSL, no way would a couple of guys (ahem, Tallo, Meade, the list goes on...) have played for us if we would've played D2. Being in D1 itself is a draw. "But people don't pick a school based on roller hockey, come on!!" Uuuh the type of players YOU want do!! If a kid who is sick at derby decides that they want to play in (my opinion) the best roller hockey LEAGUE in the country, they will definitely take a look at which teams are good, bad, and which league they play in. Yeah, we're all going for an education and blah blah blah, but if you grew up playing roller hockey (or even ice hockey) and you are narrowing it down to a few schools, yeah I think a strong roller hockey club may jut be the factor that puts your school over the top.

Teams who say "we have no shot at winning" or people who say "D2 teams are getting screwed out of spots because of d1" are really funny to me. If D2 teams who AREN'T being taken for nationals are better than the teams who ARE being picked for d1, it's a really sad thing that you chose to slum it up in D2 when you could be getting to the final 4 in D1 (even though you can't even make the cut in D2)

The premise that somehow D2 is better than D1 is a JOKE. It is NOT. I have played in both leagues, played the best JC schools, D1 schools, you name it. (I played CRH for a lot longer than I care to admit) and I assure you, D1 is BETTER.

Teams who should move up:

Neumann (LOL you guys are still in D2!)
Brockport
Missouri State
SIUE
UCSD
West Chester
Truman State
Grand Valley St. U
Cincinatti
M S Denver

You guys have all been successful for at least 2 years, most 3. Seriously. (Neumann has since at least 2004. How many undefeated seasons and National Championship appearances does one need to know it's time?)


Grrr.


Anyway, I'll quit. But please. Move to D1.

[Meade]

The disparity in D1 is closing which is a huge bonus for Division 1 as well as the NCRHA, Dolan was right almost every team who plays LU just looks at LU's roster or even here the name Lindenwood and get scared and lose way before the game even starts, look at UMSL we don't have any "big" name players yet every game we try hard and in the end when it matters I'm hoping it all pays off but teams like Michigan State and Buffalo played right with Lindenwood as well as us so saying LU is off on a tier by them selves is absurd, They've done something we all should strive for, found a way to get recognized by the school and recruit top level hockey players, Hats off to Lindenwood, and Ben's correct if UMSL wouldn't have made the jump to D1 I'd most likely would have enrolled at LU myself.

[hockeykid12]

Pretty sure Neumann has been in atleast the final four at nationals since like 04, that being said technically they are a d3 school. So they are actually playing up lol

[BEEZERAL]

Pretty sure Neumann has been in atleast the final four at nationals since like 04, that being said technically they are a d3 school. So they are actually playing up lol

You mean WE are a D3 school

[hockeykid12]

Good guess but wrong

[Chapwi]

The only thing that pisses me off is the fact that a certain few teams are in D2 year after year even though they have won nationals and been good for 3 years or so in a row (sometimes more).

I've got news for you: Every team can't be awesome and make nationals forever. Every team has its ups and downs. Are people to big of p-words to suffer for a year or two building a program that can make nationals a few years in a row?

I've got an idea!! Let's do a re-distribution of talent! Lets make teams who have strong rosters donate a player or two of theirs to a squad full of benders to make it fair. Their widdle feewings get hurt when they don't get to play at nationals!!

"We don't know who we would have year after year so we play it safe in d2" is a terrible excuse. That's what a B team is for. If a team has a strong b team to develop guys, they will automatically be able to reload or at least compete if they lose a key guy or two--even at the D1 level. I can tell you one thing for sure: I wish my team had a choice of playing either D1 or JC, I'd pick D1 in a heartbeat. Teams that finish over .500 every year in D2 should be in D1. Period. End of story.

Players are more likely to chose a D1 school over a D2 school. When I was with UMSL, no way would a couple of guys (ahem, Tallo, Meade, the list goes on...) have played for us if we would've played D2. Being in D1 itself is a draw. "But people don't pick a school based on roller hockey, come on!!" Uuuh the type of players YOU want do!! If a kid who is sick at derby decides that they want to play in (my opinion) the best roller hockey LEAGUE in the country, they will definitely take a look at which teams are good, bad, and which league they play in. Yeah, we're all going for an education and blah blah blah, but if you grew up playing roller hockey (or even ice hockey) and you are narrowing it down to a few schools, yeah I think a strong roller hockey club may jut be the factor that puts your school over the top.

Teams who say "we have no shot at winning" or people who say "D2 teams are getting screwed out of spots because of d1" are really funny to me. If D2 teams who AREN'T being taken for nationals are better than the teams who ARE being picked for d1, it's a really sad thing that you chose to slum it up in D2 when you could be getting to the final 4 in D1 (even though you can't even make the cut in D2)

The premise that somehow D2 is better than D1 is a JOKE. It is NOT. I have played in both leagues, played the best JC schools, D1 schools, you name it. (I played CRH for a lot longer than I care to admit) and I assure you, D1 is BETTER.

Teams who should move up:

Neumann (LOL you guys are still in D2!)
Brockport
Missouri State
SIUE
UCSD
West Chester
Truman State
Grand Valley St. U
Cincinatti
M S Denver

You guys have all been successful for at least 2 years, most 3. Seriously. (Neumann has since at least 2004. How many undefeated seasons and National Championship appearances does one need to know it's time?)


Grrr.


Anyway, I'll quit. But please. Move to D1.

I dont think its a question about Neumann going D1, look at their funding they all have the nicest jerseys pants...even matching gloves now.

But i think Funding is another huge part of not going D1.

And you wouldnt include Rowan in that list?

[Jkahn09]

I don't think it is necessarily skill in each case, because in a lot of the cases funding and not having a coach behind the bench probably keeps some teams from not making the move up. It is hard to pay for matching gloves and helmets when the rest of the season is already coming out of your pocket. Hockeykid plays for Temple.

[hockeykid12]

There will always be a dominate team, every division needs a class standard lindenwood is d1 Neumann is d2, maybe in a few years Neumann will falter, they benefit from easy academic standards, and get good players who can't get into a d1 school for grades.If you want a team to move up because they run a good program with talent then have lindenwood go play narch only and Neumann play d1, instead of complain go beat them like umsl did last year and teams have done to Neumann, sure Neumann has many national appearances and runs but only two titles, so obviously they have something to kepp working at, even if they have nice jerseys, that doesn't mean they have to be talented, they get lucky and know how to run their program, west Chester is good because of talent but also excellent coaching which made that program great. Just make your own programs better, and stop complaining about classy programs.

[show2606]

It's tough to pick which teams should move up and which shouldn't. I know going to Brockport, most of the kids on our team grew up playing ice hockey in Buffalo, myself included, and never took a step on a roller rink before the past couple years. With that being said, I would be very surprised if any kids that come here are coming for the sole purpose of roller hockey. We had like 20 kids try out this year and it was lucky we were able to get 12-14 talented players out of that small of a group. For the schools with more interest and B teams and such, the move might make more sense. Another thing is funding. We have been strapped for cash since day 1(school didnt even give us enough for league dues) so matching everything would be hard to do. I know Rowan is in a tough financial position as well, so I think a move would be out of the question for them too. The Neumann's and West Chesters that get lots of interest and have good funding would be the teams to consider it.

[Ben Lambert]

D1 requirements:

Predominantly matching color gloves: $50
Pans (Cheapies): $30
Jerseys (Cheapies, Silk Screened): $60 (home and away)
Helmet (Cheapie): $45

$185 ONE TIME for 5 Years per player. If you can't cough up $185 once in your CRH career, what are you even doing playing hockey?

Practice costs more per player per year.

Jerseys pants glove helmets are the least of your concern! Not only that, but you have to have matching jesreys in D2 ANYWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

No coach? Nobody who works at the rink or who is a friend of the team will stand in and pay their $30 to USA hockey to register? Puh-lease!

There really is no excuse not to play D1 other than the fact that there may be some sand in your vag.

[Drexel63]

Two small points I'll make here... and only because this conversation is tired, old, and repetitive...

(1) I've been on these boards a long time... Before some of you were even in high school... I can't remember ever hearing a D2 team say they wouldn't move up because Lindenwood is so good. If I'm wrong here, please reference me to the post/thread... Those that have been around long enough to know for fact, please prove me wrong... The reasons have always been, and I expect will always be, that they dont have the funding, or for others, consistent support from the school or within the club from year to year to warrant such a move. When your team is funded out of pocket, it may make sense to move back and forth based on talent, but when you are funded by your school, you have to justify paying more to play up, even though you are in a re-building year...

(2) Say everyone moves up and down based on talent from year to year... Is that really good to have that kind of flux in your divisions? From a marketing standpoint towards the NCRHA's goal of NCAA status (or an equivalent, because that goal is just unrealistic, as has been debated before), I submit that it is not...

Final point for now... The restructuring of divisions in the NCRHA was designed to (a) eliminate school size form the equation. That system was adopted from circa 2001, when D2 was first created... ECRHA split an 18 team division in half for the sake of creating a realistic season, maximizing the return on investment for more teams... That system is 100% admittedly outdated, and the restructure was necessary... (therefore, saying Neumann is a D3 school really doesn't apply... they are D3 for NCAA athletics, not NCRHA roller hockey, which is a club... (b) The restructuring was designed as well to push the well organized clubs to the top... It takes a certain level of sustainable organization (which is very hard to quantify) to acheive the goals of a D1 program. Do you know the budget for every team on your list? Do you know how much extra they would have had to pay out of pocket to move up this year, or last year, or next year? Do you know the expectations put on them by their school administration to keep/gain funding? Do you have any working knowledge whatsoever of any team on that list? I submit, again, that you do not... Prove me wrong, but until you do have that working knowledge, focus on your own play, your own team, and stop debating a topic which has no satisfactory solution publicly... If you do have that working knowledge, you either already have an NCRHA position, or should step up and fill one... And in either situation, you wouldn't be posting this discussion on a public forum in the first place, so everyone else still wins...

Also, who is Phil Borque? ;)

[BEEZERAL]

D1 requirements:

Predominantly matching color gloves: $50
Pans (Cheapies): $30
Jerseys (Cheapies, Silk Screened): $60 (home and away)
Helmet (Cheapie): $45

$185 ONE TIME for 5 Years per player. If you can't cough up $185 once in your CRH career, what are you even doing playing hockey?

Practice costs more per player per year.

Jerseys pants glove helmets are the least of your concern! Not only that, but you have to have matching jesreys in D2 ANYWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

No coach? Nobody who works at the rink or who is a friend of the team will stand in and pay their $30 to USA hockey to register? Puh-lease!

There really is no excuse not to play D1 other than the fact that there may be some sand in your vag.

While I agree with you, nobody likes having cheap gear. money is not the issue for 90% of the teams that don't play D1 that should be.

and to whoever said that roller hockey plays a roll in deciding where somebody goes to college is wrong on the most part. I know when I chose to go to UM I picked it because of academics and hoped there was a hockey team of any kind. While some people may feel that hockey is more important than education, thats there decision, but I think 90% of the players in the NCRHA are at the school they are at for academic reasons and are playing hockey because its the sport they love playing, not going to school so they can play hockey

[GSJaguars11]

D1 requirements:

Predominantly matching color gloves: $50
Pans (Cheapies): $30
Jerseys (Cheapies, Silk Screened): $60 (home and away)
Helmet (Cheapie): $45

$185 ONE TIME for 5 Years per player. If you can't cough up $185 once in your CRH career, what are you even doing playing hockey?

Practice costs more per player per year.

Jerseys pants glove helmets are the least of your concern! Not only that, but you have to have matching jesreys in D2 ANYWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

No coach? Nobody who works at the rink or who is a friend of the team will stand in and pay their $30 to USA hockey to register? Puh-lease!

There really is no excuse not to play D1 other than the fact that there may be some sand in your vag.

d2 ecrha teams already have to have matching pants and jerseys- most have the matching color gloves covered too

[socalhockey]

There is not a D2 team out there that won't move up to D1 because of the requirements. The only reason that D2 teams that absolutely should move up and play D1 but won't, is because they don't want to lose. PERIOD!
There is no other reason!

I applaud teams like UMSL, West Point, Stonybrook and Long Beach, that moved up to D1 when their programs got strong and when they were beating up on weak D2 teams . As for teams like Neumann, Brockport and Grand Valley State it's time for you to move up and play with the best and to quit sandbagging, especially Neumann! No excuses, just move up to D1 where you belong. There are great players in every state that are looking to play in the NCRHA and will do so only at schools that offer a D1 program. Top players want to play at the highest level.

One final note, I believe the league should just combine the two divisions and increase the total of National Bids to about 36 teams. This will force all teams to compete at their best and at the highest level and will only make the league stronger. The "Cream will definitely rise to the Top" if that would happen!

Lindenwood is a great program, but they are not unbeatable, just ask UMSL who won it all last year.

[hockeykid12]

Neumann got a phenomanal class five years ago with giersbach,mariottu,donohue,klenk with players alrdy there like scotto and Brooks, but from that time till just this year there talent pool lacked freshman, they were lucky this year it seems with mariottu n klenk staying another fifth year, but who knows where they would been if the class this year was not strong, definitly not top our in ecrha. Everyone needs to let go of the Neumann d1 chant and worry about getting up to playing consistantly and worry about there own team

[show2606]

You guys are right. with my team returning 3 defenseman two goalies and myself as the only forward I should have known we were going to be a powerhouse and moved us up. With my whole one year of roller hockey experience I should have known better. Plus brockport has so many regional and national championships I had to know kids were dying to play here. I think what held me back was hockeykid12 telling us we were frauds any chance he got. Now he can suck on our 22-0-0 record. If you want brockport to be in this conversation bring it up after a few more years of success and I will agree. I HATE playing poor competition but its unfair to say we need to make the jump after one good year. Good day all.

[hockeykid12]

22-0 is nice, means nothing if you don't win regionals or nationals

[BEEZERAL]

22-0 is nice, means nothing if you don't win regionals or nationals

you still talk a lot of **** for someone who wont say what team he plays for

[show2606]

22-0 is nice, means nothing if you don't win regionals or nationals

Thats an easy thing for a spectator to say. You're welcome to come play against me and show me how your expertise and skill are applied in a game situation anytime. I love learning.

[Army Defense]

There is not a D2 team out there that won't move up to D1 because of the requirements. The only reason that D2 teams that absolutely should move up and play D1 but won't, is because they don't want to lose. PERIOD!
There is no other reason!

I applaud teams like UMSL, West Point, Stonybrook and Long Beach, that moved up to D1 when their programs got strong and when they were beating up on weak D2 teams . As for teams like Neumann, Brockport and Grand Valley State it's time for you to move up and play with the best and to quit sandbagging, especially Neumann! No excuses, just move up to D1 where you belong. There are great players in every state that are looking to play in the NCRHA and will do so only at schools that offer a D1 program. Top players want to play at the highest level.

One final note, I believe the league should just combine the two divisions and increase the total of National Bids to about 36 teams. This will force all teams to compete at their best and at the highest level and will only make the league stronger. The "Cream will definitely rise to the Top" if that would happen!

Lindenwood is a great program, but they are not unbeatable, just ask UMSL who won it all last year.


West Point had overall records of 0-6 in DIII 2002-03, 3-18 DII 2003-04, 0-18 DII 04-05, and 3-7 Affiliate in 05-06 before making the jump to DI, clearly not a strong program beating up on D2 teams. Actually, it was the exact opposite. I took over the team in 05-06 and we came back as affiliates because the school put the team on probation for reasons outside of the league. After proving to the school that we were committed in 05-06, I talked it over with the team and the academy leadership and we decided to make the transition to DI for the competitiveness and challenge of competing against the percieved best teams in the league. That next year we went 7-15-1 overall in DI and it wasn't until 07-08 that West Point had it's first winning season at 16-15-2, including the WinterFest championship.

The point is that it shouldn't matter about the small difference in money or the next season's prospected talent level. Teams should have fun representing their school and strive towards excellence and claiming the national title.

[letsgoisles89]

I HATE playing poor competition but its unfair to say we need to make the jump after one good year. Good day all.

here are some of Brockport's cumulative regular season totals:

33-3-4 since '08-'09 season
87-32-8 since '03-'04 season
100-49-11 since '01-'02 season

do you need to run the table twice before your team considers making the jump? if school funding has to do with it that's a different story. However, strictly based on win-loss record year to year, i think those numbers speak for themselves in that Brockport has put together a "competitive team" at the worst for almost a decade now - which goes along with a bunch of very good seasons, not just one.

[Ben Lambert]

Guys who don't know the difference between there, their, and they're don't fool me when they try to tell me they chose their college based on academics.:p

I've been listening to that same old song and dance out of Neumann for about 5 years. Give me a break.

[hockeykid12]

exactly so obviously it wont change people should quit whinning

[Ben Lambert]

I don't hear any "whinning" or even any whining. Just a bunch of people debating a lot of valid and some not so valid points.

[BEEZERAL]

Guys who don't know the difference between there, their, and they're don't fool me when they try to tell me they chose their college based on academics.:p

I've been listening to that same old song and dance out of Neumann for about 5 years. Give me a break.


Excuse me grammar police. Sorry I did not check my spelling on a hockey message board

[Ben Lambert]

I'm just funnin ya. Notice the little smiley face...

[show2606]

If you have every team with a decent record move up to d1, you're going to end up with nobody left in d2. The fact is that we have only had two dominant teams in our history. This year and 05-06. I think there are bigger fish to fry than brockport. I hope I did my part improving our program and they do move to d1 in years to come.

[betteronice]

Well, how do you guys think the top D2 teams would rank amongst the top D1?

[CSteamer]

While I agree with you, nobody likes having cheap gear. money is not the issue for 90% of the teams that don't play D1 that should be.

and to whoever said that roller hockey plays a roll in deciding where somebody goes to college is wrong on the most part. I know when I chose to go to UM I picked it because of academics and hoped there was a hockey team of any kind. While some people may feel that hockey is more important than education, thats there decision, but I think 90% of the players in the NCRHA are at the school they are at for academic reasons and are playing hockey because its the sport they love playing, not going to school so they can play hockey

I think you are wrong on this one. Money is a major issue for many schools when it comes to club sports, especially public schools. I went to a large state university for my undergrad and we received a huge $1,500 total for the year from the school for our club. When league dues are $4,000, then you throw it travel, hotel, practice, etc...getting matching jerseys, gloves, and helmets are not something that poor college kids are going to pay for. At Miami, a private school, this is usually not a problem.

The programs who play D1 are usually better funded and/or better organized. By organization I also mean fund raise a lot better. And also to the guy who said getting a coach shouldn't be an excuse, for many teams, finding a coach is a lot more difficult then getting one of your friends to pay for the USA hockey membership. You have to get someone who is willing to travel sometimes 10+ hours and waste a lot of time and money.

As someone who was the president of my club for two years it is hard enough to get the retards on the team to fill out paperwork and show up to practice, all this other stuff comes with programs who have a lot of organization and a lot of people involved, which for a lot of teams, is not the case.

[Ben Lambert]

Chad--

I'm not necessarily suggesting that everyone who has a decent record move up. I am suggesting that some teams have a better than decent record year after year, barring maybe a weak year here or there, but stay in D2.

My point is not that I want things to be fair and equal and I think it's stupid people sandbag in D2 (even though I do) , my main concern is the health of the league overall. I want to see the NCRHA become the league it can be. It gets better every year, the league is trying to do their part, the teams need to do theirs.

[show2606]

I agree with you totally, I just want to make sure my team isn't associated with the teams that are sandbagging. I'm a very competitive person and would have loved to move to d1 if I knew the team I was going to have. The sandbagging teams know who they are and are only kidding themselves if they think they shouldn't move up.

[GoRangrHky]

I did not hesitate- for a SECOND- once they changed what DI/DII was all about to put Hofstra in as a DI program. And we/ they have gotten smoked every year since. And I had a lot of kids telling me to put it back in to DII, but I never would. This is the first year since 06-07 they are even making regionals, much less nationals, and the kids wouldn't have it any other way. And in all honesty, as bad as the records have been, the scores have not been that lopsided. Every DI game is competitive. Not every DII game is.

I don't think you realize the impact that conforming to the DI requirements does to your appearance to your school, which leads to more funding and the like. What school looks at a team that's all mismatched, doesn't have a coach, shows up to the rink looking like a men's league team and thinks that is something they want to invest in?

Look- the glove requirements are simple. Don't have a color that's not a school color. Otherwise, go pick up a pair of black gloves, or ones that match. I get 5 emails a day from Hockey Giant, Hockey Overstock, RollerHockey.com, and a bunch of other places, and at least one is for gloves from the year before that are like 70% off. I'll forward you the links if you want. And helmets, I bet that 75% of guys have a black helmet already. That's how we picked. Made it easy for us to get the cash together to only have to get 4-5 more helmets for the guys that needed them.

Somehow this year Hofstra managed to find five (yes, five) coaches, an equipment manager, people to film every single game, and at the grand total cost of paying for the hotel room for the coaches when they go away. They did it, you can too. I know it's more of a hockey market or whatever, but it's not THAT hard. And these DII schools that are being mentioned, most of you already have coaches anyway.

So what it comes down to is just being willing to suck it up and be willing to not go 22-0 against inferior competition. Let DII be for the teams that are DII. I'm surprised that more of those schools don't want to go play DIII since they know that plenty of teams are sandbagging and they don't have a chance either. It'd be more fun for everyone if teams classified themselves the right way.

[MBurke]

I won't weigh in much here, but I am following with interest. A few questions to pose to those participating in this thread:


Is 3 semesters a long enough period of time to condemn the new divisional system as a failure? My personal feeling is that it'll need at least another year or two to start fully shaking out, as club leadership turns over and people who aren't indoctrinated into the old divisional system start coming on board. I know in the ECRHA we've seen extremely competitive games across both DI and DII this season.
It seems the common vein in this thread is that the most competitive teams (who can also meet DI requirements) should be playing Division I. If that is the case, what do you feel are things that can be done to induce those teams who you don't feel belong in DII to make the jump?
What issues other than a few teams "sandbagging" do people have with the current divisional system?

[Meade]

Get rid of the D2 National tournament, then see how many teams jump up once they realize they have no true national championship to play for. Let the individual regions crown a D2 Champion and end it with that.

Obviously not something that's going to happen its to radical of a change.

[BEEZERAL]

Maybe drop the equipment requirements and adopt a European soccer system where the top 3 teams in d 2 are forced to move up to d1 and the bottom 3 move down to d2

[GoRangrHky]

What was done to encourage teams to move to DI was to reduce the number of teams that make nationals. I understand that thinking, but the problem is that 95% of the teams that should be in DI that are in DII are going to make nationals anyway. The schools that were mentioned, at least from the ECRHA- Neumann, Brockport, West Chester- all are going to be making nationals in DII anyway. So the one negative thing that comes from being in DII doesn't really affect them. It affects Shippensburg and Temple, teams that do generally seem to fit the DII mold.

I really don't know how to fix that, however. One way you could potentially fix it is to give the schools you know are sandbagging 6am start times all season until they move up.

[Chapwi]

I really don't know how to fix that, however. One way you could potentially fix it is to give the schools you know are sandbagging 6am start times all season until they move up.

I love nothing more than waking up at 6am to beat a team 14-0. Im frightened of competition D1 teams are scary.

[GoRangrHky]

I love nothing more than waking up at 6am to beat a team 14-0. Im frightened of competition D1 teams are scary.

Piles of sarcasm aside, that's basically what it should come to. Look, my B team has played five 7am or earlier games in the six weekends they've played this year, and it is brutal.

[Ben Lambert]

I won't weigh in much here, but I am following with interest. A few questions to pose to those participating in this thread:


Is 3 semesters a long enough period of time to condemn the new divisional system as a failure? My personal feeling is that it'll need at least another year or two to start fully shaking out, as club leadership turns over and people who aren't indoctrinated into the old divisional system start coming on board. I know in the ECRHA we've seen extremely competitive games across both DI and DII this season.
It seems the common vein in this thread is that the most competitive teams (who can also meet DI requirements) should be playing Division I. If that is the case, what do you feel are things that can be done to induce those teams who you don't feel belong in DII to make the jump?
What issues other than a few teams "sandbagging" do people have with the current divisional system?


1. Probably not, but I have a feeling the change was made for a reason and hasn't really altered teams mentalities very much. (It's a good change but has had minimal impact)

2. Make an executive decision as a board to determine which teams move up. I know in talking to Fussner earlier this season, we both agreed that a few teams from our region shouldn't have had a choice and need to be D1. Give regional directors the opportunity to force a move among clubs perhaps.

3. I like the way the league runs, I really always have. Continue to nurture and encourage inter-regional play as much as possible. Bring back Winter Nationals

[Drexel63]

I'm still brainstorming regarding better ways to entice teams to move up... However...

Ben's #3 is spot on...
Winternationals in Detroit in Jan 05 was one of my favorite experiences in a Drexel uniform. We only got invited once, and the weather was miserable in Detroit in January, but it was special... The only thing that tops it is Drexel's lone Nationals appearance in STL...

Perhaps make this a two-for... Winternationals as the Winter-fest is in one of the least accessible spots possible for a roller hockey tournament (Key West flights are expensive...), and since many don't go for that reason, others don't go because no one else is going, etc... So, proposed solution... Move Winternationals to California... every year there is a post from d2 teams saying "omg i hope nattys is in cali this year" so that would definitely be a draw, but make Winternationals only available to D1 teams and invite only. Make the games count for inter-regional exhibitions so every game means something, and make the event special by adding in a playoff bracket on Sunday... Finally, and this is important towards the D2 draw, make all or part of the tournament fee part of league dues spread across D1 nationally... All teams have to pay is their way, and stay, for the tournament... I know many teams dont budget for things like Nationals and Winternationals would fall under that boat... making it is an afterthought for half of the nation, so playing in it would most certainly be out of pocket for most teams going...

I don't think that is the whole solution, obviously, but it would be a nice added touch to something a little more fundamental which I'm still trying to come up with...

[Ben Lambert]

...Winternationals in Detroit in Jan 05 was one of my favorite experiences in a Drexel uniform. We only got invited once, and the weather was miserable in Detroit in January, but it was special... The only thing that tops it is Drexel's lone Nationals appearance in STL...


Definitely a good time. Most physical CRH tournament EVER. Loved it.

[letsgoisles89]

yeah - have that executive meeting, and you can present these numbers that I put together on a spreadsheet while bored in class.

ECRHA 2009-2010 Goal Differentials

Division I Regular Season - (Doesn't count Exhibitions or Inter Regional Games)

Total Games Played: 84
Mean Goal Differential: 3.464
Std. Dev.: 2.613
% of Games decided by 3 goals or less: 61.90%
% of Games decided by 4-6 goals: 21.43%
% of Games decided by 7-9 goals: 16.67%


Division II Regular Season Games - (Doesn't count Exhibitions or Inter Regional Games)

Total Games Played: 139***
Mean Goal Differential: 5.209
Std. Dev.: 3.680
% of Games decided by 3 goals or less: 37.41%
% of Games decided by 4-6 goals: 27.34%
% of Games decided by 7 goals or more: 35.25%


Division II Regular Season Games NOT including West Chester, Neumann, Brockport, and Rowan - (Doesn't count Exhibitions or Inter Regional Games)

Total Games Played: 75
Mean Goal Differential: 3.467
Std. Dev.: 2.708
% of Games decided by 3 goals or less: 57.33%
% of Games decided by 4-6 goals: 25.33%
% of Games decided by 7 goals or more: 17.33%


Division II Regular Season Games That include atleast one of the following teams: West Chester, Neumann, Brockport, and Rowan - (Doesn't count Exhibitions or Inter Regional Games)

Total Games Played: 64
Mean Goal Differential: 7.250
Std. Dev.: 3.634
% of Games decided by 3 goals or less: 14.06%*^
% of Games decided by 4-6 goals: 29.69%**
% of Games decided by 7 goals or more: 56.25%




*=of the 9 games decided by 3 goals or less, 6 of them were in matchups between the 4 teams listed above.
^=represents 1 of the 9 games being a Neumann loss to Temple by 2 goals. The only loss by any of the 4 teams listed above in matchups not against each other.
**=of the 19 games decided by 4-6 goals, only 1 involved a matchup between 2 of the 4 teams listed above.
***I must have skipped over a D-2 game when entering numbers into the spreadsheet, because i have a total of 139 games played whern there were 140 (I did not count Maine's 4 forfeits), so therefore these numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close.


is it a coincidence that the #'s between d-1 and d-2 are almost identical when you remove those 4 teams from d-2? I think this gives away the answer of how to have balanced competition in both divisions.

I'm not saying all 4 of them should move up to d-1, but just wanted to point out some interesting numbers. It's perfectly fine to have a team or 2 that are clearly better than rest for a year or 2. However, 2 of those 4 teams have clearly been better than the others year after year, and should have moved up when the divisions re-aligned a few years back.

[show2606]

Question: how does a team in DII have an excellent year and not get targeted to move to DI?
I'll save you the time and energy and answer that for you. They can't. It's not like one team is running away with the league. We have had competitive games with rowan,neumann, and west chester. No matter how many teams you make move up or down divisions, there will always be someone on top. Let it go. Let the teams that have the funding, organization, and consistently dominant seasons move up on their own.

[GoRangrHky]

But that's it- you have had competitive games against 3 teams out of 15. The DI teams have had competitive games against EVERYONE. Penn State, the last place DI team, has had a season of being competitive in nearly every game. Buffalo, the top team, had a one goal game against the next to last team, Stony Brook, tied Army, a middle of the pack team, had a one goal game with last place Penn State. That's the way it is, and the way it should be.

[JLambertUMSL]

I did not hesitate- for a SECOND- once they changed what DI/DII was all about to put Hofstra in as a DI program. And we/ they have gotten smoked every year since. And I had a lot of kids telling me to put it back in to DII, but I never would. This is the first year since 06-07 they are even making regionals, much less nationals, and the kids wouldn't have it any other way. And in all honesty, as bad as the records have been, the scores have not been that lopsided. Every DI game is competitive. Not every DII game is.

I don't think you realize the impact that conforming to the DI requirements does to your appearance to your school, which leads to more funding and the like. What school looks at a team that's all mismatched, doesn't have a coach, shows up to the rink looking like a men's league team and thinks that is something they want to invest in?

Look- the glove requirements are simple. Don't have a color that's not a school color. Otherwise, go pick up a pair of black gloves, or ones that match. I get 5 emails a day from Hockey Giant, Hockey Overstock, RollerHockey.com, and a bunch of other places, and at least one is for gloves from the year before that are like 70% off. I'll forward you the links if you want. And helmets, I bet that 75% of guys have a black helmet already. That's how we picked. Made it easy for us to get the cash together to only have to get 4-5 more helmets for the guys that needed them.

Somehow this year Hofstra managed to find five (yes, five) coaches, an equipment manager, people to film every single game, and at the grand total cost of paying for the hotel room for the coaches when they go away. They did it, you can too. I know it's more of a hockey market or whatever, but it's not THAT hard. And these DII schools that are being mentioned, most of you already have coaches anyway.

So what it comes down to is just being willing to suck it up and be willing to not go 22-0 against inferior competition. Let DII be for the teams that are DII. I'm surprised that more of those schools don't want to go play DIII since they know that plenty of teams are sandbagging and they don't have a chance either. It'd be more fun for everyone if teams classified themselves the right way.

Awesome post. Keep up the good work. Wish I could find four more coaches! :)

[kevinsmithAZ]

I won't weigh in much here, but I am following with interest. A few questions to pose to those participating in this thread:

It seems the common vein in this thread is that the most competitive teams (who can also meet DI requirements) should be playing Division I. If that is the case, what do you feel are things that can be done to induce those teams who you don't feel belong in DII to make the jump?
What issues other than a few teams "sandbagging" do people have with the current divisional system?
[/LIST]

A few things that could be done:

1) Relegation-- someone mentioned it earlier. Bottom 2 or 3 teams from DI each year move down, Top 2 or 3 DII teams move up.

2) Don't completely scrap DII Nationals, but change it to an 8 team event (7 Regional Winners plus Nation's top Regular Season Record [if that team wins regionals, go to #2, etc.]) This would encourage more teams to play DI if they want to go to Nationals, and would make the DII Nationals a bigger deal as well. Either the top 2 or top 3 teams at this DII National Tournament would be asked to move to DI for the following season.

Winter Nationals for DI teams only seems like another good idea to get teams to go to DI.