Mercy Rule

[teamcarramrod]

It seems stupid that every region doesn't follows the same set of rules. Is this honestly necessary, http://www.ncrha.org/game.php?game_id=80569?

Why isn't a mercy rule used? Just doesn't make any sense. But what do i know, I'm sitting at home.

[Leaferguy]

Sometimes you need to test if the "1" on the left of the scoreboard works. Just in case, ya know?

[RichardGraham]

Hi Alex,

The NCRHA's changes the clock to running time after a team takes an eight-goal lead. I mentioned your question to Rob Coggin, the NCRHA's director of league operations and officiating, and he said, "This is collegiate athletics, we don't truncate games. There are very few, if any, college sports that end games early."

[GoRangrHky]

Softball I know for sure does. 8 runs after 5 innings. I don't think it's necessary in college roller hockey, however. In regional play, if you're a bad team, you're never going to get better playing games that don't go past the midway part. You've come all that way to play- you don't want to get 14 minutes of hockey and stop each time.

And there are plenty of college conferences that play by different sets of scoring rules.

[Seven]

I mentioned your question to Rob Coggin, the NCRHA's director of league operations and officiating, and he said, "This is collegiate athletics, we don't truncate games. There are very few, if any, college sports that end games early."
What's sad is that Rob and the rest of the NCRHA brass don't get the point of the question. The question, truly, isn't: "Why isn't there a National mercy rule?" but rather, "Why is there so much of an inequality between teams that a mercy rule is necessary?"

Other college sports don't have mercy rules because it isn't necessary. Teams are well organized, have talent, and the divisions are appropriate. In the NCRHA, however, divisions are politically-motivated cop-outs to get the most wins for your team and make your region look strong. The simple fact that teams with such horrible talent are even invited to Nationals says something about the NCRHA and inline hockey as a whole.

[MBurke]

What's sad is that Rob and the rest of the NCRHA brass don't get the point of the question. The question, truly, isn't: "Why isn't there a National mercy rule?" but rather, "Why is there so much of an inequality between teams that a mercy rule is necessary?"

Other college sports don't have mercy rules because it isn't necessary. Teams are well organized, have talent, and the divisions are appropriate. In the NCRHA, however, divisions are politically-motivated cop-outs to get the most wins for your team and make your region look strong. The simple fact that teams with such horrible talent are even invited to Nationals says something about the NCRHA and inline hockey as a whole.

http://www.achahockey.org/game_details.php?game_id=413866&schedule_id=19484

By this line of reasoning, I guess ice hockey and the ACHA are a joke, too. Shall I post some first-round NCAA basketball routs as well?

UT - Arlington was the only selection from their respective region for that division. It's a club sport and this was a B-division game.

Please do elaborate on how the divisions are "politically-motivated cop-outs" - which regions are unfairly benefiting from the divisional structure?

Better yet, how do you propose we bring more parity to the league?

[RichardGraham]

Hi Mike,

A quick Google search shows me this:

"The biggest NBA blowout was on December 19, 1991. The Heat lost to the Cavaliers by the score of 148-80, a 68-point deficit."

Would add more, but my ride's leaving! :)

[Leaferguy]

It's a trap.

[Seven]

By this line of reasoning, I guess ice hockey and the ACHA are a joke, too. Shall I post some first-round NCAA basketball routs as well?
Nice cherry picking a statistic, Mike.

Games from the ACHA M1 National Tournament that that had scores that were grossly disproportionate (which I would define as +6): 1 (out of 16 games). (Even if you said +5, it would only be 2 games.)

Games from the NCRHA National Championship Tournament D1 that had scores that were disproportionate (which I would define as +7 for inline hockey): 3 in the first round (out of 8). (As an aside, the three games were +10, not the minimum +7 for my definition.)


Please do elaborate on how the divisions are "politically-motivated cop-outs" - which regions are unfairly benefiting from the divisional structure?
Mike, you've been around long enough to see this as plain as day. DII has always been the ECRHA's golden child. And it doesn't help with the ECRHA doesn't suggest/require/budge teams like Neumann into DI, regardless of their tired excuses.


Better yet, how do you propose we bring more parity to the league?
National standards for divisions that are mandated and perks to being in higher divisions. You figure out the details.

[GoRangrHky]

Naturally, because of the high scoring nature of roller hockey compared to ice hockey, it is easier to have what you could blow out scores by a team that is significantly better. Any time you put together any group of teams, there are naturally going to be teams that are stronger than others

http://www.iihf.com/channels0809/ww/news/news-singleview/hash/5a0d184fb6/article/canada-cruises-in-ww-opener/2068.html

What do you suggest they do there? Limit the tournament to the US, Canada, Finland, and Sweden?

The ECRHA has no grounds to force any team into any division. Divisional classification is done on a national level. While I agree that they should move, there is nothing that a region can do to make that happen. Regardless, I do not see how divisions are politically motivated cop-outs, especially when the criteria for Division I continues to maintain that it is not about skill level.

Also, a quick look at the 2008 NCAA men's basketball tournament bracket shows quite a disparity in scores http://www.extreme-sportsbetting.com/images/printable_men_ncaa.gif Mississippi Valley scored 29 points against UCLA. There were blowouts all over the place, including in the regional finals (UCLA over Xavier and Memphis over Texas). Clearly the NCAA has done nothing in developing their tournament, and fan outrage is mounting (as was made clear by the only 72,456 showing up this evening at Ford Field).

[MBurke]

Nice cherry picking a statistic, Mike.

Games from the ACHA M1 National Tournament that that had scores that were grossly disproportionate (which I would define as +6): 1 (out of 16 games). (Even if you said +5, it would only be 2 games.)

Games from the NCRHA National Championship Tournament D1 that had scores that were disproportionate (which I would define as +7 for inline hockey): 3 in the first round (out of 8). (As an aside, the three games were +10, not the minimum +7 for my definition.)

You chose to pick a 17-0 game from the B division as your "cherry-picked" statistic. If the case you were trying to make was DI, fair enough - there have been some lopsided games, but also remember that the number of divisional bids (24) was set back in June as part of the incentive/perk program you're recommending. Apparently that wasn't enough for teams - as a result, teams that might not have been invited otherwise are out here.



Mike, you've been around long enough to see this as plain as day. DII has always been the ECRHA's golden child. And it doesn't help with the ECRHA doesn't suggest/require/budge teams like Neumann into DI, regardless of their tired excuses.

So you picked a B game score and are now talking about lopsided scores in DI as a justification that ECRHA DII teams should move up? Judging by this year's bracket, Neumann is the only one to win by your definition of lopsided above, but Central Michigan and UCSD put big thumpings on opponents, too.

And are you serious about ECRHA not nudging/suggesting that Neumann move up? We've been doing that for four years running. Ask Neumann. Ask any other team in the ECRHA that attends our ACC meetings. Many of the changes we made via the link I'm about to post (NCRHA divisional restructuring) were made to try to spur teams to make the move.


National standards for divisions that are mandated and perks to being in higher divisions. You figure out the details.

http://www.ncrha.org/article.php?article_id=52705

Now please address specifically what we're missing here, short of being able to MANDATE that teams change divisions.

If it's Neumann specifically you're complaining about, don't blame the region or NCRHA - short of actually mandating that they move, we've done just about everything in our power to try to facilitate that.

[DGlass]

UTA was under no requirement to attend Nationals. As B Division champions, they were extended an automatic bid and accepted.


Blowouts occur in every sport. I believe Chattanooga lost to UConn by 50+ points in the first round of the NCAA tournament this year. Chattanooga was there because they won their conference. A rather similar situation to UTA if you ask me.


To beat a dead horse, the staff and BOD of the ECRHA have no direct influence on divisional placement. As a BOD member, I would love to see Neumann advance to DI because I feel they are more than organized enough and more than talented enough to compete. They, however, do not feel the same for one reason or another. That is their decision until something changes and takes the decision away from them...

[Seven]

You chose to pick a 17-0 game from the B division as your "cherry-picked" statistic.


So you picked a B game score and are now talking about lopsided scores in DI as a justification that ECRHA DII teams should move up?

I didn't choose any such game. I'll wait for you to reread who did choose that game and await your apology to me before responding to the rest of your post.

[DCbullets14]

I think its important to keep in mind how easy it can be to come back in inline hockey. I know this season my Aihl team came back from being down 4 or 5 in the last 4 minutes of the game. I am not very familiar with the ncrha but wasnt there a really big come back involving UCI last year? I could be completly wrong about this and I am sorry if i am.

My thought is that there should never be a mercy rule because it prevents teams from playing the game. Even if a team is seriously out matched they still improve by simply being on the rink with a better team. Why make a rule that prevents less skilled players from being able to play a full game.

[MBurke]

Nice cherry picking a statistic, Mike.

Games from the ACHA M1 National Tournament that that had scores that were grossly disproportionate (which I would define as +6): 1 (out of 16 games). (Even if you said +5, it would only be 2 games.)

Games from the NCRHA National Championship Tournament D1 that had scores that were disproportionate (which I would define as +7 for inline hockey): 3 in the first round (out of 8). (As an aside, the three games were +10, not the minimum +7 for my definition.)

...

Mike, you've been around long enough to see this as plain as day. DII has always been the ECRHA's golden child. And it doesn't help with the ECRHA doesn't suggest/require/budge teams like Neumann into DI, regardless of their tired excuses.

...

National standards for divisions that are mandated and perks to being in higher divisions. You figure out the details.


I didn't choose any such game. I'll wait for you to reread who did choose that game and await your apology to me before responding to the rest of your post.

Sorry, one out of two. I'll take back the B-game comment, but the rest still stands. You're still mentioning lopsided DI scores, and I'm not sure how moving Neumann up (though I am certainly in support of them doing so) would solve that with the current field size, something we couldn't ratchet back down after it was announced.

We just restructured the divisions under a year ago - how quick (I'm not being facetious here) are people expecting things to shake out? One season isn't a lot of time.

[teamcarramrod]

more than half the posts here are exaggerated way to much. basketball, baseball, maybe even ice can't be compared to roller hockey. my point is that it was 9-0 at the end of the first, either end it at 10 goals or make a rule where they play two full periods after a 10 goal spread. A beating liek that isnt necessary and i am sure no team wants that to happen to them ( i know i wouldn't). It's embarrassing, why should the team go through it?

[thunder41]

I think that maybe in tournaments like NARCh or TORHS that mercy rules are appropriate because if too many goals are scored, the game exaggerates and it really alters the schedule and delays games. As for NCRHA, I think we need to consider the distance these teams travel. Do teams really want to drive a far distance to not play a full game? Granted, in some areas of the country teams travel more than others, and usually three to four games are played in a weekend, but just something to consider. Also, the longer these "blow-out" games happen, fights break out, and things just can get ugly. It really is an issue that should be considered, and may be a division specific rule, not league wide. Just my two cents.

Tyler DaSilva

[CUDangled]

Just to throw this in the mix...

When goals against are considered for a tie breaker, having a mercy rule can really skew the standings.

Lets say a team is capable of beating another team 20-0. First I would wonder why they were both it he same division, but that is another story. With a mercy rule you would only win by 8-0 or 10-0 or whatever your mercy rule is.

[Drexel63]

why should the team go through it?

Because it is their game to play... not yours to complain about... And while 17 is a little obnoxious (this coming from one of many coaches who would have sat any player for scoring the rest of the way past 10, if for no other reason than to distribute the wealth to other players on my team), it is the winning team's game to play as well..

[GoRangrHky]

I would ask the players from Penn State New Kensington, who kept on coming back year after year knowing that they were going to get trounced, but always seemed to be the happiest kids at the rink. (Anyone else remember their won over Briarcliffe? Stanley Cup moment right there)

[Patn Lawton]

I like to keep playing while getting killed because I like hockey. I usually take it as a challenge personally to stay with my guy and make sure he doesn't score. I don't think the running clock rule is a bad idea.

Suggestion: Anyone who wants a mercy rule can get up and leave after they are down 8 goals, and anyone who wants to continue to play and have fun stays.

[CUDangled]

What is the forfeit rule in the NCRHA? (What will the resulting score of the game be)?

1-0?

[GoRangrHky]

Correct. 1-0 final.

[William Bourque]

I would ask the players from Penn State New Kensington, who kept on coming back year after year knowing that they were going to get trounced, but always seemed to be the happiest kids at the rink. (Anyone else remember their won over Briarcliffe? Stanley Cup moment right there)

Agreed. Great group of guys. One of my favorite moments all all-time.

[teamcarramrod]

Because it is their game to play... not yours to complain about... And while 17 is a little obnoxious (this coming from one of many coaches who would have sat any player for scoring the rest of the way past 10, if for no other reason than to distribute the wealth to other players on my team), it is the winning team's game to play as well..

the winning team's game? they already won, the game is over and nobody wants to play it any more.

[DABXNY]

I hate seeing the score run up. As long as goals scored don't count towards a tie breaker pass the puck, dump it in and play some "D". One of the games I was watching was getting pretty nasty in the 3rd period cause the loosing team was completely outclassed.

[GoRangrHky]

UNC was leading Michigan St by 21 at the half. I wouldn't say there was much of a chance of MSU coming back, so maybe they just should have ended the game and cut to a rerun of CSI or something. Because no one wants to be there playing right now.

And we're college level athletes here. If you can't suck it up a bit and just deal when you're getting whooped (or even better, try to cut into the lead), then don't play competitive sports at this level. And this was the national championship tournament! These aren't unfortunate teams that aren't blessed with high level players and haven't won anything all year.

[RichardGraham]

Hey Guys,

Looks like this thread is going in the wrong direction fast. Try to stay above insults and personal attacks.

[teamcarramrod]

UNC was leading Michigan St by 21 at the half. I wouldn't say there was much of a chance of MSU coming back, so maybe they just should have ended the game and cut to a rerun of CSI or something. Because no one wants to be there playing right now.

be real. you are way out of context.

[Drexel63]

The bottom line is... some people regard NCRHA as COLLEGIATE ATHLETICS, and others as a pasttime...

In the context of Collegiate Athletics, a mercy rule is an awful idea, in my opinion. I've seen ACHA D3 games with scores as high as 22-3, (I can't find a reference to this, but I know before Neumann dropped out of D3, they would lose to RIT by scores that high, almost regularly... I would say this was circa 2001...

The point of the matter is, this happens in sport. A mercy rule takes away from the sport in my eyes, plain and simple. I'll tell you to mark my words here and now, if a mercy rule was ever adopted in the ECRHA, I'll pull my volunteer hat out of the ring the moment I discover it...

[mixingitup15]

It was NCAA DIII when Nuemann was getting whipped on and that was back in 2002-2004 they were weak..they did not drop from DIII...im sure they are glad they didnt as they were the DIII national champs...

I agree the mercy rule should not be dropped....there are many instances of teams getting smoked and improving...

if i was on the losing end i would be more embarassed if teams tooled around and make our team look foolish...keep playing hard and take your licks...

[Drexel63]

You are correct, RIT moved to D1, Neumann did not drop... I knew that, but somehow screwed it up in my head...