Rule Question

[Facewash]

Lately I've been seeing people pull the "move" where they place the toe of the stick blade on top of the puck and drag it around. I never used to see people do it in any league, but now I've seen players do it in games with increasing regularity. My question is this: Is it a penalty to do this? I've never seen it called in a game, but I'm not sure if it's just the refs missing it or if it's legal. Anyone know for sure either way?

[PGHhockey]

Illegal under AAU/USARS rules.

Same reason that you can't turn your blade over when hooking/checking someone's stick.

[quick_dry]

haven't seen anyone do that in about 10 years, now its all kids trying michigan..

what rules do you play under?

[Facewash]

I just saw it done in some men's league by a kid who claimed it was legal, and that he had done it in a game that he played for Team USA (He was wearing a Team USA Jersey and was very good minus that garbage "move").

[HockCity21]

I was told it was legal because as I understand it you are not aloud to place the toe of your blade on top of the puck but says nothing of the heel or bottom of the stick... regardless its a sick move an they shouldn't outlaw it. The reason its become more prevalent is because of the spreading of the rocket puck more people have realized its easy to do with the rocket puck

[Facewash]

It's not a sick move. It takes literally zero skill to place your stick on top of a puck and have it basically locked in there by the pegs.

[DCbullets14]

I havent seen anyone use the toe of the stick. Its a solid move if you can do it with the bottom of the blade but absolutly stupid if your doing it with the toe. It takes your stick out of a shooting position and does not protect the puck at all

[PGHhockey]

Doing it with the heel of your stick is perfectly legal.

It's really only useful for spin moves...much easier to maintain control of the puck.

And it's easy to do with any puck, not just the rocket.

[DannyG]

as one of the five people who made the current USA Hockey InLine rule book...

The blade toe move was deemed as one of those showboating things that has "no redeeming social value..."

in other words, the guy above who said it ain't a sick move is correct.

The game is meant to be played by moving the puck along the playing surface with your stick in a variety of propellant motions, not clamping down on the puck in any manner.

Frankly, you are showing disrespect to the game itself by doing otherwise.

[PGHhockey]

I havent seen anyone use the toe of the stick. Its a solid move if you can do it with the bottom of the blade but absolutly stupid if your doing it with the toe. It takes your stick out of a shooting position and does not protect the puck at all

I think that particular move is just a move for guys who don't have fast enough hands to do a real toe drag :)

[quick_dry]

ugh, this all sounds like that crud over Itan pulling a move in that NARCh final - and you get these images conjured of old banker types with serious faces "thats not how you do thing in _proper_ society"

No redeeming social value - as if a toe drag has social value, or standing the guys body up versus skilfully picking the puck off his stick has 'social value'.

Putting the toe of the stick in the puck does nothing to protect it from being picked off, a good tap on the stick and control is lost.

Why in hockey, is 'unorthodox' always 'disrespectful' - these discussions remind me of the alley-oop in Semi-Pro.

[ACCCT2]

ugh, this all sounds like that crud over Itan pulling a move in that NARCh final - and you get these images conjured of old banker types with serious faces "thats not how you do thing in _proper_ society"

No redeeming social value - as if a toe drag has social value, or standing the guys body up versus skilfully picking the puck off his stick has 'social value'.

Putting the toe of the stick in the puck does nothing to protect it from being picked off, a good tap on the stick and control is lost.

Why in hockey, is 'unorthodox' always 'disrespectful' - these discussions remind me of the alley-oop in Semi-Pro.

I 100% agree.

Funny how in our sport (ice or inline) the very guys who go on and on and on ad nauseam about how certain skill moves, dashing play or flashy goal-scoring is somehow NOT 'respecting' the sport, and yet those same highly 'principled' gentlemen have absolutely NO problem whatsoever DIS-respecting another athlete and goon-pummeling another GAME-playing human being in advocating fighting and its so called 'honorable place' in the game. TOTALLY hypocritical in MY opinion (and why OUR up-coming events will be featuring a ZERO tolerence policy -- ONE punch & DONE for the entire event).

[PGHhockey]

ugh, this all sounds like that crud over Itan pulling a move in that NARCh final - and you get these images conjured of old banker types with serious faces "thats not how you do thing in _proper_ society"

No redeeming social value - as if a toe drag has social value, or standing the guys body up versus skilfully picking the puck off his stick has 'social value'.

Putting the toe of the stick in the puck does nothing to protect it from being picked off, a good tap on the stick and control is lost.

Why in hockey, is 'unorthodox' always 'disrespectful' - these discussions remind me of the alley-oop in Semi-Pro.

Steven...always fun to read your responses because you have such a different perspective than we do here in the States. It's refreshing.

[DannyG]

...you get these images conjured of old banker types with serious faces "thats not how you do thing in _proper_ society" No redeeming social value...why in hockey, is 'unorthodox' always 'disrespectful' - these discussions remind me of the alley-oop in Semi-Pro.

the best game ever...

was always the one on the sandlot...the playground..the empty lot...the winter pond or river...you vs the other guy, asking no quarter, giving none, summoning up all your reserve to do your best, whatever that was...

but you never showboated, you never broke the rules, you never hedged on whatever-you-could-get-away-with...you payed fair, hard, and clean. You respected your opponent, and you both respected the game itself, 'cause if you won doing anything else, the win was hollow, and you knew it.

The guy asked for the rule, and I guess I made the mistake of offering a perspective/explanation of what was behind the rule...I won't make that mistake again. Please don't call my explanation that "proper society" nonesense (the nice word, not the one I want to use).

Get it: nobody said unorthodoxy = disrespect. If you really, truly don't understand it, then it's your loss, not mine, nor that of any true player of this game.

[quick_dry]

but you never showboated, you never broke the rules, you never hedged on whatever-you-could-get-away-with...you payed fair, hard, and clean. You respected your opponent, and you both respected the game itself, 'cause if you won doing anything else, the win was hollow, and you knew it.

see, that still doesn't give any helpful definition - other than perhaps saying it is showboating - but is amazing puckhandling also 'showboating' if your opponents have hands like feet? If it is showboating by going above and beyond what is required to beat your opponent - then, to me, that suggests that there is room for toe drags, between the legs, michigans, blade-in-puck spinaramas, and what not - you might not need it at your local drop-in session, but what about against tough opposition when the championship hangs in the balance?

If this play doesn't seem to be illegal in the OP's league, is it a 'hollow win' from using it? because it isn't cheating (in that league), I don't see it as unsportsmanlike, and besides general ideas of sportsmanship - how do we define when a game is being 'respected'? I think the game defines itself in the rules it is played under.

My family was the one who did the rulebook writing too, we formulated our first ones, then adapted them and spent days poring over every detail of what to keep/change when we adopted IIHF, and then what to keep/ditch/adapt when the country moved towards FIRS rules. We never bothered to explicitly take out the play in question, cause at the end of the day - who cares, it is easy to strip, and nobody could really point out a good reason to say why it was unfair or against the spirit of the game. Interestingly IIHF left that play in, while FIRS took it out IIRC.

(I'm actually glad people did give their opinion, its nice to have discussions on here that aren't all US centric :) )

I've just never heard a good explanation of why or how this move (or any other 'fancy' stuff) 'disrespects the game'?

(it isn't stuff that I do personally, but I don't begrudge those that want to)

(nobody likes the 'chest puffing - here is my hockey resume' type posts, but I'd like to think that after playing and enjoying roller hockey for nearly 20 years, from local league to world championships (even a few trips to NARCh) ... I might be a 'true player of this game'. My viewpoint is obviously just different to yours)

(Did USA Hockey InLine make many modifications to the standard IIHF inline rules? we really only changed the icing rule to suit our smaller rinks used at club level. There was also a change to power play offsides, because the original rule as formulated by IIHF was flawed - aka awesome if you knew the book inside out - as team on the PK, you could carry the puck out over the line then pull it back into the zone and force the special PP offside rule to be called)

[GoRangrHky]

As I recall, the tennis court games were where we tried all of our Theo Fleury celebrations!! :D

[ACCCT2]

the best game ever...

was always the one on the sandlot...the playground..the empty lot...the winter pond or river...you vs the other guy, asking no quarter, giving none, summoning up all your reserve to do your best, whatever that was...

but you never showboated, you never broke the rules, you never hedged on whatever-you-could-get-away-with...you payed fair, hard, and clean. You respected your opponent, and you both respected the game itself, 'cause if you won doing anything else, the win was hollow, and you knew it.

The guy asked for the rule, and I guess I made the mistake of offering a perspective/explanation of what was behind the rule...I won't make that mistake again. Please don't call my explanation that "proper society" nonesense (the nice word, not the one I want to use).

Get it: nobody said unorthodoxy = disrespect. If you really, truly don't understand it, then it's your loss, not mine, nor that of any true player of this game.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE. A playground is EVER and almost ALWAYS about "showboating" -- and you absolutely CAN "respect your opponent" even while "Air-Jordan-ing" or "Gretzky-ing" them into rim-retreat or shinny-submission.:cool:


As I recall, the tennis court games were where we tried all of our Theo Fleury celebrations!! :D

EXACTLY!;)


see, that still doesn't give any helpful definition - other than perhaps saying it is showboating - but is amazing puckhandling also 'showboating' if your opponents have hands like feet? If it is showboating by going above and beyond what is required to beat your opponent - then, to me, that suggests that there is room for toe drags, between the legs, michigans, blade-in-puck spinaramas, and what not - you might not need it at your local drop-in session, but what about against tough opposition when the championship hangs in the balance?

If this play doesn't seem to be illegal in the OP's league, is it a 'hollow win' from using it? because it isn't cheating (in that league), I don't see it as unsportsmanlike, and besides general ideas of sportsmanship - how do we define when a game is being 'respected'? I think the game defines itself in the rules it is played under.

...

(I'm actually glad people did give their opinion, its nice to have discussions on here that aren't all US centric :) )

I've just never heard a good explanation of why or how this move (or any other 'fancy' stuff) 'disrespects the game'?

(it isn't stuff that I do personally, but I don't begrudge those that want to)

(nobody likes the 'chest puffing - here is my hockey resume' type posts, but I'd like to think that after playing and enjoying roller hockey for nearly 20 years, from local league to world championships (even a few trips to NARCh) ... I might be a 'true player of this game'. My viewpoint is obviously just different to yours)

RIGHT ON AGAIN!:)

[DannyG]

I totally disagree. A playground is ever and almost always about "showboating." You absolutely can "respect your opponent" even while "Air-Jordan-ing" or "Gretzky-ing" them into rim-retreat or shinny-submission.

Now I see the error of my ways. You are obviously correct. We see this every day, all across the planet, and in just about any sport you can name.

I keep forgetting that we are dealng with a differential of generational perspectives, and I apologize for that. I gather that for most of my friends here, your pre- and teenage playground days were back in the 1970's-1990's

My playground was back in the 1950's. I realize that my perspective is thereby not particularly valid.

I still believe, however: You score, you look to the guy who gave you the pass, and you line up for the next face off...period.

[ACCCT2]

Now I see the error of my ways. You are obviously correct. We see this every day, all across the planet, and in just about any sport you can name.

I keep forgetting that we are dealng with a differential of generational perspectives, and I apologize for that. I gather that for most of my friends here, your pre- and teenage playground days were back in the 1970's-1990's

My playground was back in the 1950's. I realize that my perspective is thereby not particularly valid.

I still believe, however: You score, you look to the guy who gave you the pass, and you line up for the next face off...period.

I grew up (at least I THINK I did?:confused:) in the late-60's & 70's, so I believe that my playground generation kind of 'bridged' the "old school" and "new school" of playground/recreational sportsmanship and in-play decorum.

While the (Dallas Cowboys coaching legend) Tom Landry "Act like you've been there before" ethos is definitely something that has it's place in any level of sport, it's much more meaningful and effective at the (paid-to-play) "pro" level. I think that especially in the case of what I'd call "spectacular" how-did-they-DO-that scoring, totally clinical, "terminator-like" ("I'LL BE BACK.") emotionless or joyless scoring celebrations -- especially in sports like soccer, hockey, and to a lesser extent American football, where scoring goals or points are MUCH MUCH harder to come by than say basketball or even baseball -- well, it kinda' flushes a good portion of the emotional passion and intensity, as well as even some of the important potential momentum than CAN be positive resultant by-products of such "spectacular" plays, goals and joyful celebrations -- for those of us who actually saw the REAL "Miracle" of 1980 (NOT the movie), this dynamic was clearly in effect on BOTH teams: the Americans with their emotional game played BETTER and the machine-like Russians, having never really had to 'dig deeper' into themselves to counter the emotional momentum of the Americans' game, had no emotional 'well' to go to and even CHOKED (in NOT pulling Myshkin) from NOT being able to properly and effectively harness their emotions. Watching the Americans celebrate their "Miracle" win, many of the (VERY classy) Russian players later commented that this was what was missing not only from their game, but from their society and political system as well, and players like Slava Fetisov and Igor Larionov made up their minds then and there that they were going to challenge the Russian hockey system and authorities to open the game and their opportunities within in it. Now were graced with the incredibly irony of clearly passionate and emotional players like Ovechkin and his "celebrations" being publicly ripped by (jealous?) Canuckle-heads like Don Cherry and Mike Milbury, of ALL people (funny, these guys apparently and very hypocritically have NO problem whatsoever with Crosby's "celebrations", cheap-shots or constant whining however).

Let's face it, "celebrating" a goal or "spectacular" play -- especially in soccer, hockey or football -- goes WAY, WAY back into the history and traditions of each sport.

Just my .02cents worth.;)