Rules Question

[fsunoleshockey]

I have a question regarding fighting/ throwing punches. It was my understanding that after the first punch is thrown, the offending player is automatically ejected from that game and the next game. There were several instances where players from opposing teams threw multiple punches at our players. Our players showed self control and didn't fight back. The offending players received minor rough penalties. Our players were guilty of roughing, and talking smack, but they didn't throw any punches.

[PGHhockey]

What league? Each league looks at it differently.

But, in general, punch = fight = game misconduct/suspension.

But, then again, was it a punch? Was it a push to the chest that accidentally got up high? Was it a 'face-wash'?

There's a lot of gray area...

[fsunoleshockey]

secrhl, they were definite punches to the head/face.

[FAUplayer]

We had a lot of garbage going on in our game, but I do not recall any player on either side throwing a punch. Are you referring to your USF game (I remember some trash going on after the game; quite comical even)?

[BEEZERAL]

yo do realize that these same refs decided that setting a Pick was allowed as long as the player was not moving ALA basketball. They also decided that there is no such thing as a crease in roller hockey and that a defending player (not the goalie) can deliberately cover the puck in the crease without penalty. it is also considered unsportsmanlike to yell to the ref that somone was just hooked and not use one profanity or agressive word.

[William Bourque]

it is also considered unsportsmanlike to yell to the ref that somone was just hooked and not use one profanity or agressive word.

"Any player who challenges or disputes the ruling of an official shall be assessed a minor penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct"

Directly from the rule book. So if your yelling to the ref to make a call, he is within the rights of the rulebook to hit you with an unsportsmanlike.

[BEEZERAL]

Even when it is the teams captain who has the right to question an official?

[William Bourque]

"A complaint about a penalty is not an Interpretation of the Rules and a minor penalty shall be assessed to any Captain or other player making such a complaint"

[BEEZERAL]

well then congrats on being the league boy scout, because if every rule was actually enforced like that, then this league would be tottally different.

[William Bourque]

Boy Scout...nice

Actually, the only reason I even could quote the rule book on that is because I reread the entire thing after having a hard time dealing with the refs two weekends ago in Mount Pleasant.

[fsunoleshockey]

Before this board gets hijacked, I've found that the refs in the secrhl have been bad all season.

[hockey1]

Before this board gets hijacked, I've found that the refs in the secrhl have been bad all season.

My team just traveled down there to play, the reffing was the worst I have ever seen.

[CSteamer]

I think the refs in the northern part of the SECRHL have always done a good job. They let a lot of stuff go and let you play hockey. Its the refs in florida that call every single little push or bump then people get pissed off and things get out of hand.

[fsunoleshockey]

it's not that they call everything, it's that they mix up calls, forget rules, misinterpret rules, or just make stuff up as they go.

[PGHhockey]

Boy Scout...nice

Actually, the only reason I even could quote the rule book on that is because I reread the entire thing after having a hard time dealing with the refs two weekends ago in Mount Pleasant.

We did have some great officiating this past weekend in Mt Pleasant at the Madden tournament - Jake Cole and Dave Thomas called the game the way a Men's tournament should be called. They let us play, but they set a clear standard, and they didn't take any backtalk from players.

But, we also had some very, very poor officiating as well. Which is unfortunate, but like I told my team, you just have to do 2 things in that type of game:

1) Clean up your game and use your skating
2) Turn the other cheek when you take a shot and it's a no-call

I know it's hard to do, but that's the only way a team can make it through a poorly officiated game.

FSU, I feel your pain. We've all been there. There just aren't enough good refs to go around. There's a LOT of good hockey being played out there. On ice, on blades, and even in shoes.

There are only so many people with the right mindset and personality to even want to ref. There are even less that want to do it well. And then there are even less that can/will travel. It's a tough job, and we need more tough people to do it.

[BEEZERAL]

These refs are obviously not perfect. They are not full time ref's like the NHL. They will make mistakes. But it has been horrendous these past 2 weekends. Up in Beachton one of the Ref's was against us from game one. I had never seen him before so there was no way we could have upset him at a previous weekend. in 4 games we played he did not make ONE call that favored our team. not one penalty against the team we were playing. What made it worse, is that he created goals and penalties against us. There was one "goal" where the opposing player skated down the boards and fired a wrist shot short-side that ended up on the back side of the net. Our player pulled the puck off the back of the net and attempted to continue play when this one ref blew the whistle and signaled that a goal was scored. This obviously caused some confusion from our team. After inspecting the net, the referee decided that there was a whole in the netting on the OPPOSITE side of the net that the puck went through then carried around the back of the net and settled on the back of the net on the short-side. It was absolutely rediculous and so was the explanation. That was just one issue. I know it is difficult and costly, but IMO the referees for Regionals should come from another conference in order to limit the opportunity for Bias. This is club hockey, and in the SECRHL there are many teams that share huge football rivalries that IMO have affected the neutrality of the referee's. The FSU hockey team is not the FSU football team and neither is Miami, or UF's hockey teams. These pivitol games should not be refereed by a UM, FSU, OR UF fan who is bred to despise anything that comes from the other two schools.

I am sure this happens with other rivalries and different areas. I just decided to use this one as an example.

[NCRHA]

I would encourage every one of you to contact, or have your team rep contact, your League Director or Referee In Chief. The problem is not going to get solved (or possibly not even noticed) on the message board.

For the SECRHL, their information can be found here.

http://secrhl.org/staff.php

For other regions, just change the website address (change secrhl.org to wcrhl.com, greatplainshockey.com, ecrha.net, etc.)

[BEEZERAL]

No, disrespect, but in situations like these the Organization will ALWAYS be on the side of its hired officials. IMO the only thing that can happen by saying something officially is putting your team further in the cross-hairs.

[William Bourque]

No, disrespect, but in situations like these the Organization will ALWAYS be on the side of its hired officials. IMO the only thing that can happen by saying something officially is putting your team further in the cross-hairs.

It's the teams money that is used to hire the money. The organization in the end answers to the teams.

[BEEZERAL]

In an ideal world, absolutely. but the fact is that organizations like the NCRHA, NARCH, TORHS, and all the other ones will ALWAYS side with the officials. I have been on both sides of the ref's opinion, and no matter how obvious the mistake by the referee is. I was almost banned for life from every NARCH tournament after I lost it when a ref ruled that it was a legal play to take a baseball swing and knock my glove which had the puck firmly secured in it out of my hand and right into the net. During the hearing the director of the tournament looked at the video evidence of the play and took the side of the official that he made the right call. I was forced to sign an offical apology and was suspended the rest of that tournament.

The fact is that it is much easier for the organizations to think that their refs are doing the best they can and are not biased at all. I have tried in the past to go about things the right way. All it does is put a bulls-eye on my and my teams back. The only way there will be change is if the organization itself pulls its head out of the sand and realizes that there is a problem. Do I think the SECRHL has a problem? In ways yes. I have seen in multiple games where there were calls literally invented and rules rewritten to favor one team over the other. There are also times when the refs are solid. I honestly think that there would be no problems at Regionals if the SECRHL used out of conference officials

[shakezula]

i think the officiating has been pretty good for the couple tournaments that i have been at, i havent watched all the games but the ones ive seen its pretty ok... the tournament in ft myers recently was pretty physical, not a bad thing but sometimes it leads up too altercations...its all about balancing calls and keeping the game at a certain level...as for the fsu and ut game im guessing, i actually left to get something to eat right before lol i heard about it so i cant say anything about that...

[tsuG0alie]

Apparently you can get ejected for breaking up a fight. I'm sure a handful of people saw the Truman-LU fight (which was, in fact, inexcusable). Yet if you're a player - don't try to keep guys from fighting/break up a fight. Since there are only two refs - there's no one to sit back and call the penalties. I got ejected without even throwing a punch.

[CUDangled]

Before this board gets hijacked, I've found that the refs in the secrhl have been bad all season.

You must be a freshman. The rest of the SECRHL "discovered" this back in 2005 when the league ditched a good officiating crew over politics.

[CUDangled]

Even when it is the teams captain who has the right to question an official?

The captain can ASK for clarification, not question the officials judgement. And certainly not in a loud, obnoxious manner. The rule of thumb is that if you politely ask/say something to the ref in a conversational tone, you will probably be okay, but if you shout something across the rink so that everyone can hear it, you may get a penalty.

[PGHhockey]

You must be a freshman. The rest of the SECRHL "discovered" this back in 2005 when the league ditched a good officiating crew over politics.

Unfortunately, politics is the reason that many not-so-good officials are still employed.

And, when big brawls break out, and you go and try to help break it up, you really only make things worse. 95% of fights begin 1-on-1. It turns into a brawl when others make the (stupid) choice to get involved - peacefully or violently. I know it's hard to do, but you gotta stay away. And goalies, you absolutely have to stay in your crease.

If a brawl breaks out, I'm going to do my best to control the situation and protect the players (and myself).

The league should use the timekeeper/scorekeeper in these situations. Fight breaks out - scorekeeper grabs pen/paper and starts writing down numbers. They compare these notes with referee comments/notes and come up with a consensus. They say the scorekeeper/timekeeper is the "3rd official" - why not use them?

On a side note...to all you refs out there...don't you just hate it when a fight breaks out in your zone and your partner isn't exactly hustling to get in there and help you? I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've either A) had to let a fight go on, or B) break it up myself (p.s. - don't do that).

Sucks.

[CUDangled]

Many times the scorekeeper is just some kid the rink hires who barely understands how to operate the clock. It would be scary to think that they might be influencing an officials decision when it comes time to rule on penalties. But...in principle I see your point.

[William Bourque]

Many times the scorekeeper is just some kid the rink hires who barely understands how to operate the clock. It would be scary to think that they might be influencing an officials decision when it comes time to rule on penalties. But...in principle I see your point.

For the ECRHA Regional Tournament, the ECRHA is going to have 4 sets of eyes on the games at all times. The two refs who are on the floor, another Box Official (league staff/off rink ref) and the TK in the box for the games. I am sure this is not something that is feasible for all regions, but this is how we will be doing it this weekend.

[WCRHL]

For the ECRHA Regional Tournament, the ECRHA is going to have 4 sets of eyes on the games at all times. The two refs who are on the floor, another Box Official (league staff/off rink ref) and the TK in the box for the games. I am sure this is not something that is feasible for all regions, but this is how we will be doing it this weekend.

The WCRHL has basically done this the last 2 events for our super-competitive Division I games. It has proven to be necessary. It helps the scorekeepers, helps to keep the coaches/players in check, and gives the league the best possible view/ear to the game, should something come up and discipline need to be dealt out.

It will be done even more so at Regionals.

[PGHhockey]

For the ECRHA Regional Tournament, the ECRHA is going to have 4 sets of eyes on the games at all times. The two refs who are on the floor, another Box Official (league staff/off rink ref) and the TK in the box for the games. I am sure this is not something that is feasible for all regions, but this is how we will be doing it this weekend.

I love the concept of an off-rink official. It's just unfortunate that I don't think many leagues/teams have the budget to pay another person.

Not only can the off-rink official help with altercations, but it should be a senior official who can provide feedback for the on-rink officials.

Oh, and if anybody needs one, that's pretty much my calling. Let me know :)

[DGlass]

I rarely post on here anymore, but I felt inclined to regarding this issue. I have been involved with the ECRHA for a long time, since before it was the ECRHA in fact.

As a current Board member, I have no problem saying that the vast majority of the time I will trust an official over a player regarding a call I did not witness firsthand. While all of our officials do make mistakes, I tend to trust an "impartial" official to a player. I put quotations around impartial because I realize that, over time, reputations develop and officials can grow some minor biases. As a Flyers fan (yes, I'm playing that card), I would argue you even see it in the NHL. Not to mention my personal experiences while playing for Pitt; I am 100% convinced that some officials had it out for us...(I'm sure I will get an earful for that remark).

That being said, if I witness exceptionally poor officiating or otherwise feel the need, I will address my concerns with our RICs and Commissioner. I will alert them to keep an eye out for XYZ and ask them to address it with that official personally.

I also try and make a point to discuss the officiating with players and coaches. When an issue arises, I will take their issue to the appropriate people and/or suggest they have their Coach/Captain/ACC Rep discuss this with the Commissioner and, if appropriate, the RICs.

As William Bourque so kindly pointed out, the money used to pay officials (and timekeepers and event directors) is coming from the players' wallets. They are ultimately the bosses of the league.

In the ECRHA, each club/school elects an ACC Representative. The ACC reps elect a Board of Directors. The BOD hires staff, including a Referee-In-Chief (the ECRHA currently has multiple), who in turn hire the officials for weekend events.

When the ACC votes on a course of action, the BOD is REQUIRED to listen and comply. We can and will make suggestions from our experience, but this is still your league.

David Glass
ECRHA Board of Directors

[RichardGraham]

David,

With posts like that one, you should post more often, not less. Great work.

[CUDangled]

As William Bourque so kindly pointed out, the money used to pay officials (and timekeepers and event directors) is coming from the players' wallets. They are ultimately the bosses of the league.


This is a good point. I have made it in the past but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. Some regions have great officials, some are using the less than "top notch" crews because that is only guys they can get to work for what they are willing to pay.

I have also said this before, but I will re-state it. Perhaps in the off-season meetings, the teams will think about this and propose it to their leagues if they have issues.

If you paid the officials $2 more per game and played 20 games per season
$2 * 2 refs * 20 games = $80! That's it
Now you divide that between two teams (your team and your opponents).
That's $40 for your team. Roughly $4 a player!

From my experience, you would be able to bring in a much more experienced crew for your games if you were offering a little more money. That could be the difference between some washed up "has been" (or never was) to a top notch, experienced and well respected official. Every region of this country has good officials...they just aren't always used.

Climbing into my "flame suit" now...but you know I'm right.

[William Bourque]

David,

With posts like that one, you should post more often, not less. Great work.

Don't encourage him.

[BEEZERAL]

More money could solve some of the problems, but something MUST be done. Mr. Glass has some great points and confirmed my point that the official's word is a trump card. I think he understated the role bias plays in officiating especially down in the secrhl where some of these rivalries affect every walk of life and have clearly spilled over into roller hockey. Some of the calls that have been made in these games are so outrageous that the only explanation is that the official has it in for a team. ANYONE who has ever played hockey knows that when a player other than the goalie covers the puck inside the crease, it is an automatic penalty shot. In this case the official admitted right away that the position player covered the puck INSIDE the crease, but ruled that there is no such thing as a crease in roller hockey and if this were Ice Hockey he would have called for a penalty shot. I have no reasonable explanation. There is no way a PAID official does not know this rule. I refuse to believe he made an honest mistake. If this was a one time thing, I would not make such a big deal about it. But it seems that every weekend, the officiating just gets worse. It isnt even inconsistency with stick work or letting the physical play get out of hand, these officials basically are making up rules as they go, and questioning them gets you 2 minutes guaranteed.