Roller Hockey Alliance

[Doug Jones]

Well, Charley has it up and the site looks fantastic!

http://www.thepiha.com/

check out the front page story on PIHA

I think it's great that all of these people involved are trying to work together to better the sport and help "ALL" of us grow it!!!

Our rink is signing up for RHA immediately!!

[Superstar9]

I think this news is huge....with the people that are involved, I'd say it's a step in the right direction for the sport. You can't really hate on anything positive that's being done, the sport needs this. Give them a chance.

[calihockey]

I like the idea of having all coaches certified and having more uniformity like USA Hockey for ice, but I also see the issue with the money. Enough issues in the past gives people some justification for being so pessimistic. It is probably best to see how it all pans out before passing judgment. Doug, Daryn and Tim have all invested way too much of their lives into roller hockey just to lumped in with some of the fly by night groups and groups with less focus on the growth of the sport. I will be signing up for it that's for sure.

[Doug Jones]

Let's be perfectly honest about this (and I have zero vested interest in this, so take this as an objective opinion): this is just another money-making scheme to pry more dollars out of people's pockets. Want to become a member? That'll be $30. Want to be certified? That'll be more money. Tell me: what exactly do these people get out of this? Is this organization meant to replace the relationships with USA Hockey Inline and AAU?

Pretty soon it'll be RHA insurance for $x, I'm sure.

An organization like this is needed, but not as a cost to people; it needs to be truly nonprofit and serve as a relationship builder between organizations. Look at the founding members. It's as if roller hockey's family free is incestuous. The idea is good, but I don't see this working out as planned, particularly because it's obvious to me that the purpose of this organization is to line pockets even more so than before. Just more unqualified people starting another organization that requires payment. Go figure.

I'm not even remotely impressed.

Let's give this an opportunity to present itself first and to show it's plan and growth before we start stating it's a "moneymaking scheme" to take more from people.

Not to be a jerk, but I think you meant family "tree" not "free" as you posted.

I think RHA will bring alot to ALL those who wish to join and benefit from it's product.

[billybob]

Doug, your the best! I just love the way you spin things bro! Keep up the good work.

Convinced me, I'm signing my rink up right now!

Billy Bob

[billybob]

I forgot I don't have a rink, what da heck was I thinking?

I would like to know why they left USAHIL? weren't they non profit?

[GoJoin]

Seems like a good idea, and it is a great start. I have been developing what I believe will be something to handle similar goals (for free, or as close to it as possible) for the past year+. I have been working on fine tuning this tirelessly for the past few months, and I can give any interested parties information upon request.

[Mtour71]

The right people are involved! These people care about our sport! Thats all that I am going to say right now...:cool:

[InlineMBA]

Sure is nice to see NARCh, TORHS, State Wars and PIHA all "on the same page". It can only be a good thing for the sport.

Now, if only AAU and AIHL would come on board. However, IMO - that's highly unlikely.

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

[Daryn G - NARCh]

Oldtimer,

Let me enlighten you on a few things, at least from the standpoint of NARCh. First off, before I took over NARCh we had our own insurance, NARCh Sanction. When I took over I stopped doing NARCh Sanction, which was very profitable, and joined USAHIL in an effort to unite the sport. I actually met with AAU too before making a decision on the direction, but what the two offered did not compare. I could read right through the fluff and instead joined the organization that seemed to have true structure.

Fast forward 6 years. Even though NARCh is growing, the sport is shrinking, USAHIL has cut employees, and the other organization has operated unethically along the way in terms of their dealings with me. (That’s my opinion based on my experience, let’s not get into another off topic debate.)

It’s probably common knowledge that part of any membership goes to insurance, and the other part goes towards things that the organization sees fit. I’m a believer that money can be used more efficiently to help new players get involved in the sport as well as help unite the sport.

I could charge $30 and put that money in my pocket. To be honest, nobody that plays NARCh would grumble too much. It’s the standard that they’re used to, they get a great magazine in the summer that cost me a whole lot of money to produce, and we go above and beyond to offer a great experience. If I were in this for the purpose of solely making money, this would be a no-brainer. I staff people to collect the money and assure membership anyway, but then hand it over.

Instead I’ve decided to join the RHA, a non-profit organization. The money that is collected from my members will not go into people’s pockets. It will go towards efforts to try to grow the sport and make the sport better for those that currently play. If you don’t believe that, so be it. You don’t have to join. Just as you may not join, there are many others that don’t even know this board exist and certainly don’t know you, and since they don’t know who you are, I doubt they’ll value your opinion over those they’ve grown to trust.

I make a living at this sport and have since 1991. Have you had the same job since 1991? If you have, then I’d guess you understand the bond and dedication you have to it.

Hate if you want, but this is not a money maker as you like to assume. I will make money if NARCh grows by new players getting into the sport. That’s what I’m optimistic about with this group.

You’ve never seen any false claims with anything I’ve been part of . I’ve never said, “NARCh will have 600 teams” and then you show up and there’s 300. I’m a believer in under selling and over delivering, and I think others involved in RHA are the same.

One thing I haven’t seen too much of out of either existing sanctioning body is follow through. To be critical of USAHIL, there’s less inline coverage in their magazine then before when it was promised that there would be more. Referee certification programs are anemic. For coaching they now want you to get certified with the ice side. To their defense, they do have well prepared printed material like coaching manuals and rulebooks. AAU does not.

What each organization does, and trying to attach a value to that can be argued until the cows come home. What irritates me is the lack of true action and instead lip service. I feel confident that RHA will be more “action” and also think it will serve as a challenge to USAHIL and AAU to do a better job. If a lot of different people are putting more energy then ever before into getting new players into the sport, then it’s obviously a good thing.

Call me directly if you want to have a more productive chat rather than writing an anonymous pessimistic email with nothing to back it up outside of bad memories of undelivered promises from the past by people that aren’t involved in RHA. Or, feel free to debate with me. Let’s start with a name and credentials please?

[rhhof]

Its right there from the source folks - It doesnt get any better!!

I, for one, am glad to hear that the RIGHT people are not only behind it, but are going to follow through - I agree 100% with Daryn...I don't side with one or the other and both have a lot of good things involved I see nothing going on as far as officiating or coaching...Neither program is any further along from where it was what 6-7 years ago - is there anywhere to go, incentives, anything?

There is no coaching certification - Dad is behind the bench or someone donating there time...and though its not their fault, for most - they dont really know all about the game and Im sure they wouldnt mind being educated, but there are other things they can be held responsible for and thats what they need to know -- The incentives here are qualify and get to Finals or Nationals...maybe we can come together and create national programs that give coaches an incentive to attend

There really isnt any referee certification either - Apply...do an open book test...Congrats, your a ref!!! We need to offer classes or programs to train and then evaluate our officials and as they move from the local leagues to the tourneys, to NARCh Finals, State Wars or TORHS nationals or any major event....

I have petitioned the people to be and offered my time to these organizations as well -- I was a part of USAIL's player development program as a coach and I have been a long standing official with most tourney organizations for up to 7-8 years now and have had the priviledge to work every major event in North America.

I will still give back and work with this new alliance to further our sport and provide the knowledge and guidence all I can -- I am all about what this organization brings to the table

My best to RHA as it embarks in its quest to fulfill our sport with everything it needs and help it grow all around!!!!!!!!!!!

[Doug Jones]

Doug, your the best! I just love the way you spin things bro! Keep up the good work.

Convinced me, I'm signing my rink up right now!

Billy Bob

Look forward to seeing you join the RHA team. Welcome, Billy Bob

[Doug Jones]

Its right there from the source folks - It doesnt get any better!!

I, for one, am glad to hear that the RIGHT people are not only behind it, but are going to follow through - I agree 100% with Daryn...I don't side with one or the other and both have a lot of good things involved I see nothing going on as far as officiating or coaching...Neither program is any further along from where it was what 6-7 years ago - is there anywhere to go, incentives, anything?

There is no coaching certification - Dad is behind the bench or someone donating there time...and though its not their fault, for most - they dont really know all about the game and Im sure they wouldnt mind being educated, but there are other things they can be held responsible for and thats what they need to know -- The incentives here are qualify and get to Finals or Nationals...maybe we can come together and create national programs that give coaches an incentive to attend

There really isnt any referee certification either - Apply...do an open book test...Congrats, your a ref!!! We need to offer classes or programs to train and then evaluate our officials and as they move from the local leagues to the tourneys, to NARCh Finals, State Wars or TORHS nationals or any major event....

I have petitioned the people to be and offered my time to these organizations as well -- I was a part of USAIL's player development program as a coach and I have been a long standing official with most tourney organizations for up to 7-8 years now and have had the priviledge to work every major event in North America.

I will still give back and work with this new alliance to further our sport and provide the knowledge and guidence all I can -- I am all about what this organization brings to the table

My best to RHA as it embarks in its quest to fulfill our sport with everything it needs and help it grow all around!!!!!!!!!!!

Well put, Adam....I think it's tremendous that Peter Dale is a part of the RHA... his clinics are excellent and his teaching skills superb. He definitely can help the grassroots levels and help those working with the new players to excel!

[Daryn G - NARCh]

Thomas,

I did not dig hard to find your identity and made the assumption that you were anonymous, like so many people on this message board are. I guess sorry for that. At the same time you’re very quick to make assumptions about a group of people uniting for the first time ever who have been successful in this sport in their own businesses, despite it’s fragmented landscape.

Let’s not get off topic and as you suggest, “Let’s be perfectly honest.” I take a little offense to your assumptions about putting money in our pockets, as this is the exact opposite of what we’re doing. Not a huge deal, I’m over it.

In an effort to keep a productive post (which is rare on here) let me ask you to tell me 3 things that you think are important to the sport? Since you’ve been involved heavily with the NCRHA then you should have a good understanding of the issues, especially in your local market.

Doug and Billybob, get a room! Stay off this thread and have a petty argument somewhere else unless you have something truly productive to add.

Superstar and Gojoin, I suggest emailing [email protected] or feel free to add some of the positive things you have in mind to help the sport.

The only thing I ask is to not lump the failures of the past by others into what we’re trying to accomplish. It’s like assuming your next girlfriend will have the same baggage as your last girlfriend….and this one is a lot hotter, smarter, and wants to be with you.

[Doug Jones]

Thomas,

I did not dig hard to find your identity and made the assumption that you were anonymous, like so many people on this message board are. I guess sorry for that. At the same time you’re very quick to make assumptions about a group of people uniting for the first time ever who have been successful in this sport in their own businesses, despite it’s fragmented landscape.

Let’s not get off topic and as you suggest, “Let’s be perfectly honest.” I take a little offense to your assumptions about putting money in our pockets, as this is the exact opposite of what we’re doing. Not a huge deal, I’m over it.

In an effort to keep a productive post (which is rare on here) let me ask you to tell me 3 things that you think are important to the sport? Since you’ve been involved heavily with the NCRHA then you should have a good understanding of the issues, especially in your local market.

Doug and Billybob, get a room! Stay off this thread and have a petty argument somewhere else unless you have something truly productive to add.

Superstar and Gojoin, I suggest emailing [email protected] or feel free to add some of the positive things you have in mind to help the sport.

The only thing I ask is to not lump the failures of the past by others into what we’re trying to accomplish. It’s like assuming your next girlfriend will have the same baggage as your last girlfriend….and this one is a lot hotter, smarter, and wants to be with you.

I was sincere, when I posted I would work with him. I will work with anyone to help build the sport and grow the numbers. We all need to work together.

[StateWarsDir]

I can only speak for my own involvement with the RHA, but I will say that I am very excited to be a part of this great group. I think it is HUGE for the sport to have many different groups and many of the leaders of our sport working together for one common goal..TO GROW THE SPORT OF ROLLER HOCKEY.

I have know Daryn (NARCh), Ronnie/Greg (Torhs), Peter (USA Clinics), and the Yoders (PIHA) since the early 90's... we were all involved in the sport then and the fact that we are still heavily involved now, says a lot about this group to me. Then there are other supporters such as Nanette (NAYRHL) and Rob (NCRHA) who I have been working with for many years now and have a lot of respect for their passion and dedication. Bottom line is right off the bat we have a tight group of experienced people who want to see this sport grow.

The formation of the RHA isn't a knock on any other group out there, it's just that all of us agree that more needs to be done to improve this sport. You can call it an "if you want something done right do it yourself" mentality if you want. I feel right off the bat for 3 of the major National tournaments to be working together, to communicate on scheduling to avoid conflicts, to be helping each other out in different regions, to be supportive of each others success, and to offer one membership/insurance for all of our customers, it's a great thing.

As Daryn mentioned, personally I am not planning on making any money from RHA, our goal is to see RHA be successful in bringing many new players into the sport. If that happens then all of us who have business' in this sport will thrive. And I also hope that AAU and USAHIL are still successful in their grass roots efforts, the more working towards these common goals the better.

Happy New Year!

Tim McManus

[Daryn G - NARCh]

Thomas,

I will read your document later, but I just wanted to hit you with a quick response to some of these things that you mention.

I’m not sure if you realize this but this sport goes through age cycles. This sport is every bit as cool right now to a 10 yr old as it was to you when you were young, actually cooler. We all remember things from our past and often refer to them as being better than the current state. When I started in 91’ National Championships were on a wooden floor in a dark roller rink and we played games through the night so it didn’t interrupt sessions. We didn’t play on quads, although some still did. Refs were on shoes! I’d say we’ve come along way.

I will agree with you that we’ve lost the Buzz. In my opinion it also has a lot to do with the fact that inline skating was basically a fad of the 90’s. Everyone was doing it everywhere. Now it’s a rarity and basically not cool. So how do we get that buzz back? Who’s working on that?

To touch on your stability issue, our group has already approached both USARS and USAHIL in an attempt to make one Team USA. Since the best players in the sport play in our events it makes sense. We can also assist in putting together an unbiased committee to pick the team. Unfortunately it did not come together this year, but both entities were willing to listen and agreed it made sense.

Regarding qualified people, who’s to judge who’s qualified and who’s not? If people are in this sport and truly care about it, rather than snub them and say they’re a joke and not qualified, doesn’t it make more sense to try to help them legitimize what they’re doing and become qualified? There aren’t people waiting in the wings for great jobs in this industry that came from Roller Hockey University. If you are willing to learn through experience, love the sport, and have a lick of intelligence and drive, that’s enough for me.

You’re stuck in a market where the rinks battle. You probably play men’s league where rosters aren’t required, jerseys don’t match, and referees aren’t qualified.

So now that we’ve got your complaining out of the way, let’s hear some solutions. If all of your girlfriends are ex’s and they all feel the same, maybe the problem isn’t the girlfriends.

[StateWarsDir]

Thomas

This is why I don't like message boards because of all of the negativity that is spewed out to everyone. There is a reason why 95% of our customers don't know about or go on these types of sites and unfortunately the reason why we don't like to promote message boards...because nothing can ever be left alone or talked about in a positive way. But because you called me out or in this case State Wars, I will reply to you.

State Wars is a business. I work my butt off to make it successful. I probably put in twice as many hours per week year round then many do in their jobs and at t he same time support a family. No one is told one thing and given another in our program, no one is tricked into paying for something they didn't want. The majority of players and families who come to our event, fall in love with the program and look at it as a positive in their lives. You mention the costs of attending a tryout and then for making your team, of course their are costs involved. Do you think the rinks give us free rink time to rent the floor for a tryout? Do you think the airlines give us comp airline tickets to fly staff out to every single tryout? Do you think the rental car companies and hotels give us free rooms during our tryouts? Do you think the jersey manufacturers and pants suppliers give us uniforms for free? Do you think the 3 Mateflex floors that need to be brought in to each arena to cover the ice are not costly? I can go on and on. The bottom line is you have NO idea of the kind of costs we deal with when running an event of this magnitude. And I resent the fact that you comment on something that in my memory you have never attended.

I do remember years ago, you wrote a bunch of negative emails about how the Missouri tryouts wouldn't be fair and how the entire team picked would be Lindenwood kids. I assured you of the professionalism of our tryout process, you attended and if memory serves me correctly you were chosen as one of the Team Missouri goalies. Then after going through all of that and after my staff "cutting" other goalies who truly wanted to play, you told us that you couldn't afford it and decided not to play. That to me was unprofessional. In 4 years of state tryouts, that has happened less than 10 times.

You work for a proshop company I believe correct? I am sure if I want to go in their and buy a stick they are going to charge me. That is why its called a business. So do me a favor if you want to be negative your entire life and just talk negative about the sport go for it if it makes you feel better. Or instead why don't you do what the rest of us in RHA have done, we have dedicated our lives to trying to make it better. Profit or non profit it doesn't matter, the bottom line is quality. I know I run a quality event and one that has grown every single year, especially with the youngest of players. So lets leave my business out of your tirades in the future as I have done nothing in my life but try to make our sport better and better!

Wow what a way to start the new year...

[zipyaj]

Dear RHA Founders,
Welcome and thank you for your spirit on behalf of the sport.

Based on my observations of your website, comments wthin this forum and due diligence, I am filled with questions and doubts. If you're interested, I will make my comments available to you offline and privately so as not to take up valuable space in this forum to express same.

Regards,

[GoJoin]

On a slightly more positive note, I sent you guys an e-mail. Let me know what you think.


- Jay Stipetic

[AZHockeyGuy]

Wow! This thread is hot! I have a proposal for all those involved in the RHA on top of the overall proposals.

When "non-profit" associations are formed by "for-profits" it always puts a crawdad in some folks jockeys because it is assumed that they just want to make more money. That is the root motivation here as the members benefit monetarily from any new members they drum up but it is ethically sound because it will roll over to the entire industry.

With that said, if all the folks at the RHA truly to intend to do what they say (unite the sport, increase player base, bring balance to the force, etc.) then total transparency would be no problem. Transparency with financials, association metrics, and sport analysis. Maybe with this commitment (heck you have to turn financials to the irs anyway) others will be a little more accepting knowing that you care to share yourselves with others not associated. Is that a possibility? Because, honestly, I definitely can see where people would be untrusting with this alliance.

PS lets keep the tone down. We don't want to ruin this thread folks, all girlfriend jokes aside.

[StateWarsDir]

AZhockey guy

You are 100% accurate, heck I will admit that I have laughed at many groups who call themselves "non profit". I actually have been told then many of the richest men in the world run "non profit" organizations. From what I have been told by my lawyer, any non profit group must "open its books" to the public. Another reason for the start for RHA is that many of were never satisfied where membership dollars were going in the past. Personally I am all for the books being open in this regard, I would hope you would ask the same of other larger organizations as well as we should all know where our membership dollars are going.

Many of you do not know this but for the past 3 months or so, the current members of RHA have had a weekly conference call to discuss the sport and how we can improve it. This call has lasted over an hour each time and actually seems to get longer each week. Something so simple like this weekly call has never been done before. I think already we have done more communicating in the last few months than has EVER been done by different parties in our sport. If you look on the RHA website, we want to open this weekly conference call up to others, especially rink owners and hockey directors and give them the chance to get some feedback on how they can run better programs.

Also I constantly hear how our sport is dying and how it isn't big like it was in the mid 90's. You know what things go through fads and highs and lows. In the mid 90's every kid wanted to put his skates on and play hockey, then years later every kid wanted to be Tony Hawk and do "X Games" type stuff. Things change. But I believe that as the NHL seems to get bigger and better our sport will improve as well. Granted I am a "glass is half full" kid of guy. Think about this though:

In the "booming years" our sport had the following:
NARCh Nationals
AIRHS Nationals
RHI
These were three of the biggest things going on in the National scene.

Today we still have NARCh, except now the event is HUGE. In 1994 NARCh had 24 teams I believe, or somewhere around that playing. Last summer they had over 400. AIRHS is no longer in existence but you have TORHS and Junior Olympics being played each summer, each have more than double the amount of teams playing that AIRHS had back then. State Wars is a new event which has grown each and every year and has gotten many new states and players involved on the National scene.

We no longer have RHI, but we have PIHA and AIHL. Now granted we'd all love to see better players playing in big arenas but again I look at the positive sides here. Back when RHI was in existence, I know I worked for one of the teams, the majority of players were pro ice guys who wanted to make a few extra bucks over the summer. Most could care less about the sport of roller hockey. They put their skates on for the summer and threw them out when it was over. But with PIHA and AIHL you have real roller hockey guys playing the sport. Guys who live and breathe it. Who cares if they get paid big bucks or they pay a few hundred bucks to play. The bottom line is they are true roller hockey players and the rinks they play at and support are the "small local" rinks who need the support.

Finally, we have college hockey and high school hockey, two things that were virtually non existent back in the mid 90s. And two very important cogs on the wheel of our sport (no pun intended).

The final issue is rinks. Yes many rinks have closed over the years, something none of us want to see. But this is two fold, yes some of it has to do with the sport not growing like we had hoped. But also a big part of the reason is that way too many rinks popped up back then, hoping to make it big on "the next best sport". Realistically our sport didn't need ALL of these rinks, so some went under and the stronger have survived. RHA hopes to help those rinks that are still around get stronger and I feel that as a group we can do it.

Sorry for the rant AZhockey, but getting back to your original thoughts I am all for it. Instead of everyone looking to dissect RHA and criticize before it even begins, how about contacting us and finding out how you can help us help the sport. If you truly care about the sport and I think everyone that posts on here does, then that's where your energy should be!

Tim McManus (I am now stepping off of my soap box)

[AZHockeyGuy]

Tim,

Well said and I understand all that you are saying. I was thinking that quarterly reports by the rha would be good for you to calm the waters a bit. I have worked in non-profits more than I care to admit, but this is one of the things that could really help you. By being a "non-profit" organization you are inherently a community group. Best to include the community in every way that you can to effect the most change.

Good luck!

Nick Koressel

[topshelf]

Old Timer is right on!

There are many people out here in the Roller Hockey community that will have the same impressions of this new venture including me. Most will attempt to remain anonymous because of the attacks they will receive from the Daryn Goodwin's, and Doug Jones of the sport. I know this to be true because every time I have posted an alternative opinion to the mighty NARCH, PIHA or USA Hockey I have been attacked by them. I have even gotten threatening private messages from them. If anyone out there doesn't think that this is another money making venture for all that are involved, then you are very naive.

The main problem as I see it, is that there are too many that say they are just running a business. Well gentleman the greed of some of your businesses are a big part of what is ruining this great sport of Roller Hockey.

Support your local rinks because without them we would not even be having this debate. The rink owners are the true investors of this sport. All the companies involved with the RHA can't exist without them.

Bring on the Attacks, It helps everyone else out there see your true colors!

Anonymous Roller Hockey parent since 1992.

[JLambertUMSL]

I enjoy inline hockey, but the entire AAU/USAHIL debate makes me yawn and turn the page. Always has. I really don't care. So I'm not even going to offer an opinion on it, because I don't even care to learn the ins and outs of it.

I got into the sport because it was a chance to guide a college sports team, and my view of inline hockey soured real fast when I saw the way high school players played for schools they didn't actually attend, and realized I was the only one who really gave a damn (other than some confused parents)....and then saw a team win a state high school championship using several players who didn't even attend the school (that's just one example...I have to give credit to Ian Mackie for ending this practice).

Roller hockey people are entrenched in the mentality of throwing teams together, free of restrictions. (That's why I've gravitated toward State Wars as opposed to the other summer tournaments. To someone who grew up with football, baseball, basketball, and ice hockey, it makes a lot more sense to represent a state rather than an equipment manufacturer.)

Parents of younger kids, who aren't familiar with inline hockey, ask "when's the season start?" Well....what's the answer? There is no season really. That's one issue. We have tryouts in December or January, practice for a while, play in a house league, play in a few weekend tournaments before the big trip in the summer. We don't have a league where all the youth teams play against each other (at least in St. Louis we don't).

Maybe if there were leagues like NAYRHL everywhere (or if NAYRHL expanded across the country), more parents would take the leap into inline hockey. But what I'm seeing now is a mass exodus of 8-12 year old kids into ice hockey because there's structure and it makes sense. Tryouts in September, regular season until late March, and it's over.

In inline, we've got 8U teams playing in 12U house leagues because there's nowhere else to play games. That's no good. For example, last night my 7-year-old cousin played in a 12U house league with his 8U team. He had a goal and two assists -- the top scorer in the game -- but came off the floor in tears, not because his team lost 5-4, but because on his way to try to score the game-tying goal in the last few seconds, he got hooked and pinned by a 130-pound twelve year old (mind you, he never lays on the floor hurt and doesn't whine about minor bumps and bruises...but nevertheless, that'll only happen two, maybe three more times before his parents yank him from inline hockey and put him into ice, where he can play a consistent schedule against kids that don't outweigh him by 75 pounds...and inline hockey loses another youngster who loves to play the sport).

The root problem is just the mentality. Everyone in charge everywhere is a roller hockey person who's used to the way roller hockey is currently structured, where there's not a "regular season," but a couple ragtag house leagues and then tournaments. That's fine I guess, but it's not a way to sell the sport to parents who can (and do) just have their kids play a more structured (and much cheaper) sport like soccer instead of diving into the confusing and counterintuitive world of youth inline hockey.

Bring NAYRHL nationwide. That sounds like a good start.

[SWAMPDONKEYS29]

Both James and Old Timer bring up some good points when referring to overall structure. Good points indeed!

[Daryn G - NARCh]

Topshelf,

Not sure what you’re referring to as I’ve never private messaged anyone. In fact, not even sure I know how to do it right. If we have never not seen eye to eye it must have been you talking negatively about NARCh, which I put my heart and soul into.

I even agree with your comment about local rinks. They are the key to all of this. We can have the best ideas in the world, but without their cooperation to get new players in the sport, it’s useless. For example, on of our goal is to create marketing tools to help rink owners reach out to new kids. If rink owners don’t help with the legwork and put in the effort on their end, it will not be successful. Obviously it’s in all of our best interest, which is why we are trying .

Can you tell me, since you’ve been in this sport so long, what is the highlight of your child’s roller hockey career? For a majority of people, it’s playing in or winning that special event, which is what many of us on the tournament side provide.

The irony in a few of these replies that I’ve read is that RHA is expected to fully disclose where membership money will be spent, which we are willing to do. Yet at the same time, we’ve all been contributing to either AAU or USAHIL financially for years and we have no idea how the money is being spent. All I’ve ever expected is to see positive things happening for the sport for what we pay for those memberships. I think the degree of success of how that money has been spent is up for debate, but we’ll all agree that there needs to be more done for the sport.

Regarding comments posted by James, you’ve got very valid points. Taking my NARCh hat off I’ve worked with some 6-8 yr olds very recently that have to play up in house league and don’t even have viable options right now for playing on a tournament team, at least until the ice season ends. The only answer that I have to that is that we need to put in more effort to get more kids into the sport, so there’s enough for the younger players to make their own teams. Talk is cheap, we need action.

[AZHockeyGuy]

No one ever said that we didn't want transparency from all "non-profit" entities. But since you are starting a new organization maybe you could do it the right way?

[billybob]

How does this unite the sport? All they have done here is left USAHIL. Bring the real big three (USARS, AAU & USAHIL) in this sport together and then you have made a move in the right direction to unite the sport.

Everyone in RHA was members of USAHIL and I see no one from the other side on board with any of this.

Don't be fooled by any of this propaganda bs, they want control of the sport and they are willing to do whatever it takes to get it, you think you pay a lot now to participate wait until they get the control that USA Hockey has on ice then you will be sick.

Daryn & Tim you really want to unite the sport then sit down with USARS, AAU and USAHIL and get it done, they are the legit sanctioning bodies and have been for years. All this does is muddy the waters even more with yet another membership card, yea you really care.

[Daryn G - NARCh]

Billybob,

For your info, we tried. We met with USARS and have been in constant contact with USAHIL in an effort to bring it all together. Each party cares about different things. With USARS the priority is funding the World Team. With USAHIL it’s even more confusing. At the end of the day what WE want to see is the sport grow and things in the sport progress. Nobody in either of those groups has as much at stake as the members of RHA, so we’ll do it ourselves. We’ll probably also continue to talk to both groups in an effort to work together as well.

I’ve had a year full of this message board in the last 12 hours and have more productive things to do then continue to justify things to people that are negative, naïve, and only enjoy a good argument. I’ll go out and make a difference and you great people continue to bash and carry on your wonderful conversations. Enjoy your Saturday and we hope to see you at Winternationals!

[Dean Portman]

BillyBob,

How does this unite the sport? All they have done here is left USAHIL. Bring the real big three (USARS, AAU & USAHIL) in this sport together and then you have made a move in the right direction to unite the sport.

Everyone in RHA was members of USAHIL and I see no one from the other side on board with any of this.

Don't be fooled by any of this propaganda bs, they want control of the sport and they are willing to do whatever it takes to get it, you think you pay a lot now to participate wait until they get the control that USA Hockey has on ice then you will be sick.

Daryn & Tim you really want to unite the sport then sit down with USARS, AAU and USAHIL and get it done, they are the legit sanctioning bodies and have been for years. All this does is muddy the waters even more with yet another membership card, yea you really care.

Wow. How do you come off calling them the real big three? That seems a little biased. Is this Keith Noll? It unites the sport by 8 of the 11-13 major organizations in North American roller hockey coming together to do whats best for the sport. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only other tournaments/leagues missing is AAU/USARS, AIHL, 2Hot4Ice, and USAHIL. I think Narch had more teams last summer than those 4 did combined. So I definitely wouldn't classify any of those part of "The Big Three."

If AAU/USARS and USAHockeyInline get on board, great. But in the past, the bickering and "unresolvable" problems between the two have stood in the way of a true governing body. A group of people who have made this sport their livelyhood have decided to take the reins. I wouldn't have it any other way. The major players of the RHA have way too much of their lives invested in the sport to let a plan like this do anything but good for roller hockey. Cheers to that!

Old Timer,

Stability- What do you think the RHA is set to accomplish?

I have never seen you at anything aside from a State Wars tryout and college tournaments. Didn't you tryout for PIHA and then quit that too? So going on your track record of NCRHA games and games at Matteson, who is unqualified for their position in the Roller Hockey world? Daryn? Don't make me laugh. Tim McManus? You've got to be kidding. Greg Gawrys or Ron Beilsten? They are responsible for roller hockey in St. Louis. Rob Coggin? Peter Dale? Charlie or CJ Yoder? Seriously. Who is unqualified? As for the leagues and rinks in STL.. Ian Mackie, Tom Fussner and Perry Turnbull? JP Beilsten? Rob Ferrara? Where did you come up with unqualified people running rinks/orgs/leagues/teams? Once the rinks sign on to the RHA, I would imagine that all coaches will have to attend a seminar of some sort to get certification, but we'll touch on that later.

In other areas of the country, I'm sure your statement is true. When it pertains to the RHA and the St. Louis Roller Hockey Community (which is the majority of the inline hockey you have experienced), I think that you're completely wrong. I know for a fact that no one involved in the RHA is looking to do anything but good for the sport of roller hockey.

[ianmackie]

Hey Thomas,

Let's see where this goes and what they can accomplish before we totally bash it. I talk with these guys; along with Jeremy Kennedy and Keith Noll frequently and I still believe the goal is total unity within roller hockey. It couldn't happen this year because of the timing, but all three will talk again with the same goals in mind. A lot of what you are saying is true, along with a lot of the comments by everyone, but a lot are also jumping to conclusions. Let's see how they go about their business and what changes are made.

Until then, let's do lunch and talk about the St. Louis roller hockey scene. I am always looking for ideas and help.

Ian

[Hoffer]

To me personally this sounds like a great idea and I cannot wait to see what this alliance can do for hockey! With the people that are on board and the skills that they bring to the table I believe that amazing things can be done in the sport. All the people heading up this alliance have been in roller hockey for the long haul and know what to do. I have gotten to play State War’s which had an amazing atmosphere and was very competitive, and just recently was amazed at TORHS winter nationals (New York) not only were games on time but they were early! All these people know what they are doing tournament wise! League wise I have been privileged to play in piha and have enjoyed it every second. Plus with Nanette Houser and NAYRHL on board probably the best youth league that I have played in since the inaugural season plus with the help of Peter Dale I think the grass roots program can really take off and expand the sports numbers. With all these people working together how far our sport can expand is limitless.

[ianmackie]

Hey, Ian!

My concern with not jumping on this quickly is because of the speed they've obviously put this together. Before we go jumping to making people pay $30 to be a part of this organization, I'd like to know tangible benefits and plans of this organization. They've already done quite a bit behind people's backs (not meaning that as malicious), and only recently released it. Now that it's released, I think we need to question it.

If I am jumping to conclusions, I apologize. I'm just looking for a satisfactory response instead of the same defensiveness we've encountered, well, for 15 years. I know you know what I mean.

I understand. I think the answers will come in time. I am still up for the lunch too.

[Dean Portman]

I don't see how adding yet another organization to the bunch accomplishes stability. I truly don't. I only see this backfiring and complicating the industry even more.

Also, yes, I do believe some of the people you referenced above are completely unqualified to be in their positions. But my perspective, since I did used to be more on a national scale, certainly does contain more people than just here in St. Louis.

(Also, yes, I did quit PIHA. I was drafted on to the one team I refused to play for, and I had made that known. I won't explain the reason I refused to play on the team; that's old blood that doesn't need to come back up. A couple other issues came to light during tryouts, too [for instance, players who were already chosen on teams before the tryouts and draft], and I thought it was pretty audacious to ask people to pay practice money when you're playing on a rink's team and practicing at that rink so the rink owner and the other owners can make money at the gates. I thought that was quite appalling.)

Name one thing that USAHIL or AAU/USARS have done in the past 8 years that was a serious step to unite all of the major bodies and create one USA Hockey (like ice hockey has). They really took a step towards unity when they scheduled their national tournament during another tournament series's block (AAU/USARS).


Daryn? Don't make me laugh. Tim McManus? You've got to be kidding. Greg Gawrys or Ron Beilsten? They are responsible for roller hockey in St. Louis. Rob Coggin? Peter Dale? Charlie or CJ Yoder? Seriously. Who is unqualified? As for the leagues and rinks in STL.. Ian Mackie, Tom Fussner and Perry Turnbull? JP Beilsten? Rob Ferrara?

Which one(s) is/are unqualified? Please say so that I can list their qualifications. Just because you have had a bad experience with PIHA and the St. Louis Cobras doesn't mean that the people that are involved with all of the other rinks aren't qualified to do their jobs. Seriously, Midwest and All American each have more teams than Matteson does. Omni has been revamped and they are getting more teams. For being unqualified, the people running those 3 rinks sure are doing something right.

[StateWarsDir]

Guys

I appreciate the enthusiasm that everyone has for the sport, whether your comments have been in full support of what we do or negative/questioning of RHA's motives. All I can say is give us a chance and see what we do before you criticize us or even before you pat us on the backs.

Bottom line is this, for years everyone has been very critical of the sport and I think we ALL can agree that the sport has not been growing in all of the areas we want it to. No matter what organization you have supported in the past I think we all have felt that more should be done. So that being said, all of us that have united to form the RHA have collectively said, "we feel more needs to be done to improve our sport, to get more players into this great game, to help rinks prosper, to unify the sport, etc..." Again not knocking anyone else, but we want more done and who better to do it then the ones who do have a vested interest in the sport.

Like Daryn and Ian have mentioned, RHA has had numerous talks with USARS and USAHIL in hopes of uniting the sport with all involved. We still hope that will happen in the future. But for now RHA will take the bull by the horns and try to steer this sport in a better direction. I will also tell you that every single dollar raised by RHA membership will go towards efforts to grow the sport of roller hockey as a whole, not any of our individual business'. You don't have to believe that statement but it is the truth and like I mentioned in an earlier post I would have no problem allowing anyone to see where their membership dollars are going, once the RHA is off an running. That is a promise very few would dare to make.

I hope everyone can give us a chance to accomplish our goals and to help grow the sport of roller hockey. If anyone has any specific questions about what we intend to do or how we intend to do it, just give us a call or drop us an email and we will be happy to answer you in the best way we know how.

Tim McManus

[ACCCT2]

Hmmm...

Yeah, but just exactly 'who' anoints or appoints the 'certifiers'...??? Reviewing RHA's "mission statement" (?), it should be incredibly obvious to anyone even remotely aware of basic business/trade law that letting RHA's exclusively self-anointed and self-appointed (and self-serving?) RHA-only-types 'reign' over the ("certified"?) growth and allegedly "better direction" of the sport absolutely won't fly -- and for far more than merely practical or even logistical reasons. Like, let's just start with the serious financial accountability/conflict-of-interest/restriction-of-trade issues that clearly would have to be considered in almost every decision (and "certification"?) made by RHA.

How soon does anyone at the RHA think that they could realistically expect a lawsuit after denying (or NOT "certifying"?) a person, company or event that might otherwise commercially compete with RHA events...??? Get real. Personally, I wouldn't allow anyone with any kind of "for-profit/commercial" interests decide who will or won't be "certified" and/or allowed to play...or coach...or officiate...or organize...well, ANYTHING outside of their own events, coaches and clinics -- especially such a self-servingly "self-anointed" inline 'cabal' of "for-profit/commercial" companies and individuals with such overtly obvious "for-profit/commercial" interests as that of which the RHA consists -- there's clearly WAY TOO MUCH that could (and honestly, probably will) go awry in terms of those critical "accountability/conflict-of-interest/restriction-of-trade" issues.

In short, HOWEVER sincerely well-meaning and/or well-intentioned, these guys see the "pie" shrinking and want all of us paying-players to blithely and blindly aquiesce to letting them decide (and "certify"?) just exactly 'who' will be allowed to organize, officiate and/or play any kind of serious organized leagues and/or competitions, as well as 'how much' each player, coach or game official will eventually be expected to pay for giving them (the RHA) that self-serving and self-anointed right to do so. In short, they want "NGB" status without the transparant legal 'controls' that are typically expected to be in place in order to ensure "NGB members" of at least the relative appearance of propriety, integrity and fairness, as well as equal access and enforcement under those "controls". Are there really those of you out there REALLY THAT daft that you would actually buy into this latest travesty of an alleged "save-the-sport/messianic-mission-statement"...???

As a "for-profit/commercial" businessman myself, I would NEVER willingly allow ANYONE with such self-servingly obvious "for-profit/commercial" and competing interests to ever "certify" my company, officials, coaches, players, gear and/or events -- let alone, let them determine what size "slice" of the "pie" I'm entitled to under their "certification". What kind of totally crazy "Kool-Aid" addicts do these RHA "saviors" really think that we all are anyway...???

Does the term "benevolent dictatorship" come to anyone else's mind in digesting some of the RHA's lines of almost "too good to be true" and incredibly altruistic-sounding propaganda -- especially in terms of what future RHA "certification" and "controls" might REALLY be like...???

Overall: NOT impressed. Especially after reading an incredibly unprofessional, badly written and ultimately pointless "mission statement" and website (as in NO meaningful or significant "points" made or "better direction" or "vision" clearly stated).

[Superstar9]

Jeeez......give the RHA at least 5 minutes of existence and a chance to make some things happen. I mean people are railing their efforts and they have barely gotten off the ground.

Even if they end up making money on it, that doesn't make it a bad program. Look at Microsoft the past 20 years, they have made zillions of dollars yes but, the PC and Windows revolutionized the world. Making money doesn't equal evil and non-productive. The sport needs change, that is for sure. Everyone bitches and whines non-stop that the sport is headed down the tubes yet anytime anyone tries to create anything to make ANY change...they get railed. If you aren't going to be part of the solution, don't bitch about the problems.

I think this sort of program with all the big guns united, is exactly what the sport needs. We need a group with serious dollars and industry pull to get the next generation into this sport. We gotta get to the schools, we gotta get the sport on tv, that's how the sport is going to gain any interest. I think a group like this working on the sports visibility is the only way it's going to happen.

I've decided that I'm taking my rink and programs in this direction. I can't see a group that's collectively done so much for the sport intentionally hurting it, besides, their very own jobs/companies outside of RHA are depending on it to work, would they jeopardize NARCh, PIHA, NCRHA, TORHS, & State Wars? No, they want the sport to succeed as much as if not more than you do because it's not only their hobby and passion, it's their career too. Give em a shot guys.

[ACCCT2]

Y'know, being the "en vogue" thing to apparently profitably be lately, all this RHA "certification" and "better direction" stuff quite frankly (and almost scarily) reminds me of us as players once again being asked to aquiesce to blindly "bail-out" the very people responsible for the unbelievablely pathetic mess we're in -- just like in the Wall Street/Mortgage/Madoff "meltdown" fiascos, we're being told to "trust" the very people who we need more transparacy and accountability from (some whose collective and experienced "vision" and "better direction" have arguably helped bring us to this point, IMO) to somehow ("cash"?) "certify" and "save" us from ourselves.

I say let BOLD-FACED (and 'open') transparancy, competition and "markets" rule our "better direction" and "vision" in evolving and "saving" our sport -- self-servingly self-anointed, self-appointed and self-agrandizing "saviors" scare the legal-bejesus out of me...

[Hockeydevil29]

I agree with Chris give these guys a chance. My kids have played ice hockey and inline for years and I will be the first to tell you that USA Hockey is ALL about ice hockey. Just yesterday I got the USA Magazine in the mail, of course nothing about "the other sport". So would I rather give my $30 to the people who care most about roller hockey? You bet your ass I would. I could care less who profited from what, again at least we would be funding those that put on great events for our kids and promote the sport that we all love to play and watch our kids play.

As for Accct2, I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets dizzy from reading your posts. I don't know if I've ever read one post you've written that is positive. Do you or your kids play at Narch, State Wars, Torhs, PIHA or any of the groups involved? if yes then great pay your money and if no stay out of it!

[ACCCT2]

Give em a shot guys.

OK. Just not in any way a "controlling" shot.

[ianmackie]

OK. Just not in any way a "controlling" shot.

This was the first post I was actually able to read without a headache. Yay!

[CUDangled]

It cracks me up when people complain about a business owner making money, but that is another story. A "great product" requires an incredible amount of work. In exchange for enjoying/benefitting from your product, I have no problem rewarding you for your work. Anyway...


On the RHA issue...I think the whole idea would have been better received if they functioned simply as an "alliance" that worked to promote the sport. I believe the insurance portion is what is causing people to baulk at the idea. How would an organization/team/player/rink/tournament series/whatever that has a strong relationship with USAIL or AAU participate in this "growth"? And if they don't jump over and join RHA do they risk looking like that don't care about growing the sport? Not trying to argue, just asking questions. Also, a player who participates in a lot of tournaments now has to purchase another insurance (RHA, AAU, USAIL). How is this working to "unite" the sport? Isn't this actually dividing the sport again?

What about the insurance? I haven't seen any posts on here about the actual coverage. What are the policy limits? Deductibles? What does it cover? What doesn't it cover? Shouldn't we be asking these questions?

I am not trying to bad mouth this effort, so please do not take it the wrong way. Just simply asking questions that we are "discussing at the water cooler". Hopefully I will get some positive responses... I want nothing more than to see our sport grow. I just like to have all the facts before I form an opinion. I (the one without the knowledge) is simply trying to get answers from those with the information.

Thanks for the POSITIVE responses.

[Berry_Bramble]

It is amazing. The fact that we can all agree that this sport needs structure and direction and then when a bunch of groups get together and want to provide it, people stand up and say ‘no, not you’. Ok then, well who. From AAU or USAHIL? , I think they have had more then there fare share of time to do something.

They have both had more than enough time to get something done. Everyone has paid their USAHIL or AAU fee’s and what have we got other than insurance from them? Anything? A lousy newsletter via email once a month or once a year would be nice with what is going on with the sport. It is possible they do send them and I just don’t get them. This is something NARCh and State Wars already do for their programs.

I have no problem giving 30 bucks to the RHA knowing I will get something out of it other than insurance. What that will be I do not know, but two of the organizations that I have dealt with as a coach have yet to fail to deliver. An email newsletter would be good enough for me. Anything that shows they care about the sport, which these two organizations have already proven.

The easiest question to ask is what do I get for my 30 bucks right now? Well, wait and find out and if you don’t like what you get then don’t pay it and or support it. But don’t knock it right off the bat. It is the first sign of any real unification…..ever?

[billybob]

USAHIL has tried for years to host coaches/referee certification classes, but not many wanted to attend. How can you hold any organiztion responsible for this mess? Inline hockey has been like the wild, wild west for years, pretty much since a guy that worked for USARS decided to start his own tournamnet series and created this mess for USARS and the sport. USAHIL, AAU & USARS can not force people to attend certification class, cuz if they did people would go else where to participate.

The sport is a mess because it is being driven by event operators and not by a governing body, like in ice. The event operators like any business man are looking out for their own good not that of players and coaches.

[billybob]

btw, RHA is so smart they should know better to use the terminology of "Coaches Certification" when it should be "Coaches Education", but how would you know that know unless you worked with a legit youth sports organiztion. It's legal jumbo.

[Ericnewell18]

Wow there seems to be a lot of discussion and opinions on something so new. I generallu don't have an opinion on much because even when I do it doesn't matter. But I would like to chime in on this one. Coming from a players perspective only....I have played both Tim and Daryns tournaments and can say with out a doubt that both have been nothing but professional and honest with me. And I would like to think I have made a friendship or two along the way. I don't know much about the other people involved but the two I speak of have my respect and I hope this all works out for them. Its very easy to bash people on the internet. My suggestion is to email them personally with any questions or concerns that you have. I am sure any of them would take the time to address your concerns on a more personal level. I just go out to skate, have fun, and make a ton of friends accross the country. This is the only sport where I can get a call from a team in california, fly out and play, and make 10 new friends instantly, all for the love of the game. Just my 2 cents.

Eric Newell
Team Indiana
Hartford Fireants (elite) #77

[TylerSollberger]

"Also, a player who participates in a lot of tournaments now has to purchase another insurance (RHA, AAU, USAIL). How is this working to "unite" the sport? Isn't this actually dividing the sport again"

From the way I understand it is, that all of these tournaments involved will just be using RHA insurance. If thats the case, it will save people money who play Torhs and Narch. (Just an example)

To the people out there that are ripping this alliance. Give it time. The right people are involved for the right reasons. If you think its just a money maker, how much money can that many companies make when it is all split up? Even if they do make money, at least we have faces to associate an organization to. It amazes me that the sport has so many organizations coming together for the first time ever, and the first thing that comes to mind is how much money are they making. Give me a break. Every single person involved in this alliance has been successful in our sport and its not just because they were looking to make a buck, its because they truly love the game. Give it time before you rip someone anonymously on a message board.

Tyler Sollberger

[CUDangled]

"Also, a player who participates in a lot of tournaments now has to purchase another insurance (RHA, AAU, USAIL). How is this working to "unite" the sport? Isn't this actually dividing the sport again"

From the way I understand it is, that all of these tournaments involved will just be using RHA insurance. If thats the case, it will save people money who play Torhs and Narch. (Just an example)


The point I was trying to make is that "everyone" isn't included in the alliance. If they were, it would make sense. Let's say your rink is USAIL so you have their insurance. Then you play Narch so now you have to buy RHA. Then over the summer you play JO's so now you have to buy AAU insurance.

[TylerSollberger]

The point I was trying to make is that "everyone" isn't included in the alliance. If they were, it would make sense. Let's say your rink is USAIL so you have their insurance. Then you play Narch so now you have to buy RHA. Then over the summer you play JO's so now you have to buy AAU insurance.

I get your point and not looking to start an arguement, but Daryn said on here that they tried to put something together with usail and aau, and I believe him. At least someone is making an attempt to put everything together.

[Hockeydevil29]

I still don't understand the negativity or hostility from some people. If you were to ask a rink why they use the insurance/membership that they chose to use at their place, here is what your response likely would be.

If it's USA Hockey Inline "not really sure. the magazine maybe?"

If it's AAU "well I get the insurance for $14 and I can charge my customer the same $30 that USA charges, so I can make $16 per player at my rink extra"

Should either of these reasons above be considered great reasons to use a membership? The mag is all ice hockey and the fact that a rink can make money from us isn't a noble reason either. No wonder why our sport is shrinking. At least RHA seems to have the right motives. Who knows they may wind up being a poor choice too, but Im willing to give them a shot. Like Tyler said, these guys are the best in the sport. Who better then them to lead the way. We all have been complaining about how bad the sport has been declining so I think these guys deserve a shot at improving it. Bottom line, USA Hockey Inline and AAU have done little to improve it

[Daryn G - NARCh]

Wow, has this discussion blown up. I guess it’s good, a lot of supporters, some skeptics, and few haters (mostly anonymous, go figure)

What’s funny is that people like Tim and myself could just chug along, focus on our main businesses, and be just fine. No need to rock the boat, right? Is USAHIL or AAU or anyone else going to do anything above and beyond from what they’ve been doing, especially if there’s nothing to push them? That’s the real question and you all know the answer.

USAHIL is important and offer support to some while AAU may mean the same to others. For the masses in this sport though, there’s just not enough being done in our sport to help it grow or develop. This is the whole reason for this, and there’s nobody that can say anything on any message board that can convince me otherwise.

At the end of the day many of you that don’t know us just don’t comprehend why we would take time to do something like this out of the goodness of our hearts. Get ripped on message boards, put time into things that don’t directly benefit our businesses, not receive a penny for it, etc. Sounds too good to be true, right? Well just because you wouldn’t do it if you were us doesn’t mean that our intensions are not true. Those of you that know us know that, and we appreciate all of your positive feedback and support.

Just this morning we had an RHA conference call to discuss standardized rules, how we are going to implement volunteers that want to be part of this, etc. It’s all very positive stuff and it’s never been done in our sport on such a broad scale.

Just want to touch on one more thing, coaching education programs or certification, whatever you want to call it. Part of the reason this has never been done in our sport is because nobody has really had a hammer. I can’t say, “We’re going to require it in NARCh” and then have everyone balk at it because I’m the only one doing it. Well I guess I could have, but it’s not worth the level of resistance. With all of the organizations on the same page, we truly can make it mandatory, another benefit of RHA. I feel very confident that there’s not a better group of people to put together a standardized program for this, and we will. It won’t be an internet test and it also won’t be an introduction to ice hockey. It will focus on coaches being role models and teaching the importance of team work and having fun, but will also cover coaching concepts and fundamentals. We will also have a continuation plan in place, as coaching is an evolving process.

I encourage all of you to take part in one of these and then compare it to what AAU or USAHIL puts out and then do an unbiased report on this little pepsi challenge. Hopefully it will also encourage the other organizations to step up and do more on this front. If they do, is the sport really worse off? If they don’t, is that also our fault?

For some of you that are die hard oppositions, we will always be wrong and never do enough. If we do a video for the sport, the video sucks. If we help a rink get 20 new kids, well they only got 20, big deal. You certainly aren’t the people that we’re doing this for and eventually you will go away. You may be replaced by a new set of negative people, so life goes on. While it’s sometimes annoying, I’m often entertained. At the end of the day the good guys that work hard and have true passion for this sport win.

In closing, if you end up paying 3 different memberships for USAHIL, RHA, and AAU, but you see true value in what RHA is accomplishing in the sport, will you then feel that the RHA was a bad idea? Are we really better off in this current stagnant state?

[DannyG]

I do not see on the web site info on signing up a rink/facility...

help?

[ACCCT2]

Needless to say, numerous and sundry, as well as VERY serious questions abound --




Just this morning we had an RHA conference call to discuss standardized rules, how we are going to implement volunteers that want to be part of this, etc. It’s all very positive stuff and it’s never been done in our sport on such a broad scale.

Hmmm...you get paid, but "implement volunteers" to build a "certification" program/quasi-NGB that financially benefits...hmmm: you.




Just want to touch on one more thing, coaching education programs or certification, whatever you want to call it. Part of the reason this has never been done in our sport is because nobody has really had a hammer. I can’t say, “We’re going to require it in NARCh” and then have everyone balk at it because I’m the only one doing it. Well I guess I could have, but it’s not worth the level of resistance. With all of the organizations on the same page, we truly can make it mandatory, another benefit of RHA. I feel very confident that there’s not a better group of people to put together a standardized program for this, and we will. It won’t be an internet test and it also won’t be an introduction to ice hockey. It will focus on coaches being role models and teaching the importance of team work and having fun, but will also cover coaching concepts and fundamentals. We will also have a continuation plan in place, as coaching is an evolving process.



Again, do you plan to charge (and how much?) for these so-called "coaching education programs or certification" that you're apparently thinking will be an essential first step in "saving" the game? And how many levels of paid-for "certification" will be "mandatory" for a coach to be fully "RHA-certified"?

You clearly state that you intend to "make it mandatory" ("certification"), but are you going to allow other (otherwise) qualified NON-RHA coaches, programs and businesses to enter RHA events or qualify for "certification" with the RHA even though they are RHA competitors? If NOT, then obviously, it seems rather financially self-serving and extremely questionable legally (if not just down-right unethical & unenforcable) that RHA businesses (NARCh, State Wars, TORHS, USA Clinics, etc.) would be the ONLY self-annointed, self-appointed "certifiers" of what's allegedly supposed to be an 'open' and 'inclusive' effort to "save" and "grow" the game.

Are you REALLY that pompous and self-agrandizingly arrogant enough that you think that ONLY RHA people/employess qualify as these allegedly all-important "certifiers" that you're intending to make "mandatory" in your game-saving and game-growing plan?

Will you allow other (otherwise) qualified NON-RHA coaches to "certify" a person, player or program?

Will you allow other NON-RHA insurance policies to be "in effect" at RHA tournaments, leagues, events and programs?

Will you allow RHA "member" players and teams to play at NON-RHA (and "NON-certified"?) tournaments, leagues, events or programs without restrictive or punitive sanction?

Will you allow RHA "member" players and teams to play and invoke their RHA insurance at NON-RHA (and "NON-certified"?) tournaments, leagues, events or programs?

Will you "certify" other (otherwise) worthy and worthwhile tournaments, leagues, programs, events and/or clinics as "certified" (or "sanctioned") and approved for RHA "members" to particpate in and/or compete in even though these NON-RHA tournaments, leagues, programs, events and/or clinics might be in DIRECT financial competition (and 'scheduling' conflict) with an RHA partner's own tournaments, leagues, programs, events and/or clinics?

Will you go to legally binding arbitration on any challenges to RHA denying "certification" or "sanction" to any coach, player, team or event that happens to feel denied rightful and fair due process in whatever "certification" or "sanction" approval they were seeking from RHA that was subsequently denied?

Get real and be COMPLETELY and TOTALLY honest with everyone -- if ANY of your answers to ANY of these questions is "NO", well then, you're definitely NOT doing this "out of the goodness of (your) hearts", now are you? As someone PM-ed me about this here on IHC: "Like the other guy said, a nonprofit run by a bunch of for-profits always smells fishy. This will be the same." -- VERY "fishy" and "fowl" if you ask me.

Call me a "die hard oppositionist", but with ONLY your collective "wolves-guarding-the-hockey-henhouse" assurances of how the RHA partners are doing this exclusively and non-commercially "out of the goodness of (their) hearts" -- well, it reeks of yet another "chicken ala ca-ching" money-grab disguised as a ("mandatory"?) benefit to "members" who apparently are going to be required to pony-up even more of their hard-earned cash for the alleged priviledge of paying-to-play in (ONLY?) RHA tournaments, leagues and/or clinices -- I'm sorry, but in my opinion THAT "will always be wrong and never do".

So, RHA: NICE idea, but TOTALLY BOGUS (and financially self-serving) plan of execution.

[Stampede#11]

I don't know if it is my X-Mas hangover still ... but ACCCCCCCT2 sort of makes a good point ... just, as usual, in a very mind bending and sensationalist manner.

I personally have heard 15 years of "for the good of the sport" (not in the USA but all over the sport of inline hockey) ... and as long as that attitude continues I don't think the sport will get anywhere and keep declining. As that means the sport is built on deception.

I have said it before, so many people give so much of their own time to inline hockey, that they come to expect to get something in return. Which IMO is justified ... as long as you admit it.

I would love someone just to come out and say ... this is my business plan and this is how I intend to make money out of inline hockey, and these are the benefits for you as players. Then individuals decide if the benefits are worth their dime.

All the back door "for the good of the sport" shannanigans are what really get my back up. Just come out and admit that money will be made to grease the palms of X, Y and Z people. I would have no issue with this ... what I do have issue with is smoke and mirrors.

Without a doubt Narch is the top of the inline tree ... and DG in everything I have ever read, admits he makes a decent living from it ... so I really don't see why the "good of the sport" must continue to be the driving justification for the people at the upper level of the game????

[Hockeydevil29]

Accct2 again everything you post is negative and you seem like a huge pot stirrer. So once again I will ask you the question you ignored last time I asked it. Do you or one of your children play in any of these RHA tournaments or programs (Narch, State Wars, Torhs, USA Clinics, PIHA, etc.)??? It is my understanding that you do not, so if that is the case I guess the bigger question is "why do you care?" My kids don't play soccer so I could care less what the local soccer programs happen to do.

[MBurke]

To preface, I am not involved with RHA in any way (I probably learned about it at the same time you guys did!), but I'm not sure what to think about some of the overtly negative responses here. A healthy dose of skepticism is always good, but come on!

Any growth in the sport will naturally benefit the for-profit companies AS WELL AS the not-for-profit companies affiliated with RHA. Isn't the entire point to foster long-term, sustainable growth? I think the point that Daryn, Tim and others have made is that by making RHA not-for-profit, the ONLY way for them to make more money with their for-profit businesses is to actually create a larger player base. That doesn't just benefit NARCh, State Wars, etc; it benefits the entirety of roller hockey.

General consensus on the board for several years has been that someone needs to step in and invest a lot of time and resources into the sport to stabilize it. Unless someone has an angel investor sitting on the sidelines right now, the only way that is going to happen is from the inside. If not to the top organizations in the industry as a catalyst behind this, then who? Does anyone here honestly expect some unknown person to stand up and offer to organize some type of NGB with any kind of positive result?

Yes, there is always going to be a "with us or against us" kind of quality to any type of sanctioning body - I think that is inescapable. Until I have more information as to how rinks/organizations sanction with RHA, I think it's too soon to draw conclusions about how inclusive this effort might be. That said, now's the time to provide that feedback in the form of suggestions and question :D

[InlineMBA]

I'm curious if NCRHA players, who have already paid the USAHIL membership fee to play the 2008-2009 season, will be required to buy a RHA membership?

Since there's only about 3 months left in the season (Nationals are in April), I would doubt it. But, we'll need it for TORHS and NARCh anyway, so it's not a problem.

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

[MBurke]

I'm curious if NCRHA players, who have already paid the USAHIL membership fee to play the 2008-2009 season, will be required to buy a RHA membership?


No - I know for sure that it will not be required this season and to my knowledge, NCRHA is partnered with USAHIL through next season as well.

[Berry_Bramble]

I'm curious if NCRHA players, who have already paid the USAHIL membership fee to play the 2008-2009 season, will be required to buy a RHA membership?

Since there's only about 3 months left in the season (Nationals are in April), I would doubt it. But, we'll need it for TORHS and NARCh anyway, so it's not a problem.

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

From NARCh's website...see below.


If you’ve already purchased USA Hockey Insurance for the sole purpose of playing in NARCh Events, you will not be charged twice. You will be required to show proof of USAHIL Coverage and fill out a form at Winternationals stating that you purchased the coverage for the purpose of playing in NARCh. RHA and USAHIL will work to credit the membership accordingly.

[PGHhockey]

Yeah, I don't really understand the big uproar and why it's happening right now. From the best of my understanding, everyone will have 1, 2, or even 3 years before any of this is "mandatory."

Does RHA have all the answers? No.

Will they have all the answers in a year or two? Probably not, but they will most likely have it together.

Since Day 1, this USAHIL/AAU debate has raged on to no end. Mostly everyone complains that we need 1 unified governing body. Others contend that the competition is good and keeps both organizations honest.

So, RHA comes together with some of the biggest, most well-respected people and organizations, and takes a real shot at unifying things. And you complain...

Yes, I agree that it sucks to pay & join AAU and USAHIL if you're a competitive player, coach, or ref. And yes, it will probably suck if you end up having to join all 3.

But, the real issue isn't the tournaments or the high-end leagues. It's the house leagues. That's where the real volume of memberships comes from. No pure roller player starts out playing NARCh or TORHS. They start out playing in the 6U house learn-to-play program.

So Daryn (or whomever else would like to answer) - is there a plan in place to organize/sanction/offer insurance for house leagues and players? If a true grassroots effort is made to convince rinks that your program is more beneficial than USAHIL or AAU, then you'll make some serious headway and it will eventually get the attention of the "big two" - only then will they get serious about working with this.

You have a HUGE task ahead of you. You're battling the empire. AAU and USAHIL have tremendous brand value, and (contrary to some people's belief) there are some really good people at both organizations.

But, your organizations and events also have strong brand value. Another 400-team tournament could pop up in 2009 and it would never compare to NARCh. State Wars is one of the most unique concepts in any sport. PIHA still stands strong despite the creation of a competitive league.

It will take a revolution over many months and many years to make this work, and I wish you all the best.

[Daryn G - NARCh]

As mind boggling as it may be, there’s no deception here. RHA is inclusive not exclusive. Just because other people in this sport have continuously manipulated people, drive a cult stake in the middle of the rink and tell people, “You’re either with us or against us,” it doesn’t mean that all are like that.

To answer a few of the wannabe anti-trust attorney’s questions: First, I said we were the most qualified, not the only qualified. To extend on that, I mean collectively, as a group discussing things together. If there are other people qualified, then what have they done and if they haven’t done anything, why not?

Second, everybody is welcome to be part of this. ACCCT2, you can even come, as I’m dying to meet you, although you would probably show up in a Halloween outfit to hide identity.

Listen, you can’t control people. If others would realize that we would have been a lot better off a long time ago. If you’re a player, play in whatever you want whenever you want. If you’re on a rink playing, that’s a good thing. To tell RHA players that they can only play in RHA events is idiotic, even though others have tried this monopolistic approach. Not only does it not work, it’s a disservice to the sport. The question of whether you will be COVERED in non RHA Events if you have an RHA Membership is a question for the insurers.

We are not the saviors of the sport. We’re simply going to try our best to make the sport better tomorrow then it is today, and I think we have a pretty good shot to do that.

Speaking for myself, I was a hockey player first, and an entrepreneur second. Most people that make up this group are the same. I honestly don’t know much about this non-profit stuff, luckily others do.

If anybody on here can say that I’ve said one thing and done another, then please feel free to call me to the carpet here and now. If you can’t, then go ahead and file all of these post and call me to the carpet when I fail or lie on what I’ve said. Until then……

LOOKING “forward” to (seeing)…..YOUR “NEXT” post!

[billybob]

Daryn why don't you tell them the truth? Your group hates AAU and wants them out of the sport. No reason to beat around the bush, your not going to look bad out here with all your uninformed supporters.

The main reason your group starting this RHA non profit was so that you could cut a deal with USARS for the Team USA program.


Billy

[ACCCT2]

Just as I thought -- NO simple and clarifying "YES" or "NO" answers whatsoever.

I would suggest RHA having a detailed and in-writing "mssion statement" that FULLY addresses key legal, insurance, competition and conflict-of-interest issues openly and up-front. RHA is clearly NOT doing this -- why?

And I'm not being "negative", quite the contrary -- I'm being VERY proactively responsible in intelligently and logically up-front evaluating a commercially-backed would-be quasi-NGB that has NO legal or financial transparancy whatsoever telling me to once again trust them in drinking their version of the "we're-saving-the-game-Kool-Aid" -- sorry, but if you're really doing this "out of the goodness of (your) hearts" then you should have absolutely no problem whatsoever with FULL disclosure in this regard, now shouldn't you?

I'm NOT faulting anyone who makes money off of their own numerous and sundry tournament, league, event, coaching and/or clinic offerings that obviously abound in our sport -- but I DO take serious issue with those "wolves" who would attempt to essentially take NON-democratic, NON-transparant and NON-accountable "mandatory" (and "certified"?) financial "control" over the sport's various and essential game-management infrastructures disguised in the ("out of the goodness of our hearts") "Holloween outfit" of "sheep".

[siberian khatru]

Just as I thought -- NO simple and clarifying "YES" or "NO" answers whatsoever.

I would suggest having a detailed and in-writing "mssion statement" that FULLY addresses key legal, insurance, competition and conflict-of-interest issues openly and up-front. RHA is clearly NOT doing this -- why?

And I'm not being "negative", quite the contrary -- I'm being VERY proactively responsible in intelligently and logically up-front evaluating a commercially-backed would-be quasi-NGB that has NO legal or financial transparancy whatsoever telling me to once again trust them in drinking their version of the saving-the-game "Kool-Aid" -- sorry, but if you're really doing this "out of the goodness of (your) hearts" then you should have absolutely no problem whatsoever with FULL disclosure in this regard, now shouldn't you?

Didn't you threaten/promise last March 19th not to post here anymore per the italicized paragraph pasted below? And what happened to that European tournament with millions in sponsporships you were crowing about last year? All I ever read in your posts are insults and lawsuit threats.

What have YOU done for the sport lately, Mr. Lurker In A Burka?

Mark Barbour
Chairman and Founder
Manhattan Roller Hockey League


Brilliant post, Richard. And perfect timing. This exactly why both "FLATBALL39" and I have decided that we will not be posting (or "sharing") our thoughts, insights, ideas and opinions on IHC anymore: we both have better and more important things to do than to engage and endure certain people who feel the unbridled need to commit a "chainsaw massacre" of defamation, insult, obscenity and unconscionably ignorant incivility on anyone who happens or dares to have even the slightest differing opinion, thought, insight or idea that even remotely seems to run counter to their own vitriolically intolerant, and apparently, unassailably sacrosanct, infallible and unimpeachable positions and/or command of the absolute "facts" (no matter how amazingly uninformed, unsupported and/or indefensible)...

[InlineMBA]

Brilliant post, Richard. And perfect timing. This exactly why both "FLATBALL39" and I have decided that we will not be posting (or "sharing") our thoughts, insights, ideas and opinions on IHC anymore: we both have better and more important things to do than to engage and endure certain people who feel the unbridled need to commit a "chainsaw massacre" of defamation, insult, obscenity and unconscionably ignorant incivility on anyone who happens or dares to have even the slightest differing opinion, thought, insight or idea that even remotely seems to run counter to their own vitriolically intolerant, and apparently, unassailably sacrosanct, infallible and unimpeachable positions and/or command of the absolute "facts" (no matter how amazingly uninformed, unsupported and/or indefensible)...

WOW ! ! ! Reading that, gave me a headache.

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

[Daryn G - NARCh]

Dear AAU (Billybob),

I don’t hate anybody. AAU will not be going away anytime soon, due to the value that some rinks see in paying a low price for insurance. Especially since most turn around and charge their customers more, putting the difference in their pocket. I don’t even blame them for this, as many rinks are hurting and some of those are great personal friends of mine.

Yes, we met with USARS. We proposed to help them with the selection process of TEAM USA. Basically the players would come from our events to the selection camp and then an unbiased committee would pick the team, which is exactly how it should! Of course you know this and they’re not changing this year, so you can breath easy and stop gripping. USARS is meeting with us for a reason, I didn’t call the meeting.

What I don’t like about AAU is that there’s no level of accountability. For example, the USARS Championships were on their website as being held in August. Cool, nothing going on in August, that’s a good time for it. Well now it’s been rescheduled for July, smack dab in the middle of July, same time as the NARCh Finals. After years of this I’ve developed a rash.


Bill H, I know many rinks have already contacted RHA and I agree, the growth of the learn to play and house leagues are the most important component to securing the future of the sport. Personally, I think the first step is for the rink owner to have discussions with RHA as to ways they might be able to work together. Every rink is different and has strengths and weaknesses. Those need to be identified as a starting point.

ACCT2, wow, a post with no attacks? I agree with your detailed mission statement comment but the average player is not threatened by people trying to help the sport, so a bunch of legal jargon is not up there on the priority list. I’m guessing they want to know how RHA will help the sport. Agree though, all is important to have at some point. Feel free to point me to that link on the AAU and USAHIL site that takes me to their mission statements that address these issues.

[ianmackie]

The main reason this group was started has everything to do with nothing you are talking about. They brought it to the two main membership providers (USAHIL and USARS) with the idea of having one main group. The meetings were all very positive with the goal of including all...but the timing was not right. I think both took a wait and see approach and that means this year is important for the RHA. The end goal is one membership for all.

I think the RHA saw a need within our sport for guidance and that includes the local rinks. Anytime I try something to build my youth players at my local rink Daryn is the first one to ask about it. When I got into the local schools to send flyers home recently it was him, not my owner, that was the most excited. Daryn and the RHA are about growth in roller hockey.

In the end if USAHIL and USARS improve and help build/guide our sport again then we will see the one group that we all desire. What is the best answer? I don't know if anyone knows yet, but I am excited to see how this all plays out.

Ian

[ACCCT2]

And what happened to that European tournament with millions in sponsporships you were crowing about last year? All I ever read in your posts are insults and lawsuit threats.

Our "European tournament" (yes, "with millions in sponsorships") is coming along just fine. We have a spectacular venue in an amazingly scenic and fun place. Actually, we're also finalizing 2 more event/venues (with yes, "millions in sponsorships") that we will announce when ready. And I assure you -- we will NOT seek RHA "certification" or "sanction" for anything and are presently working on an insurance rider that would allow our events to have ALL present insurance injury/liability coverages accepted. And as I, just like ALL of the RHA partners, am a private, profit-making businessman running a private, profit-making company, well, just like those RHA partners do in deciding 'what' and 'when' and 'how much' in their private, profit-making businesses -- I choose to disclose nothing more until appropriate.

[Daryn G - NARCh]

And to think I gave you an ounce of credibility......jeez.

[ianmackie]

And to think I gave you an ounce of credibility......jeez.

Thanks Daryn...oh, was that meant for the post that I cannot understand. I need to take some reading comprehension classes to read the ACCCT2 posts. I am just not able to do it.

Oh well.

[ACCCT2]

And to think I gave you an ounce of credibility......jeez.

Hmmm...so someone's "credibility" is affected by what, simply stating something that you have absolutely no knowledge or control whatsoever over? That's the basic nature of competitive, private and (hopefully) profit-making business, now isn't it, DG? Don't worry, I'll live without your "ounce" just fine.

[ianmackie]

Hmmm...so someone's "credibility" is affected by what, simply stating something that you have absolutely no knowledge or control whatsoever over? That's the basic nature of competitive, private and (hopefully) profit-making business, now isn't it, DG? Don't worry, I'll live without your "ounce" just fine.

I could understand that one.

[Berry_Bramble]

I could understand that one.

............x2

[ACCCT2]

I could understand that one.

GREAT, I'm happy that someone here is happy on this one!;)

[PGHhockey]

Daryn - how can I get in touch with you? I have a little email typed up about our rink and what we can do.

Thanks!

[siberian khatru]

Our "European tournament" (yes, "with millions in sponsorships") is coming along just fine. We have a spectacular venue in an amazingly scenic and fun place. Actually, we're also finalizing 2 more event/venues (with yes, "millions in sponsorships") that we will announce when ready. And I assure you -- we will NOT seek RHA "certification" or "sanction" for anything and are presently working on an insurance rider that would allow our events to have ALL present insurance injury/liability coverages accepted. And as I, just like ALL of the RHA partners, am a private, profit-making businessman running a private, profit-making company, well, just like those RHA partners do in deciding 'what' and 'when' and 'how much' in their private, profit-making businesses -- I choose to disclose nothing more until appropriate.

Just checking. Per your italicized 2/6/08 post below about this tournament it was well over 200,000 Euros as of last year. If you are indeed putting this together I wish you luck.

I know you operate out of NYC so maybe you know some of the skaters playing in my purely recreational adult league. We're sending our elite players and some of our teams to the Winternationals and NARCh for the first time after requiring everyone in the league to register with USAHIL a few months ago. While I'm not thrilled with new sanctioning, certification and insurance requirements Daryn has a lot of credibility and I think this RHA is worth fostering. I can't understand the need to start pissing all over it when it's just out of the womb.

USAHIL has been very supportive of my league and they've sent a lot of help and lent a lot of guidance to a kids program we're working with at a rink on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. While I really couldn't be happier with the relationship, inline hockey is riding on the hump in the backseat of USAH's car. I'm willing to see what this RHA can accomplish.

Mark Barbour
Chairman and Founder
Manhattan Roller Hockey League


Our tournament/event is indeed going to happen -- and as I said before, we'll let everyone know at the same time as to 'when' once we're ready. Don't worry, part of our program involves exclusive "Event Travel Packages" that will include everything needed (international airfare; hotels; ground; sightseeing & cultural program; diplomatic receptions & after-parties; etc.) for each team & player participating. Our airline (& ground) gateways include "capital" departures from every major inline hockey-playing nation and then some.

Just so anyone who might be curious knows -- one the reasons we secured well over 200,000 Euros in "purse" and sponsorship money, as well as the reason we can do everything this "BIG" is because we've partnered with numerous logistical "event partners" that have come on-board with us based upon a certain guaranteed volume of expected business that will be generated off of and from the event. And everything pre-packaged together allows for "one-stop" shopping and confirmation of virtually everyone who will be coming to the event.

And I further guarantee you that our "Event Travel Packages" will beat anything that you could put together on your own to/from "danunda'" there in Australia (as well as from anywhere else around the globe).

So, don't sweat the announcement -- once the word's out, you'll have plenty of time for team/player registration, confirmation and fundraising, etc.

[StateWarsDir]

Wow it's amazing how much talk the RHA has sparked in a few days. I also find it amusing how 99% of the people who say something positive list their name and 99% of the people who speak negatively (not just about RHA but in general) hide their names or list some bogus one.

What people fail to realize or keep ignoring is that RHA is being formed not out of greed or arrogance but out of need. The sport has not been growing and their is a need for new direction or at least more attention to certain areas. I will speak for myself Billybob when I say that I do not hate AAU, in fact I consider myself to have a good relationship with Keith Noll at AAU as I do as well with Jeremy and others at USAHIL. What many may not know is that for two straight years, I tried to convince AAU and USAHIL to co-sanction State Wars, this way any player as long as they had one of these two memberships, would be covered and allowed to participate. I thought this was a win win for all and most importantly a cost savor to the parents, many of whom do not even "need" the secondary insurance. Both AAU and USAHIL wouldn't go for it, it was either one or the other. So considering USAHIL supported my business when it began in 2005, I chose to stay the course with them.

In regards to RHA, like it has been mentioned here numerous times now, we have tried to work with both sides...unfortunately neither side has been willing to support the things RHA knows needs to be done in this sport. A question was asked by one of the posters, "but why do you have to offer insurance?" That's a good question. The answer to that is the RHA needs funding to do the things we know need to be done to grow the sport. If we required our players to purchase USAHIL ($30) and then purchase and RHA membership (minus insurance) say for $15 or $20, then that customer would still have to pay more. With RHA including the insurance, we can keep the cost at $30 and be able to have funding to do the things we see important.

We know we aren't going to be able to change the world or make tons of difference over night, but we have a great group of people, with a lot of passion for the sport who are working together for the FIRST time ever in our sport. To me that's a great thing. People can trash it and accuse us of anything they want, but the most important thing in my mind is that 99% of the people who really care and who drive this sport are not the ones posting on here. So in the end, we will keep working hard to better this sport, whether everyone like it or not.

Tim McManus

[Berry_Bramble]

You are trying to unify the sport. There, I said something negative.

[ACCCT2]

You are trying to unify the sport. There, I said something negative.

Well, positively "negative" anyway...!!!;)

[STEMM]

WOW, I'm sure glad this topic is hot again, I missed it during the almost 2 day hiatus...THANK YOU RICHARD GRAHM for creating IHC and providing me with this entertainment...The post from ACCT2 about his European Tournament was probably the most hilarious thing I've ever read on here, much better than his/her typical head-spinning posts...Daryn you mentioned nothing goes on in August ? I'm looking forward to State Wars this August just as I was last...Anyway, to RHA good luck in your future endeavours, hopefully the new alliance DOES better the sport, and if you guys make a some money of it, well thats great too, you should be rewarded for your efforts.

Jason STEMMler

[Berry_Bramble]

Well, positively "negative" anyway...!!!;)

I'll take a ' ;) '

[Doug Jones]

Wow it's amazing how much talk the RHA has sparked in a few days. I also find it amusing how 99% of the people who say something positive list their name and 99% of the people who speak negatively (not just about RHA but in general) hide their names or list some bogus one.


Tim McManus

Tim:

Character is something you and Daryn have and have always had. Sadly others here who feel the need to disagree have to shield themselves. They shield themselves because they know when they walk up to the both of you sans their screen name they shake your hand and of course act like a friend/supporter.

I started this post because I was genuinely excited about the people I've worked with who have always talked about bettering the sport. If you don't agree that's your right and perogative, but let's stop the personal attacks.

I feel RHA given the chance will help build and grow our sport at the grass roots level. All of us can listen and judge for ourselves.

Billy bob (AAU supporter), enough of the shots at all of us.

I'll quote a great man here:


"If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference"

Abraham Lincoln

[ACCCT2]

"If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference"

Abraham Lincoln

Yeah, but Lincoln wasn't trying to "save" (or "certify") anything outside of his intent to maintain "the Union" -- "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union...and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." (Letter to Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862) -- Methinks that RHA's "mandatory" objectives to "certify" and "save" anything inline hockey fall far, far short of invoking anything even remotely "Lincoln", don't you think?

As it presently is configured and outlined, RHA is definitely NOT an entity to blindly trust with anything that would in any way restrict anyone from either playing, coaching, organizing or running anything within our sport without the RHA first excercising an open, accountable, transparant and democratically-based decision making process in it's "certifying" or establishing anything "mandatory" upon the wallets and pocketbooks and rightful expectations of it's members and the whole of the inline hockey community in general. And until it actually does so (in an open, accountable, transparant and democratically-based way) and evidences otherwise, in my own opinion, it's quite simply a "wolves-in-sheeps-clothing" cabal of profit-oriented companies looking to eventually exercise as much economic and quasi-NGB-like infrastructural control over the game as they possibly can -- and personally, I think that the way a lot of them are so defensively and "negatively" reacting to any kind questioning of their motives or so-called "goodness of (their) hearts" evinces and evidences that kind of "with-us-or-against-us" mentality which quite frankly, all should have serious and rightful pause with.

[Hoffer]

ACCCT2,
This question has already been asked by others and you have yet to answer it and I would also like to know the answer so I will ask it as well. Do you or one of your children play in any of these RHA tournaments or programs (Narch, State Wars, Torhs, USA Clinics, PIHA, etc.)? Or would for you to answer this question be so earth shattering that it needs its own topic…

[Dean Portman]

Yeah, but Lincoln wasn't trying to "save" (or "certify") anything outside of his intent to maintain "the Union" -- "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union...and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." (Letter to Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862) -- Methinks that RHA's "mandatory" objectives to "certify" and "save" anything inline hockey fall far, far short of invoking anything even remotely "Lincoln", don't you think?

As it presently is configured and outlined, RHA is definitely NOT an entity to blindly trust with anything that would in any way restrict anyone from either playing, coaching, organizing or running anything within our sport without the RHA first excercising an open, accountable, transparant and democratically-based decision making process in it's "certifying" or establishing anything "mandatory" upon the wallets and pocketbooks and rightful expectations of it's members and the whole of the inline hockey community in general. And until it actually does so (in an open, accountable, transparant and democratically-based way) and evidences otherwise, in my own opinion, it's quite simply a "wolves-in-sheeps-clothing" cabal of profit-oriented companies looking to eventually exercise as much economic and quasi-NGB-like infrastructural control over the game as they possibly can -- and personally, I think that the way a lot of them are so defensively and "negatively" reacting to any kind questioning of their motives or so-called "goodness of (their) hearts" evinces and evidences that kind of "with-us-or-against-us" mentality with which all should have serious and rightful pause with.

Is this Dave Garland?

[AJ Barnett]

To me, this sounds like we are trying to start a civil war of our own within inline hockey. Abraham Lincoln was trying to stop a well founded country from destructing from without and within. He began something that can be seen as it is by many, unconstitutional. He changed the structure of the states to ensure a strong central government, something that the founders of our country (Charles Pinckney, Charles L. Pinckney amd William Few to name a few. Some people will see a trend) were afraid of. But Lincoln did it to save our country, and in the end, succeeded.

Sometimes there is a strong need for person (or in our case, body of people) to come together and lead us back together. Instead of making this a AAU/USARS vs. RHA war (or in some people's cases, a Self vs. RHA war, or the opposite), why don't we all just agree that the RHA actually could be good for our sport? Can we at least give new sanctioning a chance?

[ianmackie]

To me, this sounds like we are trying to start a civil war of our own within inline hockey. Abraham Lincoln was trying to stop a well founded country from destructing from without and within. He began something that can be seen as it is by many, unconstitutional. He changed the structure of the states to ensure a strong central government, something that the founders of our country (Charles Pinckney, Charles L. Pinckney amd William Few to name a few. Some people will see a trend) were afraid of. But Lincoln did it to save our country, and in the end, succeeded.

Sometimes there is a strong need for person (or in our case, body of people) to come together and lead us back together. Instead of making this a AAU/USARS vs. RHA war (or in some people's cases, a Self vs. RHA war, or the opposite), why don't we all just agree that the RHA actually could be good for our sport? Can we at least give new sanctioning a chance?

Wow. Good answer. Get ready to get attacked for giving it a chance though.

[AJ Barnett]

Wow. Good answer. Get ready to get attacked for giving it a chance though.

I'm used to getting attacked on these forums, believe me.

[Drexel63]

I'm going to throw this out there, and if you care to know where I stand when it comes to ACCCT2, you can search my history, and see posts both agreeing, and disagreeing with him....

This thread, and topic of conversation, has absolutely nothing to do with his name, background, or experiences... He is an opinion, and nothing more since we know nothing of him. He, however, expresses his opinion in an intelligent manner, and at least the content of his words should be considered, in my opinion, even if they have to be reformatted and taken as they are... criticism...

If the RHA proves itself, over the time that it will take, time that many have not yet given them, to be of value to the greater good of the game, it is my opinion that it does not matter whose pockets get greased in the mean time, as long as they give back to the sport itself. If it does not prove so, then all of this conversation is for naught, and that includes both the positive and constructively negative comments. If RHA succeeds, both the positive and constructively negative comments will be a factor as well. Having met many of them personally, I'd be hard pressed to find a person in RHA who would turn away a good idea because it was brought to light by a dissenter, or in a negative light, after all...

But in the long run, all you are doing by calling out ACCCT2, or any other anonymous poster, is muddying the waters of a very important discussion, about a very important event in our little corner of the world... Not to mention, the more energy you waste caring who he is, the less you spend trying to figure out what he is saying, and that, I believe is the only thing he has to offer at this point, since we do not know him. I don't think he would disagree, or find insult in that statement...

edit: Last point... if you don't care about what someone has to say, then don't pay attention... what you miss is noone's fault but your own... If you truly care about the sport (directed at everyone, and noone in particular), you'd take everything said, and try to find the constructive points within it, and if there are none, you throw it away with the bathwater...

[AJ Barnett]

Ian Mackie

MOIHA (AAU Sanctioned), PIHA (USAHIL Sanctioned), TORHS (RHA Sanctioned), MWSH, LU, Dad

[email protected]

This brings up a good point I want to make (I hope it's ok that I use your signature as an example Ian). There is no rule under any sanctioned league saying you can only belong to leagues that they sanction. Ian belongs to three leagues, all with different sanctions (well for now).

[RevisonHockey]

While I'm sure many questions and doubts have been flying around about the new RHA. I will point out as a vendor we at Revision Hockey have chosen very carefully in the last 3 years since I have taken over which groups and organizations to be a part of. As you can imagine the number of request we receive for $$$ or for product for sponsorships every year. All that being said our reasons for choosing an organization center around which organizations promote the growth of the sport, and which organizations provide an experience that the parents and players perceive as well worth the time and money spent. As it turns out over the last 3 years the organizations we have continued relationships have been:

NAYRHL
NARCH
StateWars
NCRHA
USA Clinics

With that being said, each of these organizations are a part of the RHA. Therefore, I personally know from having in depth discussions and interacting with those who own and/or operate these organizations have a vested interest in the growth of the sport as well as in providing a quality product to its participants. Otherwise they would be no longer be in existence or would be on the declining as opposed to being some of the few organizations actually showing growth in numbers and profits. I think we can easily agree on 3 things.

1) we need some organization to do a better job than what has and is currently being done.

2) Lets give these guys a shot before we pass judgement

3) Daryn, Tim, CJ, Rob, Nanette, Peter, Charley, and all the rest involved - its up to you now to make things happen and show how much better things can be done.

Nabeel Gerges,
Brand Manager - Revision Hockey

[ACCCT2]

To me, this sounds like we are trying to start a civil war of our own within inline hockey. Abraham Lincoln was trying to stop a well founded country from destructing from without and within. He began something that can be seen as it is by many, unconstitutional. He changed the structure of the states to ensure a strong central government, something that the founders of our country (Charles Pinckney, Charles L. Pinckney amd William Few to name a few. Some people will see a trend) were afraid of. But Lincoln did it to save our country, and in the end, succeeded.

Sometimes there is a strong need for person (or in our case, body of people) to come together and lead us back together. Instead of making this a AAU/USARS vs. RHA war (or in some people's cases, a Self vs. RHA war, or the opposite), why don't we all just agree that the RHA actually could be good for our sport? Can we at least give new sanctioning a chance?

Abraham Lincoln wasn't "greasing his pockets" or in any way personally profiting off of "saving" or more accurately, preserving "the Union". Further, even in a bloody, bloody country-saving civil war he never used unilateral, dictatorial, NON-democratic, NON-accountable or NON-transparant "mandatory" means to effect his desired outcome. He believed in the innate and basically decent wisdom and abilities of his constituants and their inspired ability to freely and generously "do the right thing". The RHA cabal of mostly profit-oriented businessmen on the other hand, by all evidence so far exhibited, seems to think that ONLY they know the ("certified"?) "right" way to "save" our sport -- hmmm...I wonder how long our nation's inevitable Civil War and "Union" would've lasted and turned out with ONLY their kind of self-appointed, seld-annointed and self-agrandizing "certified" profiteers at the "mandatory" controls?

NOPE, definitely NOT drinkin' the "Kood-Aid" on this one and definitely NOT giving any profit-oriented businessmen the chance to establish self-serving "mandatory" and/or "certification" controls over what could be a very profitable consumer marketshare -- not until RHA evinces and evidences open, transparant and democratic decision-making procedures to ensure the FULL accountability, reliability and integrity of the group and their decision-making proceedures.

To me, RHA appears to be more of an exculsive "members only" entity more realistically inclined to operate and adjudicate and "certify" more like an exclusive inline hockey "chamber of commerce" than a truly open and inclusive and democratic "game-saving" organiztion that would (and should) benefit the actual players of the game before they portend or presume to make "mandatory" and/or "certify" anything in the wide, wide world of our game.

So, RHA -- for the sake of reliably reassuring your "certified" future "members" and industry competitors, how 'bout a little open and transparant and democratic decision-making processes being first outlined and presented (for proper and ethical "control" of anything "decided" upon) BEFORE you go and put in place anything "mandatory" or proclaim yourselves the ONLY "true" game-saving "messiahs" of our beloved sport?

Just asking...

[ianmackie]

This brings up a good point I want to make (I hope it's ok that I use your signature as an example Ian). There is no rule under any sanctioned league saying you can only play in leagues that they sanction. Ian plays in three leagues, all with different sanctions (well for now).

Not as much play as Commissioner (PIHA Gateway Division), Coach (Assistant Coach at LU), Partner/Commissioner (MOIHA), Tournament Executive with TORHS...but the point is the same. None of these sanctioning bodies have ever said to not do one or the other. In fact I like that I am friends and do business with all three.

[TylerSollberger]

[QUOTE=ACCCT2;56900]Abraham Lincoln wasn't "greasing his pockets" or in any way personally profiting off of "saving" or more accurately, preserving "the Union". Further, even in a bloody, bloody country-saving civil war he never used unilateral, dictatorial, NON-democratic, NON-accountable or NON-transparant "mandatory" means to effect his desired outcome. He believed in the innate and basically decent wisdom and abilities of his constituants and their inspired ability to freely and generously "do the right thing". The RHA cabal of mostly profit-oriented businessmen on the other hand, by all evidence so far exhibited, seems to think that ONLY they know the ("certified"?) "right" way to "save" our sport -- hmmm...I wonder how long our nation's inevitable Civil War and "Union" would've lasted and turned out with ONLY their kind of self-appointed, seld-annointed and self-agrandizing "certified" profiteers at the "mandatory" controls?

NOPE, definitely NOT drinkin' the "Kood-Aid" on this one and definitely NOT giving any profit-oriented businessmen the chance to establish self-serving "mandatory" and "certification" controls over what could be a very profitable consumer marketshare -- not until RHA evinces and evidences open, transparant and democratic decision-making procedures to ensure the FULL accountability, relaibility and integrity of the group and their decision-making proceedures.

To me, RHA appears to be more of an exculsive "members only" entity more realistically inclined to operate and adjudicate and "certify" more like an exclusive inline hockey "chamber of commerce" than a truly open and inclusive and democratic "game-saving" organiztion that would (and should) benefit the actual players of the game before they portend to make "mandatory" and/or "certify" anything in the wide, wide world of our game.

So, RHA -- for the sake of reliably reassuring your "certified" future "members" and industry competitors, how 'bout a little open and transparant and democratic decision-making processes being first outlined and presented (for proper and ethical "control" of anything "decided" upon) BEFORE you go and put in place anything "mandatory" or proclaim yourselves the ONLY "true" game-saving "messiahs" of our beloved sport?

Just asking...[/QUOTE


What is your solution Freud? You have a lot of complaining in your posts, but let us hear what you would do. By the way, I dont think anyone from RHA said they were "Game-Saving." Get a clue and give it time. The sport has enough negative people hiding in the background. I'm a small part of the sport, but am glad that people are stepping up and making an attempt to bring unity to our sport. Quit wasting everone's time.

[ACCCT2]

[QUOTE=ACCCT2;56900]Abraham Lincoln wasn't "greasing his pockets" or in any way personally profiting off of "saving" or more accurately, preserving "the Union". Further, even in a bloody, bloody country-saving civil war he never used unilateral, dictatorial, NON-democratic, NON-accountable or NON-transparant "mandatory" means to effect his desired outcome. He believed in the innate and basically decent wisdom and abilities of his constituants and their inspired ability to freely and generously "do the right thing". The RHA cabal of mostly profit-oriented businessmen on the other hand, by all evidence so far exhibited, seems to think that ONLY they know the ("certified"?) "right" way to "save" our sport -- hmmm...I wonder how long our nation's inevitable Civil War and "Union" would've lasted and turned out with ONLY their kind of self-appointed, seld-annointed and self-agrandizing "certified" profiteers at the "mandatory" controls?

NOPE, definitely NOT drinkin' the "Kood-Aid" on this one and definitely NOT giving any profit-oriented businessmen the chance to establish self-serving "mandatory" and "certification" controls over what could be a very profitable consumer marketshare -- not until RHA evinces and evidences open, transparant and democratic decision-making procedures to ensure the FULL accountability, relaibility and integrity of the group and their decision-making proceedures.

To me, RHA appears to be more of an exculsive "members only" entity more realistically inclined to operate and adjudicate and "certify" more like an exclusive inline hockey "chamber of commerce" than a truly open and inclusive and democratic "game-saving" organiztion that would (and should) benefit the actual players of the game before they portend to make "mandatory" and/or "certify" anything in the wide, wide world of our game.

So, RHA -- for the sake of reliably reassuring your "certified" future "members" and industry competitors, how 'bout a little open and transparant and democratic decision-making processes being first outlined and presented (for proper and ethical "control" of anything "decided" upon) BEFORE you go and put in place anything "mandatory" or proclaim yourselves the ONLY "true" game-saving "messiahs" of our beloved sport?

Just asking...[/QUOTE


What is your solution Freud? You have a lot of complaining in your posts, but let us hear what you would do. By the way, I dont think anyone from RHA said they were "Game-Saving." Get a clue and give it time. The sport has enough negative people hiding in the background. I'm a small part of the sport, but am glad that people are stepping up and making an attempt to bring unity to our sport. Quit wasting everone's time.

Hmmm...well, in my mind, inline hockey doesn't need a "Freud", it needs a Bill Gates and/or Steven Jobs. Did I "waste" any more of "everyone's time" with that one?:eek:

[Berry_Bramble]

Just asking...

Fantastic question.

[AJ Barnett]

Hmmm...well, in my mind, inline hockey doesn't need a "Freud", it needs a Bill Gates and/or Steven Jobs. Did I "waste" any more of "everyone's time" with that one?:eek:

Now hold on here. You say that inline hockey needs a Bill Gates or a Steven Jobs, but do you realize the the computer industry would never have come as far as it has without both of them. The advances made in home computers are because of the battle between Microsoft and Macintosh. Although this is the opposite of what I believe the sport needs, aren't you saying that inline hockey needs two big sanctions, as to bring about a battle? If so, then why are you shooting down the RHA? Essentially, it is giving you what you want.

[Berry_Bramble]

[QUOTE=ACCCT2;56903]

Now hold on here. You say that inline hockey needs a Bill Gates of a Steven Jobs, but do you realize the the computer industry would never have come as far as it has without both of them. The advances made in home computers are because of the battle between Microsoft and Macintosh. Although this is the opposite of what I believe the sport needs, aren't you saying that inline hockey needs two big sanctions? If so, then why are you shooting down the RHA? Essentially, it is giving you what you want.

ssshhhh the Germans are bombing Pearl Harbor!

[ACCCT2]

[QUOTE=AJ Barnett;56905]

ssshhhh the Germans are bombing Pearl Harbor!

I don't know 'bout the rest of y'all, but my day's been made whole and happy with that one and I believe that it's "mandatory" that I bow out of this "certified" mandatory-merry-go-round! Good Luck to everyone on whatever y'all collectively decide to collectively "certify" for your "collective" selves.;)

[alex]

[QUOTE=TylerSollberger;56902]

Hmmm...well, in my mind, inline hockey doesn't need a "Freud", it needs a Bill Gates and/or Steven Jobs. Did I "waste" any more of "everyone's time" with that one?:eek:

You avoided the question. He asked you what your solution is. Surely, you have some solutions and ideas right? You said earlier in this discussion that you're not merely being negative so let's hear ACCCCT2's positive thoughts. Share your "wealth of knowledge" and for the first time offer up something positive. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to hear it.

Surprise us and don't reply with incoherent rambling about lawsuits, billion dollar European tournaments, or a complete dodging of the question.

[ACCCT2]

[QUOTE=ACCCT2;56903]

You avoided the question. He asked you what your solution is. Surely, you have some solutions and ideas right? You said earlier in this discussion that you're not merely being negative so let's hear ACCCCT2's positive thoughts. Share your "wealth of knowledge" and for the first time offer up something positive. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to hear it.

Surprise us and don't reply with incoherent rambling about lawsuits, billion dollar European tournaments, or a complete dodging of the question.

I didn't "avoid" or "dodge" any question. And too many people on this website seem to have a problem with others who won't buy into or drink whatever the "flavor-of-the-month-Kool-Aid" subject/entity is at the moment (at this moment it's "Mandatory-RHA-Certified" or "Mandatory-Mandarin-Orange" or something like that), so being the dye-in-the-wool litigant you apparantly assume that I am, sue me (sorry Richard, I didn't really mean that).

In any event, I don't really feel complelled or inspired to "share" anything and my "something positive" will be "offered up" once the time is appropriate and not one second sooner.

And I've never initiated anything about "billion dollar" (or even "million" dollar) "European tournaments" -- that others take what little I've revealed and sarcastically "run with it" is your problem, not mine.

Ultimately Dudes & Dudesses, this comes down to one question: WHY SO SENSITIVE about a basic due diligence that any potential "member" should ask of a potential "certifying" and cash-fee expecting "member organization" -- WHY, have we struck an exposed nerve or something? Is NOT answering basic "membership" questions and/or concerns NOT part of RHA's "mandatory" responsibilities?

[InlineMBA]

WHY SO SENSITIVE about a basic due diligence that any potential "member" should ask of a potential "certifying" and cash-fee expecting "member organization"

"Due diligence" for thirty freakin dollars? Are you nuts or somethin?

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

[Hockeydevil29]

Steve not even worth your breath, besides the "European Mega Tournament" this joker has been building a lifelong lawsuit against USA Hockey for years too. Have you ever seen the movie "A Beautiful Mind"? Well this guy reminds me of Russell Crowe's character, living in his own "fantasy land".

[ACCCT2]

Steve not even worth your breath, besides the "European Mega Tournament" this joker has been building a lifelong lawsuit against USA Hockey for years too. Have you ever seen the movie "A Beautiful Mind"? Well this guy reminds me of Russell Crowe's character, living in his own "fantasy land".

Oh, what you don't know -- last laughs are always so incredibly rewarding, releasing and fun!;)

Really, you should forget about whatever I think and stay "on point" guys (and maybe then you'll ensure you get at least a little bit of what you thought you paid for with your eventual "mandatory" RHA "certifcation" fees and dues and "don'ts").

[AJ Barnett]

OK, I call for a thread lock.

[Berry_Bramble]

OK, I call for a thread lock.

Booo...


Oh, what you don't know -- last laughs are always so incredibly rewarding, releasing and fun!;)

Really, you should forget about whatever I think and stay "on point" guys (and maybe then you'll ensure you get at least a little bit of what you thought you paid for with your eventual "mandatory" RHA "certifcation" fees and dues and "don'ts").

But really. What would you do different? Nothing wrong with you asking a million and one questions. Just wondering what you would want the answers to be? What is the best direction for our sport in the eyes of ACCCT2?

[RichardGraham]

Hi Folks,

I caught up on this thread today after taking a couple days off from reading IHC's Forums. :D

Personally, I think it's mostly been a good give-and-take on serious issues facing our sport. I haven't seen too much of what I'd say were personal attacks, especially when you compare the conversation to that of our recent presidential campaign. However, I may be more tolerant than some of IHC's readers, some of whom I find have extremely thin skins.

So, please send me a private message regarding any posts or portions thereof that you feel cross the line, and I will take a look at them.

I am still trying to figure out what I want to do with the Forums section in general. It has caused me much grief and many headaches, but I agree with the majority of posters who believe that the message boards can be a positive force for the sport, as they permit wide-ranging discussions on many issues facing inline hockey.

I will lock this thread now, however. Feel free to start RHA II, but try to keep it civil. Think about how we can improve the sport, not just slam each other into the boards all the time.