refs affecting outcome of games too much

[acorvin1]

It could just be my team but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others. In games that were decided by two goals or less, (that's nine out of ten) on average the ref's called 6.5 penalties on us. We're spending the equivalent of over a period in the box in close, winnable games.

I'm sure you can credit some calls to lack of discipline on my team's part or a boneheaded play here or there, but it just seems like this year the ref's are playing a bigger part in deciding the outcome of games.

I understand that rule changes were made and teams need to re-adjust their play. Everything the league has done was made in an attempt to improve the game, but it seems like more 4 on 2 powerplays and more players attempting "the michigan" turn the game into more of a skills competition and less of a hockey game.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I'd rather see more grind-em-out games with ref's in the background than dangle contests with the ref's deciding who win's and who loses.

Or it could just be that we're the dirtiest team in the league...:rolleyes:

[Drexel63]

Refs only affect the outcome of games when teams refuse to adapt to the calls being made during them..

(This isnt a direct shot at your team, btw) If you think there are too many calls, stop playing like an outdoor lacrosse team and keep your sticks on the ground, that eliminates nearly everything the refs are looking to call outright...

Also, the refs held an open forum this weekend... I know players from my team attended, and while coaching them in the games following, I noticed a marked improvement in their ability to adapt to the calls being made, as the game moved forward...

[PGHhockey]

As I'm sure you all know, I usually tend to side with officials on debates like this.

Good comment about keeping your stick down. Usually stickwork leads to retalitory stickwork, or heavy bodywork, which leads to fights, unsportsmanlike, etc. Typically, most players don't mind some body play as long as it's in "good hockey."

But, I must comment about "The Michigan" and "The Hurricane" and all the other pretty moves out there.

Kids, I know you love these moves, but I really think there are more people these days that can pick up a puck than there are people that can stop on a dime. Now, what matters more in a game situation: pulling off a sick move (that will eventually get your arm broken by someone) or basic fundamentals?

I often worry about the future of our game - too much showmanship. I know that it has forever been an issue with inline hockey, but I don't see the problem going away.

[KAppel]

In my opinion, this past weekend was a vast improvement over ECRHA Event #3 in Broomall/Marple. I think it's a combination of the players finally getting it and the refs, in turn, being able to let up a little and only make the necessary calls.

It's my understanding that only a couple of players went to the refs' open forum. Now I'll admit that I felt the refs were cracking down way too hard at Broomall and I was worried, but my team captain showed at the forum and discussed things with them and we took less penalties after that point. So I would say that if you have issues with the officiating, you need to take advantage of those opportunities. Otherwise, it doesn't look good that virtually nobody showed up when they were willing to discuss things, but then people complain on a message board. Which isn't to point you out, Corvin - there were a lot of people complaining and nobody at that meeting.

But overall it seemed like they found some consistency this weekend and I think things were a lot better than a few weeks ago. The biggest thing, as Sherwood mentioned, is definitely the stick work. They will call that 11 times out of 10. And while I certainly like a more muck-and-grind, hard working brand of hockey, it is what it is and people have to adapt.

Lastly, I'm a goalie and never take penalties anyway so feel free to disregard everything I have said or ever will say. In fact, I would recommend that course of action.

[JLambertUMSL]

So far in the GPCIHL (two events so far), officiating has not been an issue for anyone, as far as I know.

Our games have been called fairly (they're on the rougher, "let 'em play" side).

We've practiced our power play very hard lately in preparation for that LU matchup (we were 2-for-2 when we beat them in March so we figured the power play would be the key to having a chance to do it again), and it's clicking right now, but we'd rather play 4-on-4 than have a special teams contest.

The UMSL-LU game was very physical, but there wasn't a penalty called until late in the second period, when one of our guys put a little too much yank into a routine (but illegal by the book) arm-hook. It was something that had to be called.

The only penalty calls I thought were missed during that game were dives (three of them -- only one was glaringly obvious). But I've never seen one of those called (is there a rule addressing diving?) and I'm pretty sure the game was still scoreless when the worst one occurred, so I wouldn't expect a call in that situation anyway.

There was also a goalie interference infraction that could have been called against us during the second period, but it was borderline (not blatant) and didn't affect the play.

So, I've gotta give props to Andy Hayes and Tyler Sollberger for calling an excellent, fair game on Saturday afternoon.

[someonestopme]

SECRHL reffing has been a joke... inconsistent calls, and missed goals that everyone in the entire rink are seeing except the 2 refs on the rink. Been a joke, def affects the games outcome

[catch]

we were cheated in the Lindenwood game. We lost 10-0. We scored 5 goals that were taken back the last of which hit the back of the net and shot out. Referee one pointed at the line, referee two said I blew my whistle 8 seconds ago sorry. 4 times Lindenwood hit the post and they were credited with goals. Finally on the tenth goal they won a face off in their zone and the ref said thats good enough for me 10-0.

[hockey1]

They seem to be calling a lot more body work in the ECRHA this year then last year too. They are doing a good job of dealing with stick work.

[BEEZERAL]

The refereeing was a joke this weekend. Inconsistent calls, allowing one team to play the body while calling everything on the other. UM vs USF is a clear example. USF scored 3 power play goals while only taking 1 penalty. UM also had a clear goal taken away that would have greatly affected the outcome of the game. A huge blown call also allowed USF to escape with a tie. a USF player clearly covered the puck which is a delay of game penalty. It was never called. It should have been 3-3 at that point but because of the previous missed goal UM needed to score in the final minute to get a tie out of a game in which they clearly outplayed USF. The game was played 6-4 and it could not have been any more obvious

[alex]

I heard a lot of stories about the reffing at the WCRHL event in San Jose, players weren't happy...but this past weekend in AZ, I thought the reffing was fine. There was no 'calling all body contact' like I was told would happen. At least that was my team's experience.

[Clever Name]

I heard a lot of stories about the reffing at the WCRHL event in San Jose, players weren't happy...but this past weekend in AZ, I thought the reffing was fine. There was no 'calling all body contact' like I was told would happen. At least that was my team's experience.

that's good to hear. Can someone who played in both SJ and AZ comment on this as well.

[acorvin1]

Can someone who attended the open forum explain what I (my team) may be missing?

Where are the refs drawing the line in (a) body contact (b) stick work?

We've videotaped about half our season and when we look back at the tape there's still some trouble justifying calls that are being made.

After our first two tournaments (including pre-season) we knew penalties would be an issue, so we addressed it as a team and thought that the changes that needed to be made were made, but obviously we're still missing out on something. How many more times can you drill it into your team's head to keep sticks down? It's not like we didn't know beforehand games were being called tighter, we're making efforts to play a cleaner game. But since it's still a problem I'd really appreciate feedback from anyone that attended the forum or may be able to explain the rule changes in greater detail. Thanks.

[FAUplayer]

SECRHL reffing has been a joke... inconsistent calls, and missed goals that everyone in the entire rink are seeing except the 2 refs on the rink. Been a joke, def affects the games outcome

From my view, the best way to describe the officiating through my two event experience in the SECRHL (Savannah and Ft Myers) is that it is consistently inconsistent. We have had games where the refs did a great job calling everything that needed to be called, and there have been games where you just wonder what the refs were thinking. In regards to the refs making calls on certain goals, the ones that I have seen where they disallowed the goal were all consistent and correct in which the net was off the goal line by a decent margin. We also had a controversial call change in our first event where the opponent was clearly on top of our goalie laying inside the crease when the goal was scored with 1 second left. The ref down low called a goal, but the outside ref had a clear view of the front of the net and after a conference, reversed the call. Now the mentioned issue about the USF and UM game I was not there, but I also saw another time during the weekend where refs failed to make a call in which the player covered the puck in the crease (I scream and punch my players when they try to cover the puck in my crease, it usually works). One thing that really needs to be taken point for the referee's are the attempt to injure penalties. Too many times did I see knee-on-knee hits, in which one player would purposely stick out his knee to make contact with puck handler. This is a play that should NOT be tolerated by the league/refs, and should be met with major and misconduct penalties.

[acorvin1]

Last year: DII Bearcats through 15 games 102 PIM's
This year: DII Bearcats through 10 games 138 PIM's (including a 10 minute major)

If anyone has any suggestions on how to stop taking penalty's, I'm all ears. Otherwise looks like we're on pace to shatter an ECRHA record....not the legacy I was hoping to leave.

[PGHhockey]

The only penalty calls I thought were missed during that game were dives (three of them -- only one was glaringly obvious). But I've never seen one of those called (is there a rule addressing diving?) and I'm pretty sure the game was still scoreless when the worst one occurred, so I wouldn't expect a call in that situation anyway.


James - you guys playing under AAU/USARS rules? If so, there's no actual "diving" rule in the rulebook. I was always taught that if it's blatant, to call it as a double-minor unsportsmanlike.

But, I've watched, played, and officiated a lot of different types of hockey in my day (ice, inline, and foot) - never once have I seen a diving call in person during an amateur game. Here are the NHL numbers on diving:

2006: 109 diving penalties
2007: 114 diving penalties

And usually, there is an accompanying minor penalty along with the dive (i.e. Sidney "The Crybaby" Crosby gets hooked by Mike Richards and acts as if he were struck by an 18-wheeler. Richards gets 2 for the hook, Crosby gets 2, 4, or 10 for the dive, plus a fine).

Pardon my French, but it takes a LOT of balls to call a dive. I've never once been on the floor for a game and seen a play where I was absolutely 100% sure that it was embellished. There's always that little shadow of doubt in a ref's mind. Did their skates get a little tangled? Was there a slight humidity-borne wet spot on the rink? Did the offending player just catch him at the right moment? Tough call to make...

Just speaking my mind...any other refs feel differently about diving?

[TylerSollberger]

Bill,
All of the NCRHA uses USA inline rules, but still no real rule on diving. I'll usually worn the player if I think they take it a bit far, but like you said I rarely see it called, if ever. I officiated the game that James is talking about and there were some guys looking to get that powerplay, but we didnt want to take the game out of the teams hands. We appreciate the compliments from you as well James. When two teams are more worried about winning a hockey game than running someone through the boards, it makes our jobs a lot easier.

I cant speak on behalf of the league, nor am I going to defend every ref, but I can tell you that when your stick is parallel to the ground and impedes a players progress, we are making that call. If you get your stick in the "triangle", which is your hands to your chest, and it causes a turnover, we are making that call as well. It has been a change for all of us and just as players will make a mistake and forget to keep his stick down, a ref may make a mistake and be a little quick on calling a penalty before the outcome of the play. Hopefully we can all work together on this and get it right, because it will make our game even faster and more exciting to play. I think its important that the teams give their opinions on here. Good or bad it can help the league understand what regions seem to have issues.

Tyler Sollberger

[William Bourque]

Bill,
All of the NCRHA uses USA inline rules, but still no real rule on diving. I'll usually worn the player if I think they take it a bit far, but like you said I rarely see it called, if ever. I officiated the game that James is talking about and there were some guys looking to get that powerplay, but we didnt want to take the game out of the teams hands. We appreciate the compliments from you as well James. When two teams are more worried about winning a hockey game than running someone through the boards, it makes our jobs a lot easier.

I cant speak on behalf of the league, nor am I going to defend every ref, but I can tell you that when your stick is parallel to the ground and impedes a players progress, we are making that call. If you get your stick in the "triangle", which is your hands to your chest, and it causes a turnover, we are making that call as well. It has been a change for all of us and just as players will make a mistake and forget to keep his stick down, a ref may make a mistake and be a little quick on calling a penalty before the outcome of the play. Hopefully we can all work together on this and get it right, because it will make our game even faster and more exciting to play. I think its important that the teams give their opinions on here. Good or bad it can help the league understand what regions seem to have issues.

Tyler Sollberger

Great Post!

[William Bourque]

Last year: DII Bearcats through 15 games 102 PIM's
This year: DII Bearcats through 10 games 138 PIM's (including a 10 minute major)

If anyone has any suggestions on how to stop taking penalty's, I'm all ears. Otherwise looks like we're on pace to shatter an ECRHA record....not the legacy I was hoping to leave.

This is the breakdown of your penalties in your losses and ties. It might give you a better idea of what you need to work on.

Hooking - 11
Tripping - 10
High Stick - 7
Roughing - 6
Slashing - 3
Interference - 3
Unsportsmanlike - 4 (one misconduct)
Cross Check - 2
Holding - 2
Checking -1
Boarding - 1

[DGlass]

Just to throw it out there, Corvin.

2004-2005 Maryland Terps:
18 games - 252 PIMs
*Including TWO players with 80+

[CUDangled]

This is what I notice...
Team "A" with relatively low PIM (<4 min game) goes into a game and suddenly racks up 10-20 minutes in penalties while the team they play gets 2-4. And I am not taking about "unsportsmanlike" behavior. Hooking, roughing (body work), etc. Penalties from aggressive and physical play. How does this happen? It obviously wasn't a chippy game or BOTH teams would have high PIM. I think this happens when a team's style of play conflicts with the officials method of calling a game. In this case, who should make the adjustment? A team plays 5-10 games without an issue and then suddenly doubles or triples their PIM?

We all push the limits. We have to...that is what seperates one team from the next. We push our physical and mental limits and then we push the limits of the rules. Are we REALLY still standing outside of the face-off dot when the ref dropped the puck? Or was our forward already taking one step towards the dot as the ref dropped the puck. 1-on-1 and we play the body to take a dangler off the puck. Not a full on bodycheck, but still playing the body. Stuff like that... There is a line that when you cross it, you get a penalty. Fine, I am not argueing that. Rules are in the game for a reason. But that LINE has to be consistent, or at least as stationary as possible.

If the league/officials/USA Hockey/etc want to move that line, as they did a few years back with hooking calls, that is fine, we as players/coaches/teams will adjust. We may not like it, but we will change our game. However, we cannot adjust effectively when that line changes from minute to minute within the game or even the same hockey weekend. That is where the quality of the game suffers.

In the end, we are all paying customers of the league and the official's service. This point cannot be forgotten.

[acorvin1]

My mistake, looks like the record will stay intact...hopefully. :)


By the way, did anything change as far as how many teams make regionals in DII or is it still the the same as last year? I forgot if that was affected by the number of bids to nationals changing.




Just to throw it out there, Corvin.

2004-2005 Maryland Terps:
18 games - 252 PIMs
*Including TWO players with 80+

[iwearstripes]

Just to throw it out there, Corvin.

2004-2005 Maryland Terps:
18 games - 252 PIMs
*Including TWO players with 80+
There was a UMD vs. JMU game in 2001-2002 that had 35 mins of major penalties doled out at 1 STOPPAGE. If I recall correctly, there were over 100 PIMs between the two teams in that game alone... I think between the two teams there was like 20 games of suspensions...

As for the broader calls, its news to no one the standard is tighter than it was last year, and that's going to be an adjustment for alot of teams. Some teams seem to have adjusted to the tighter standard very quickly, others just aren't getting it. I've been shocked to see how often high sticking is called. If guys were this careless with their sticks back in the no facemask days, none of us would have any teeth left.

[4-loveofthegame]

we were cheated in the Lindenwood game. We lost 10-0. We scored 5 goals that were taken back the last of which hit the back of the net and shot out. Referee one pointed at the line, referee two said I blew my whistle 8 seconds ago sorry. 4 times Lindenwood hit the post and they were credited with goals. Finally on the tenth goal they won a face off in their zone and the ref said thats good enough for me 10-0.

I too felt cheated in the Lindenwood game, and I don't even play. Imagine, you sit down with your beverage and nachos, and by the time you get down to the good chips, you know the ones that are starting to get that just perfect mix of crunch and chewyness, the game is over. I'm out there trying to shake hands with people, slopping nacho cheese all over the place. It's just plain ridiculous... I definitely feel your pain Catch.

[William Bourque]

Just to throw it out there, Corvin.

2004-2005 Maryland Terps:
18 games - 252 PIMs
*Including TWO players with 80+

That team holds, in my records the record by a long shot...They averaged 12 minutes a game in the box over the course of 33 games for 395 PIM

[JLambertUMSL]

http://www.greatplainshockey.com/game.php?game_id=76247 -- our final game of the weekend.

This is what happens when a team that's gotten away with borderline hooks all weekend long gets into a game that's called more tightly. Five hooking penalties! (Yes, they were legitimate.)

[PGHhockey]

I too felt cheated in the Lindenwood game, and I don't even play. Imagine, you sit down with your beverage and nachos, and by the time you get down to the good chips, you know the ones that are starting to get that just perfect mix of crunch and chewyness, the game is over. I'm out there trying to shake hands with people, slopping nacho cheese all over the place. It's just plain ridiculous... I definitely feel your pain Catch.


haha classic


And Tyler, great post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Sniper26]

Just to throw it out there, Corvin.

2004-2005 Maryland Terps:
18 games - 252 PIMs
*Including TWO players with 80+

That's impressive but South Carolina has broken that mark twice. 269 last year in 20 games. But the most impressive mark of all is from 2002-2003 where they had two players above 120 pims. Mike Caudy had 145 and Justin Hayes had 128 pims in the regular season. They also were kicked out of both playoff games for at least another 20 mins. Sadly these records were lost when the ACRHA was absorbed by the SECRHL.

[gloveside]

Refs only affect the outcome of games when teams refuse to adapt to the calls being made during them..

(This isnt a direct shot at your team, btw) If you think there are too many calls, stop playing like an outdoor lacrosse team and keep your sticks on the ground, that eliminates nearly everything the refs are looking to call outright...

Also, the refs held an open forum this weekend... I know players from my team attended, and while coaching them in the games following, I noticed a marked improvement in their ability to adapt to the calls being made, as the game moved forward...
Bill, just read your post... .well written.I try to explain to my team down here in the Southeast that most of our referees are pretty solid, but, there are those Refs that see calls they make in a different light. Bottom line for my squad is that if they take an undisciplined penalty... 1. they sit by the extra goalie for the rest of that period... 2. Second undisciplined penalty they go straight to the locker room and get undressed. Three years ago that got their attention quickly and cut down PIMS to 2 or less agame. Also, we spend a lot more time on our pp. Gloveside,Western Carolina U.

[RichardGraham]

Hi Sniper26,

Ah, those guys are pikers. You're not a penalty-minute king until you have your own gold nameplate on the bench in the penalty box. ;)