USAHIL vs AAU, moved from College Nationals Thread

[Mtour71]

The Anaheim Hockey Club has relocated up the freeway to the old Corona facility. The NHL'S Anaheim Ducks are the new owners of the facility and are putting more than a million dollars into it. The rinks and scoreboards were brought from the facility in Anaheim. Every other square inch of the facility has either been redone or is in the process. To say that this is a world class facility would be an understatement. Upgrades to the Corona facility include new lighting, Air conditioning, new locker rooms, offices, flat screen TV'S and also to be added soon will be a new Pro Shop built above the locker rooms on a newly added second floor and a new snack bar with first class pizza going in. With the Anaheim Ducks getting involved with Roller Hockey in Southern California, the future in the area looks very good. By the way the new rink is now home of the Anaheim Jr. Ducks travel program (formerly the Anaheim Bulldogs) and will also be home to a new Jr. Ducks pro team that will play in the pacific division in the new AIHL. There will be more exciting news from the So. Cal area soon. Stay tuned!

I have heard great things as well....I know NCRHA is USA HOCKEY Sanctioned. Anaheim is a HUGE AAU supporter. Don't really see it happening. AAU has Anaheim on a tight leash!

[ianmackie]

http://www.edinformatics.com/inventions_inventors/Kool-AidMan.jpg

[InlineMBA]

AAU doesn't have Anaheim on a tight leash, Anaheim is a huge supporter of AAU just as the Coast to Coast rink is because they are the best thing for roller hockey and for the future of the rinks. USA Hockey does not support roller hockey, never has and never will. The NCRHA needs to get on board with AAU if they want to be a legitimate force in the sport. The October issue of USA Hockey magazine just arrived and with 64 pages of hockey there is absolutely no mention of Roller Hockey to be found. They should change the name to USA Ice Hockey. People in the Roller Hockey community need to wake up and get on board with AAU, because they are the only ones who care about our sport.

Every one is entitled to his/her opinion. Me? I've only been involved with the sport since 1999. Been to plenty of TORHS, NARCh & AAU regional qualifiers and finals (or whatever you want to call them - Nationals, J/O Olympics, or Finals) and I think moving the NCRHA to AAU would be a big mistake.

If you think USA Hockey does not support roller hockey and AAU would, I think you're mistaken. Roller Hockey is the forgotten step-child of AAU. But please, don't start with that "if Roller Hockey is ever going to be an olympic sport" stuff. Let's be real, it ain't going to happen. Then again, that's not number one on my agenda. I'd rather see more kids at the grass roots level playing roller hockey again. Also, I'd like to see the barriers come down between ice hockey and roller hockey. Maybe that's already starting to happen, but we've got a long way to go.

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

ps - only Mackie (loved the Cool-Aid though)

[alex]

NCRHA isn't a "legitimate force in the sport" because its not on board with AAU?

[InlineMBA]

Interesting read from this past summer: http://www.narch.com/NARCh_Blogs/roller_hockey_0723083476.html

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

[ianmackie]

Where is AAU's magazine?

I am affiliated with both entities and I see faults in both of them. I just don't get the Kool-Aid drinkers that are so set in their ways. It's the mentality of you're with us or you're against us. I just think that is the wrong way to look at it. We should be looking at ways to work together as opposed to working against it.

Finally, my thoughts on Pacific Cup and WIHA is this...there was one business doing the tourny's of the area, the rink owners wanted more money and took the ideas and business from the other tourny and started their own, and now we have one more good roller person out of the business. Say what you will, but I saw the main winner as NARCh last year. They sold each Cali Regional out last year because people wanted a true tournament that meant something again.

Just my two cents...carry on.

[alex]

Going along with what Ian said, maybe there's a bit of a trade off in quality there...Pacific Cup was a superior tournament series to WIHA. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, I know they've only been around one year. Maybe over time it will create its own tradition. But winning Pacific Cup meant something.

[Mtour71]

Lets not get into the USA Hockey vs. AAU debate. I have been to an AAU event and it was a JOKE. At least USA Hockey has people like NARCh, State Wars, USA Clinics, etc.. who actually care about the sport of Roller Hockey. They are actually Roller Hockey people who care about the growth and development of the sport. I think Torhs may even be on board this year? Not too sure though. The leaders of the sport are all together (NARCh, State Wars, NCRHA, PIHA, TORHS?) Those are the best events in the country with the right people involved..

Like Ian said...What magazine does AAU you have? I have never seen it? I know that AAU didn't even have their schedule made for NATIONALS until the day of the tournament. Come on guys, if they cared about the people then they would have had the schedule made weeks in advance to help out the families spending thousands of dollars to come to their event. The atmosphere at the tournament was horrendous and the reffing was even worse. Where did these guys get certified? A crackerjack box?

Let's face it if USARS never gave AAU the rights for FIRS then AAU would be nothing. If these International teams saw a NARCh event there is no question that they would never go back to AAU. It is very unorganized to say the least.

Sorry Socal just my opinion. BRING BACK PAC CUP! Class act organization!

[Mtour71]

Oh and SoCalHockey a few more things....

1. You obviously have some affiliation to the AAU group in Cali so I understand that you HAVE to stick up for them

2. Can you stop with the "big news in SO Cal hockey coming soon" sh$t no one cares. Unless you guys have found a cure for cancer no one else wants to hear it

3. I've lived most of my life in the mid west but have visited the east coast a bunch of times, don't ever brag about a pizza joint opening up at your rink. Stick to tacos or the deep fryer.

4. You say that Narch doesn't give back to the rinks yet Wiha gives so much. I don't agree. Narch gives back by offering great hockey for the past 15 years. It is a big part of the reason inline hockey has grown and Pacific Cup and Narch were responsible for growth in So Cal to begin with. Ask the guys running Anaheim and the Blades if they'd even be in the sport right now had it not been for those two groups that "don't give back".

Also you say that WIHA gives back to the rinks. They give back to themselves you idiot. So if Narch bought their own rink in So Cal and then held their own tournaments and Finals there, would that mean that all of a sudden they were giving back to the rinks? That's what wiha does in a nutshell, they kicked out Pacific Cup, stole their customers and now not only pocket the registration fees to play in the tournaments, but the keep the rink rental money too! So they make even more money ! If they were really doing the right thing they should be charging half of what is generally charged. It's all an illusion and like Mr Mackie said, you are drinking the punch.

5. You are right about USA Hockey Inline, they do nothing for inline hockey I agree. But aau is just as bad. The only difference is that they must give great kickbacks to the cali guys who bring teams to their tournaments, where at narch and other events they were treated just like everyone else.

looking forward to another ncrha season! Go lions!

[JLambertUMSL]

I am affiliated with both entities and I see faults in both of them. I just don't get the Kool-Aid drinkers that are so set in their ways. It's the mentality of you're with us or you're against us. I just think that is the wrong way to look at it. We should be looking at ways to work together as opposed to working against it.



Totally agree on kool-aid drinkers...amen!

[alex]

Hmm, NARCh seemed to do just fine when the Blades and Bulldogs left in '05.

And how is running absolute sh*t tournaments like AAU does representing or helping the sport in any way? If I were an ice hockey kid making his first foray into roller hockey and my first tournament was any AAU tournament, I'd leave with an even deeper held belief that roller hockey is a JOKE.

[InlineMBA]

If I were an ice hockey kid making his first foray into roller hockey and my first tournament was any AAU tournament, I'd leave with an even deeper held belief that roller hockey is a JOKE.

You make a pretty good point there.

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

[ianmackie]

Wait...Lambert and I cannot agree on here!

I take it all back, just bought some Kool-Aid, and I am currently gulping it down.

[topshelf]

I agree, USA Hockey does absolutely nothing for roller hockey. And I don't even like Kool Aid.

[MBurke]

Similar thread, for those who want a reference point:

http://www.inlinehockeycentral.com/forums.php?var1=http://www.inlinehockeycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=50159#post50159

My post here specifically outlines how USAHIL helps NCRHA annually:
http://www.inlinehockeycentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=50159&postcount=4

[Mtour71]

SoCal you ever think of running for office? You'd be a great replacement for Sarah Palin with the way you twist things around. Lets investigate your point here. Ok so Narch and other tournaments are wrong because when they hold a tournament all they do is pay the rink a rink rental fee and then they keep the extra money for actually doing all the work and running a great tournament. But wiha is so great because they "the rink owners" run the tournament themselves and pay THEMSELVES the rink rental fee and then the extra money earned is put back into the rink THAT THEY THEMSELVES OWN!!! Does anyone see how ridiculous that sounds and what a twist in logic. If wiha's owners "the rink owners" were such wonderful people, they would charge half of what narch charges, pay their rink rental fee and make no profit. So in the end they are NO different than the tournaments like Pacific Cup, Narch, and Topcat the only difference is the product they produce isn't nearly as good and the ones running the thing and making decisions are the ones running teams..yea that's fair!

Also you talk about aau and junior olympics like they are run so great. Lets be honest their are 4 major inline tournaments out there: narch. state wars, torhs and jo's. If you polled anyone who has been to all four or the majority of them, I guarantee they would say hands down the aau event is the poorest. I have been to the tournament and compared to the others it stinks. The owners of narch, state wars, and torhs are clearly the leaders of the sport and the ones who know what the sport is all about. You can preach aau all you want but they are clueless and deep down you know it too.

[Mtour71]

I understand what you are saying but disagree with why the rinks have closed. I do not think it is the tournaments fault that the rinks closed. Actually the real problem in So Cal and some other areas is that when inline hockey was booming everyone thought they could make a quick buck and open a rink, it was the thing to do. Eventually when the sport leveled off and it was no longer the "it" thing, rinks started struggling. There was absolutely no need for all of those rinks you named in So Cal...totally way to many. SO like anything else in life, survival of the fittest..the stronger rinks stayed and the weaker ones went under. Now the sport has kind of corrected itself. Even had Narch or PC or others payed $150/hr those rinks still would've went under. If you do want to blame PC and Narch for something you can blame them for these rinks popping up, as because of these tourneys back in the 90s the sport became so popular in So Cal and these people bought rinks and were playing off the popularity of tourneys.

[Mtour71]

You're misquoting me again. I never said that it's the tournament organizations fault that that the rinks have closed but they do not help keep them open by any means. The remaining rinks need to be creative in how they make money and how they will keep their doors open and Tournaments such as WIHA where they can make more money will at least help. I can tell you that even in the last year or so a few of our major rinks have also come close to closing their doors. And they are still not out of hot water quite yet.

I'm done with this topic as I have stated my point and you have stated yours. And remember debate is good, it keeps people informed of both sides of issues as it pertains to the sport we all love.

Socal,
Your missing the point here. I am not saying USA hockey is perfect, but your acting like AAU is the savior for roller hockey. AAU has membership fees, where is their magazine? At least USA does a little bit. I saw Jeremy Kennedy and Gary Delvecchio at Narch, Statewars, and NCRHA. Where was Keith Knoll and Barry Jackson at when Torhs and Piha was going on? Dont tell me that USA does nothing. At the very least, tell me that AAU does no better for the sport than USA and I wont think your completely insane.

You also cant tell me that the tournaments dont help the rinks. A lot of these rinks should not have been open in the first place. They were the ones trying to make a quick buck on a growing sport. When Narch has NHL players coming to regionals and that is posted on NHL.com, you dont think that helps the sport or the rinks? That brings kids from all over to the rinks. When a kid gets to watch Itan on youtube at a torhs event or when he shows the narch highlight and all the sick goals on there to a kid that doesnt play roller hockey; you dont think that helps our sport and the rinks? The rinks dont make a whole lot of money on piha, but they hope that the kids from their leagues bring their friends from school and maybe a couple really enjoy the game and sign up for a league. If all these rinks were doing as badly as you say they are, I would think they would love to have a weekend full of rink time and concessions. The kids want to see the best players in the sport and that is only possible by having Narch, Torhs, and Statewars. These tournaments bring excitement to our sport and while I'll agree they dont directly make the rinks rich, they do help build our sport. They make it so the kids have more to play for than a league t-shirt.

[alex]

Socal,
Your missing the point here. I am not saying USA hockey is perfect, but your acting like AAU is the savior for roller hockey. AAU has membership fees, where is their magazine? At least USA does a little bit. I saw Jeremy Kennedy and Gary Delvecchio at Narch, Statewars, and NCRHA. Where was Keith Knoll and Barry Jackson at when Torhs and Piha was going on? Dont tell me that USA does nothing. At the very least, tell me that AAU does no better for the sport than USA and I wont think your completely insane.

You also cant tell me that the tournaments dont help the rinks. A lot of these rinks should not have been open in the first place. They were the ones trying to make a quick buck on a growing sport. When Narch has NHL players coming to regionals and that is posted on NHL.com, you dont think that helps the sport or the rinks? That brings kids from all over to the rinks. When a kid gets to watch Itan on youtube at a torhs event or when he shows the narch highlight and all the sick goals on there to a kid that doesnt play roller hockey; you dont think that helps our sport and the rinks? The rinks dont make a whole lot of money on piha, but they hope that the kids from their leagues bring their friends from school and maybe a couple really enjoy the game and sign up for a league. If all these rinks were doing as badly as you say they are, I would think they would love to have a weekend full of rink time and concessions. The kids want to see the best players in the sport and that is only possible by having Narch, Torhs, and Statewars. These tournaments bring excitement to our sport and while I'll agree they dont directly make the rinks rich, they do help build our sport. They make it so the kids have more to play for than a league t-shirt.


Amen brotha.

[DCbullets14]

I think that part of the problem with tournaments is that there are simply to many seperate organizations. If there were say 4 companies which ran all of the tournaments (state wars, Narch, Torhs, AAU) than there would not be such an issue. The problem is that there are numerous other organizations which hold tournaments, this allows kids to play only in tournaments instead of leagues. If these kids are not playing in the leagues than the rinks are loosing a large amount of their money.

There is no questions that the elite tournaments like Narch help to legitimize the sport in the eyes of ice hockey players. I think one of the best ideas occuring in our sport is State Wars trying to create ice tournaments as well as inline. This will also help bridge the gap that has long divided the two aspects of the sport.

If we can somehow bridge the gap between ice and inline than I think that USAHIL could do amazing things to build inline hockey back up. I believe that with inline hockeys current situation AAU does more for the sport. I do not believe that AAU runs the best tournaments or is the most organized but I do feel like AAU seems to have a legitimate interest in the sport whereas USAHIL is there because of the potential profit that can be made.

[Daryn Goodwin]

Socalhockey, who are you? Why the need to hide behind a screen name? I’ve been part of the inline scene in Cali since ’91 when it was only wooden and roll-on floors, then saw the rise in rinks, only to see most fail.

The only people that I can think of that have been around since the mid 90’s are either people making a living in the industry or kids that have grown up that are playing adult hockey. I guess there are also a few parents that have siblings very spread out. My point is, don’t say that you’re not taking a side here when you clearly have and are hiding behind a screen name.

Listen, this propaganda is just that, propaganda. NARCh is a national tournament series (actually international) that leads up to one main event. Even if I wanted to rent rink time from a rink, it would be one weekend per year. That’s 1 out of 52! For 4 years there’s been a movement to try to put NARCh out of business and it’s failed miserably. If that much effort were put into getting new kids in the sport, the sport would surely be better off.

Each rink that you mentioned that failed I’ve personally spent hours and hours in, so I knew them well. Some rink owners sold because it made good business sense. Land value went through a huge increase and it just made sense for them to sell and take the money rather than struggle with a business that is not as profitable. Do you hold it against them because they took something away from kids to make money? I don’t. I understand business and applaud them for taking the risk in the first place.

Do the simple math. You can only run hockey after school and weekends. That’s basically 9-10 hours per day plus weekends. You charge too much you’re pricing kids out of the sport. With increasing land value, even if you are full all the time it’s a very tough business to be in. Look around. Most of the rinks that are still in business in So Cal are city land leases, like 949. It’s the nature of the beast, absolutely zero to do with my one weekend a year and the NARCh Finals.

To somehow insist that NARCh has done anything but help rinks is just stupid. When a NARCh tournament happens, the rink is full from 6am to after midnight, there’s increased concessions and vending, increased pro shop sales, etc. To compare, it’s like a venue owner booking the Rolling Stones and seeing how much money it brought in, then decide he’s just going to sing at the next concert himself instead and keep all the money.

To oversimplify, for a rink (and the sport for that matter), to be successful it needs to do 3 things well. 1) Get new people in the sport. 2) Run a successful house league 3) Provide an opportunity for people to compete at a higher level beyond house league. NARCh take care of #3. When people play NARCh, they go home after the event and practice harder to get ready to come compete again and tell people how fun it was. Who’s this good for exactly? Well, it’s good for NARCh and it’s good for the sport, IE, the rinks they play out of! Rather than try to take over #3 when they don’t take care of #1 and #2 right is just not that smart or efficient.

Even though I don’t know the details, I’m excited to see the Ducks team up with Anaheim. I went to 5 Ducks Games last year and didn’t see one way in which this partnership is helping inline hockey. Where’s the cool videos on the big screen, sign up table in the concourse, dasherboards, adds in program? Maybe all of this stuff is coming? I hope so.

I have a relationship with the NHL and one of my goals was to connect the NHL teams to the local rinks to cross promote our sport. Unfortunately it’s proven harder than I thought for two reasons. Clubs are most concerned with ticket sales and most rink directors are not hungry enough to put in the time and effort it takes to get this done.

Your statement about the Blades and Bulldogs meaning so much to NARCh is just arrogant. People around the rest of the country are just laughing and just view that comment as another Cali egomaniac. These are certainly quality clubs that have won more than their share of NARCh Titles, but they’re invited to the party, not the hosts of the party. There’s a reason many of those players find their way to other rosters when they’ve been told they can’t go.

Lastly, I could write a 50-page document on AAU and USAHIL. I actually like Keith and have had mostly pleasant conversations with him. The problem is, Keith doesn’t control everyone involved in AAU. The manipulative style in which they operate (just like yours) is what I despise. USA Hockey has a different set of issues and the battle for credit to inline is one that I’ve made a crusade of for the last 5 years. I figure if I don’t bring things to their attention, who is? They have the most to lose with me, financially speaking, so they should listen. I will say that they’ve done some things, but not enough for my liking. It’s more often then not that I walk into an ice rink and get pissed off about someone’s stupid comment about roller hockey, usually by a coach that can’t stand up himself.

So, who are you socalhockey?

You want to find solutions rather than attempt to put me out of business, give me a call.

[topshelf]

Everyone has differences of opinions and it sounds like both sides have legitimate arguments. And as always money plays a big part in all of this. I agree with So. Cal that the rinks need to make money or more will be gone. That is a legitimate point. And I also agree with the point that having an NHL team involved in Roller Hockey is a great move in the right direction for the sport.

[ianmackie]

Wow. That was pretty much to the point...

[DannyG]

Please allow me to be blunt...

If it were not for Daryn G., Gary DelV, Jeremy Kennedy, and others within the USAHIL and NARCh family, roller hockey would not exist today in any organized form...Without their work in developing this sport, since the late eighties and early nineties, there would have been nothing for AAU to "take over." The only entity that was around in that era was USACRS, the precursor to USA Roller Sports. Neither USACRS nor USARS have done anything to further the development of the sport. They (and AAU really went at this) have simply come along after NARCh and USAHIL and tried to duplicate what NARCh/USAHIL have developed...they undercut prices, offered an inferior product, but where lowest price was the consumer factor, they "won."

"AAU's membership is only $14 per year, USAHIL's is $25...I'm going with AAU."

That was the thing I heard all over. Absoulutely no thought about what you were supporting.

I have the 1987 training manuals from USACRS. We should maybe have stuck to field hockey sticks?

Anybody have anything bad to say about NARCh and USAHIL really ought to learn what they are talking about. It's late now, and I am ranting...sorry, but you guys have really p.o.'d me on this one...

Thank's for letting me vent.

-DannyG

[MDE3]

As Daryn so well desribed the three facets of inline development, there is no need to re-hash the concepts....

However what about extending the purvue of these major tournament series to the setting up of house leagues. At least Narch and Tohrs..where there is a definition given to house teams and a series of mini regional interhouse league tournaments. Maybe just called "The Tournament Series". Creating an identity of course is one of the keys, and controlling the rosters so the teams are truly in house teams, not pseudo loaded travel teams. No players can be on the rosters unless they have participated in at least 80% of the inhouse games.

I realize this is not a small task, but with a good formula it does not have to be too difficult, and could be moderately profitable. In the long run if it achieves it's goals of increasing the grass roots base of players..it will become inherently profitable..possibly at a different level though

Let us suppose that the top two teams from any given house league are automatically qualified to participate in a regional tournament. So the intensity of the in house competiton is raised with an added goal... In addition a training manual would be sold to the rinks/coaches and players/parents, which serves as a guide to real skill development..all included in the initial (and reasonable) fee package.

While the cost of extending this kind of package may slightly increase the initial cost of joining a program, my experience has always been that parents do not mind shilling out, where the rewards of their investments are truly tangible, and a vast improvement over the status quo...assuming of course that it will be.

The credibility factor imparted to the series would come from it's association with the major tournament series organizers...who would perhaps agree to act bilaterally to develop the concept. The political implications would certainly create some positive impact.

[alex]

...his long post...

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u39/italiancoffeelover/boxing_punch.jpg