An Anonymous Post Worth Posting

[RichardGraham]

Hi Folks,

This is a post I have been asked to put on site anonymously. I think it contains some sentiments we can agree with and some suggestions that are worthy of debate. And though many of the sentiments mirror mine, I did not write it.

***

Inline Hockey a sport I have come to know and love through playing and coaching. Gentleman as I write this I am in much disarray and soured to great length with the ways of our sport. We need to get back to the basics and show the sport we all love so much the love that it needs.

At the present time the tournament series are falling apart and having lower numbers day by day. House leagues are shrinking as the number of 8 and unders showing up in the sport is dwindling. Yet we as the adults and the leaders of the sport continue to fight over the greed and control. There is no true leader in the sport between USA Inline and AAU. They are fighting over being the insurance providers for rinks and tournaments like a money pit that will eventually dissolve. All hope of having them unite like we have wished over the years is just keeping them farther apart as they take turns sanctioning certain tournaments and leagues. The people who suffer from this are the players.

In the adult world of this sport there has been a line drawn in the sand recently with PIHA and the AIHL. Some want to have their say and tarnish people’s reputations while others sit in the shadows waiting to show their alignment. As a group of dedicated players we all need to find a happy medium and just play hockey. Isn’t that what we all want to do?

On the business side of things rinks are closing all the time and why because they can not grow any youth business. When you Google inline hockey the first website you find is IHC. If I were a parent looking in from the outside and clicked on the pro forum I would be disgusted with all the arguing and bickering. Not only does this not help us grow the sport but it actually turns potential players away as the parents do not want their children exposed to any negativity. There are enough problems in today’s society that we all need to grow up and work for the benefit of the sport.

Facilities need to find a way to get more new players into the game and keep them. Maybe it would be simple to discount the fee for the first season a child plays. Remember some business is better than none! Hopefully the big companies who are inline hockey suppliers will cut their profit margins to give the maximum benefit to the players. Remember, if you can sell 50 sticks for $200.00 you make $10,000.00 but if you cut your profit margin down and sell 100 sticks for $175.00 you make $17,500.00 plus you have doubled what you sold in your inventory. We all know that more product out there means more future sales due to the free advertisement.

All of us need to remember what Whitney Houston said, “I believe the children are our future, teach them well, and let them lead the way.”

A list of simple solutions:

1. Adults stop bickering and let as many travel leagues exist. Eventually setup so that you can crossover for one ultimate champion.

2. Tournaments discount your team rates. You pay rinks bare bones money for the hours you use because you know they are going to be closed those weekends without you. Cut your profit margin and give back to the sport.

3. Facilities give away rink time to these young kids and offer discounts for the first season they play.

4. Hockey companies cut your profit margins and make our sport easily affordable

5. Youth, Youth, Youth.... I can’t say it anymore

6. Stop all the greed and let’s go do what we all do best: play hockey

These are just the thoughts of a little person in the world of inline hockey. I don’t want to see it die but I fear it is the road we are heading towards.

Signed,

A Friend to Inline Hockey

***

[Ronnie Williams]

I agree totally with the anonymous post and it is eeriely the same subject that was discussed in a meeting two weekends ago that was held at the SGAA Dual Deck Arena (Snellville, GA) that the following organizations attended: ECHO, 2HOT4ICE, Coastal Cup, TORHS and USA HIL.

This was the reason we met - "To create an environment for the continual development of inline teams throughout all age groups. It will be an ongoing process enabling players to play and get better & grow the sport of inline hockey by starting at the lower ages and laying the ground work for future programs to get more children interested in the sport. We are here to take this sport to the next level or watch it die on the vine."


- If the rink owners and the tournament directors do not start working together this sport will fall. The oganizations that attended this meeting agreed to do the below this upcoming 2008-2009 at least at the SGAA Dual Deck Arena here in Snellville, GA.

- Take 2 hours out of every tournament to have coaching clinics to introduce coaches to new strategies and coaching techniques to their players.

- The tournament series should work together in scheduling tournaments in areas of the Southeast, don’t stack them on top of each other.

- Push the growth of the younger groups to play inline hockey.

- Reduce the price of entry fees when entering tournament series multiple times.

Sincerely,
Ronnie Williams
SGAA Dual Deck Arena - Director of Operations
www.sgaasports.com

[rhhof]

Thats interesting you mention a meeting down there Ronnie....

Apparently, there are a lot of things in the works for our sport this year...Its all behind the scenes right now and Im hearing SO MANY great things about businesses getting together (not just the above)....

Im getting back into the mix and I love it - this could be the start of something...people working together is a great thing and great minds are thinking in the right direction, together.....

[ACCCT2]

Facilities need to find a way to get more new players into the game and keep them. Maybe it would be simple to discount the fee for the first season a child plays.

Remember some business is better than none! Hopefully the big companies who are inline hockey suppliers will cut their profit margins to give the maximum benefit to the players.


While I understand the sentiment, this is the only part of this letter worthy of practical business principles -- C'mon:




All of us need to remember what Whitney Houston said, “I believe the children are our future, teach them well, and let them lead the way.”

A list of simple solutions:

1. Adults stop bickering and let as many travel leagues exist. Eventually setup so that you can crossover for one ultimate champion.

2. Tournaments discount your team rates. You pay rinks bare bones money for the hours you use because you know they are going to be closed those weekends without you. Cut your profit margin and give back to the sport.

3. Facilities give away rink time to these young kids and offer discounts for the first season they play.

4. Hockey companies cut your profit margins and make our sport easily affordable

5. Youth, Youth, Youth.... I can’t say it anymore

6. Stop all the greed and let’s go do what we all do best: play hockey

You're surely jesting if you think that anyone in the "business" of inline hockey is going to further "cut" their already thin "margins" (which is a very unfortunate fact in the entire ice and inline hockey "business") just to make it cheaper at the point of sale. Let me put it this way -- if you're a professional, salaried or hourly employed worker are you going to willingly "cut" your "margins", wages or pay simply in order to make it possible for more people to take advantage of whatever it is you offer or produce? Are you willing to work harder...for more people...for less money...??? Hmmm, I think not, eh. "ROI" clearly rules here, dudes.

In fact, the real problems (and "simple solutions") that both ice and inline hockey face are not related to equipment prices, as proportionately speaking, in comparison with what most gear cost 10, 20 years ago, it's actually cheaper in terms of relative economies (and even more so when adjusted for inflation).

Actually, in terms of what ails the inline hockey "business", well, let's just start with way too many meaningless championships...way too many meaningless divisons, sub-divisions and so-called "qualifiers"...and GEEZ, way, way, way too many medals (when everyone 'wins', well then "winning" is really meaningless now isn't it?* Even the littlest of kids understand this logic so why don't the grown-ups?)...incompetent and uncaring, carping and carpet-bagging NGB's...no sponsor support of (let alone initiatives towards) a truly "paid-to-play/elite" level league -- ALL of these things are the real scourges and scoundrels of what and why the sport's image and marketability is so pathetic -- which ultimately is so sad, 'cuz the sport has so much natural potential in virtually every way that matters if only it were properly positioned, supported and marketed.:(

And lastly, quite frankly I have serious problems with having a Whitney Houston song lyric (of ALL things UN-hockey-ish!:eek:) being trotted out as any kind of guide for the growth of hockey...!?!

*: Hmmm, I wonder how long sponsors and the fanbase of, let's say golf, would hang around if along with say, Tiger Woods (or whomever that year's "champion" might be), almost everyone who made the "cut" at say, the Masters, was also given a "medal" for 'winning' their 'age' or 'ability' (or "sandbagged"?) "division"...???

[KROMMER23]

I really dont like to get on here much because most of the time its just drama, and bickering, like some of you have mentioned. but i believe there really is a problem with the way the sport is developing. there does need to be more organization at the top, its insane how many different businesses are trying to feed off of the diminishing few who still play.

i agree it is asking alot to reduce margins in an already extremely competative market, but something does need to give and who will it be?

to grow it right it will take time and leaders at the top willing to let it happen on its own. The only jump start would be to get the sport some immediate mainstream exposure. because who outside of us really knows or cares about inline hockey. (is that with a ball? on rollerblades right?)

ohh and the pro's hahaha. your not a pro. you just a good hockey player whos being selfish. if the players who are trying so desparately to call themselves pro would spend half of that energy helping the sport grow for tomorrow we would already be doing better.

[topshelf]

Look how divided our country is at the national level. Democrats and Republicans are always bickering and blaming the other for the countries problems. With that being said, do you really think that the problems in Roller Hockey would be any different? This country has been split for many years and will continue to be that way for many more to come. It's called power, those who have it want to keep it and those that don't want to acquire it. We the people need to change the Government and we the players and rink owners need to change the way Roller Hockey is being run, and until then nothing will change. The rinks need to be supported and must be the ones with the power not the tournament organizations. If the rinks nationwide keep closing or losing money the tournament organizations will have no where to go. The rink owners are the ones that are taking the chances and investing in the future of the sport not the Tournament people. What chances are the tournament people taking and how are they investing in the future of the sport? I have read many posts on here where people have asked where all the money PIHA charges has gone, but I have never once heard anyone ask the same question about NARCH. There were 400 or so teams this year at the finals that paid $900.00 per team. That is a total of around $360,000,00. Why is no one asking where all that money is going? Is it going back into the sport? How much of that money did the facility make, or are they just paid a rink rental? I know there are costs involved like referees, trophy's etc. But how much of that money is going into someones pocket. I know that some will say that it's a business and businesses deserve to make money, but If the rinks aren't making it and individuals that have no investment in the sport are then how will the sport grow and be strong? I say it can't and won't if this does not change.

[RichardGraham]

Hi Folks,

Some of you will notice that a few posts in this thread have been deleted. Though they might have been funny or cute or clever, they weren't on topic. This issue is too important to lose focus.

[Falcons77]

I think we can all agree on this........OUR SPORT IS DYING! Unless we all get involved in some way with the youth, it will eventually end because no facilities will stay open with so little number of teams. I know many sportsplex type facilities could fill up with soccer or lacrosse in minutes, but they keep saving time for us. Something needs to be done by all of us, at our LOCAL levels.

[DannyG]

I operated the usual daytime sports camps at my facility this summer, 11 weeks in our area school districts. The morning camps were multiple team sports activities, the afternoon camps -all 11 weeks of 'em- were specifically inline hockey. I thought I'd have about half the afternoon players of the morning. I was wrong, there was more afternoon participation in nine of the weeks than the morning.

The secret to restoring the sport is to offer it to the public. The game will then sell itself. And keep it recreation. I am appalled at the mere mention of "travel" and "tournament" hockey in a supposed cry to grow the sport.

Both travel and tournament hockey cause kids to discontinue play over the years, for the variety of reasons that have been discussd on this forum for the past six years or so.

Local, recreation (for fun, remember) inline hockey play is how to get kids hooked, and how to keep 'em hooked, on inline hockey. Everybody get to your local rink and volunteer to help work with kids to make clubs, leagues, and other inline hockey activities happen...and then they will.

We even have an under-6 program at Xtreet Sports...4, 5, and 6 year olds want to play, if only they have a place.

Everybody please share what they have found that works on this forum. Please accept a big "Thanks!" to everybody that is helping the sport in this way. What you are doing is very important, perhaps the most important thing.

-DannyG

[VanDangle]

I know how this guy feels. I grew up with a whole squad of kids who played. Now I ref. games and there's less and less kids day by day. I think some of this stems from being judged by ice players because it's not "real" hockey. Me and my friends took a lot of **** for playing roller until those kids finally realized that we played ice as well and we really weren't that different.

[RichardGraham]

Hi VanDangle,

Many of the guys I play ice hockey with still make fun of inline hockey. What they don't know (or won't admit) is that there is the long list of great ice hockey players who have played inline hockey; that many inline hockey players can out-stickhandle them by zip codes; and that many players with inline hockey backgrounds have made it and are making it in the National Hockey League.

It's a matter of ignorance, and it ain't on the inline hockey side...

[RichardGraham]

Hi ACCCT2,

You have many good ideas for our sport... and many I'd disagree with vociferously. I think it's time that you step up, come out of the shadows, and declare who you are to Inline Hockey Central's readers, both for the credibility of this site, and for the sake of your own reputation. (And I'm not singling you out on this issue -- I believe the same goes for most of the other anonymous posters on this site. Step up, people! Life's too short to hide behind a clever user name. Stand up for what you believe! At this time in the history of our sport, it may actually mean the difference between inline hockey surviving and dying. I once -- foolishly -- thought that Roller Hockey International would last forever. If we don't work together, now, who knows what else may disappear?)

As an anonymous poster, you are suspect right off the bat, because you (apparently) don't have enough courage of your convictions to put your name on your posts.

I think this will reflect to your detriment in the long run, as people will eventually find out who you are, look at all of your posts in the past, and make their own determination as to why you remained anonymous when others put their names on the line to defend their arguments. Like anyone, some of your arguments are worthy, and some are crap. No one is perfect. Accept that and join all of us who are not in the shadows, and help our great sport grow.

In your argument against the current anonymous post we're discussing (the definition of irony?), you say that there are too many meaningless "championships" and awards. Is the meaning of sport solely about winning, or having a great time and learning life lessons while we play? Surely you know that there are many "winning" athletes who are losers in "life"?

There's lots more to discuss, but I don't see the point of having a discussion on this site that I've put so much sweat and tears into with someone who posts anonymously. Many of the people that you have disparaged in your posts have done wonderful things to promote our great sport, whether it's putting on tournaments, coaching clinics, referee's clinics, world championships, etc. I don't agree with everything they've done; in fact, I'm very depressed about the parallel tracks that the USARS-AAU/USAHIL have been on for so many years. Maybe I haven't done enough to smack those folks upside the head and tell them GET IT TOGETHER. But why should they listen to you, someone who doesn't have enough courage of their convictions to step out from incognito mode?

[ACCCT2]

Hi ACCCT2,

You have many good ideas for our sport... and many I'd disagree with vociferously. I think it's time that you step up, come out of the shadows, and declare who you are to Inline Hockey Central's readers, both for the credibility of this site, and for the sake of your own reputation. (And I'm not singling you out on this issue -- I believe the same goes for most of the other anonymous posters on this site. Step up, people! Life's too short to hide behind a clever user name. Stand up for what you believe! At this time in the history of our sport, it may actually mean the difference between inline hockey surviving and dying. I once -- foolishly -- thought that Roller Hockey International would last forever. If we don't work together, now, who knows what else may disappear?)

While I respect your request (and I'm awed that simply by revealing my real name it will somehow help in the saving of "our great sport"), I have to decline. Free speech and how we each choose to 'speak' (short of yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater of course) is a choice. I realize of course, you have the right to delete my "anonymous" posts under what is apparently going to be a new IHC posting policy, but I guess I will have to then control my urges and opt out of any further discussions (hence, you lose at least my voice, ideas and input, good, bad or whatever, in the process). I think you know that in all of my posts I have always been civil (even when being sarcastic) and I've never simply raked someone for the mere intellectual sport of it. In my conversations with you over the phone I've tried to convey the reasoning of my positions and the particulars of my puck-pushing passions and endeavors, as I truly believe that IHC is an absolutely vital and essential lifeline for keeping "our great sport" alive on the life-support it unfortunately presently needs until we all "GET IT TOGETHER" and "do it" right -- hmmm, to coin the corporate catch-phrase of the single largest sports marketing company in the world, Nike, who bought-into "our great sport" with an almost unprecented purchase of Bauer/Cooper in the mid-90's (at 50% over market value) simply based on what the inline game represented in terms of potential growth. Unfortunately, "we" all allowed the NGB's to take "our great sport" hostage and bicker and bleed and starve it (and "us"?) to death over the Olympic sanctioning (and $pon$or$hip) rights...and Nike, after far too long of seeing no responsible action, no truly meaningful "championships" and no more even short term potential, opted-out and sold at a humongous loss. Hmmm, I'd say VERY, VERY BAD "non-call" by virtually all of "us" for allowing the NGB's to take control and stewardship of "our great sport" don't you think? But as I still choose to remain (only "namewise", BTW) "in the shadows", I guess I won't be allowed to express these rather pertinent points based upon the new IHC policy.



As an anonymous poster, you are suspect right off the bat, because you (apparently) don't have enough courage of your convictions to put your name on your posts.

I think this will reflect to your detriment in the long run, as people will eventually find out who you are, look at all of your posts in the past, and make their own determination as to why you remained anonymous when others put their names on the line to defend their arguments. Like anyone, some of your arguments are worthy, and some are crap. No one is perfect. Accept that and join all of us who are not in the shadows, and help our great sport grow.

I very respectfully disagree with you regarding my own personal and professional reasons for choosing to be "in the shadows", as I believe that I can more than do my own chosen part in helping "our great sport grow" via my own chosen ("in the shadows"?) way. And I can absolutely assure you that my "in the shadows" style has 'virtually' nothing whatsoever to do with "courage", either of my "convictions" or otherwise.



In your argument against the current anonymous post we're discussing (the definition of irony?), you say that there are too many meaningless "championships" and awards. Is the meaning of sport solely about winning, or having a great time and learning life lessons while we play? Surely you know that there are many "winning" athletes who are losers in "life"?

My argument is definitely not about the spirit of "winning", as for many players and teams simply being able to get to a tournament like, say NARCh, is an accomplishment in itself. And I applaud the idea of making kids feel like "winners" for putting forth their best efforts in anything that they endeavor. But even kids know that when everyone, or in say, NARCh's case, 80-some out of 300-some teams have 'won' a medal, how meaningful or precious is "winning" that "medal" really? Honestly, this is the wrong lesson, reward and message to take home about what constitutes true "championship" accomplishment and aspiring for something initmated and marketed and most importantly, 'sold' as something special and exclusive. I'm sorry, but IMO it sends the wrong signals, as well as sets the wrong standards about what a "champion" (in sports or life) is supposed to both represent and actually be. In my mind there are very few exceptions to this rule (Special Olympics being the most obviously important), as when you 'award' everyone for merely being in a thin (or 'thinned') field, that "championship" means absolutely nothing to the advertisers, sponsors and marketers who expect that their sponsorship and branding/logo efforts are associated with an "exclusive" and one of a kind "winner" (like say, a Tiger Woods). The popularity of every major sport goes through up and down cycles of 'hipness' and 'boring-beyond-belief' (especially ala tennis, baseball, basketball and even golf, as until Tiger Woods "arrived", with Nicklaus, Palmer and Watson all gone from the front line circuit, golf was all but dead network wise until he came along and revived the sport's image and appeal). What successfully run sports like American football and European futbol so carefully and expertly "do" (through companies like Nike working hand in hand with each of their premier professional leagues) is that they identify unique and marketable trends and personalities that can 'sell' their sport to the masses (and hence, big-time sponsors, advertisers and marketers). But if everyone was positioned as "Super" as a Peyton Manning, if everyone were to be as "one of a kind bent" as David Beckham, if everyone in any sport was easily able to don the title of "champion" (as they are in our's) it would be virtually meaningless to not only the sponsors, but to the paying audience and fanbase as well. So, IMO, unless I've missed something and say, a NARCh-type tournament for example, does indeed have a "Special Olympics" type of objective and agenda for the sport (beyond their simply being a money-making "business"), then that should tell you all you need to know about why "our great sport" goes nowhere and gets no face-time with big-time sponsors, advertisers and marketers (the real "juice" behind successful sports leagues everywhere).



There's lots more to discuss, but I don't see the point of having a discussion on this site that I've put so much sweat and tears into with someone who posts anonymously. Many of the people that you have disparaged in your posts have done wonderful things to promote our great sport, whether it's putting on tournaments, coaching clinics, referee's clinics, world championships, etc. I don't agree with everything they've done; in fact, I'm very depressed about the parallel tracks that the USARS-AAU/USAHIL have been on for so many years. Maybe I haven't done enough to smack those folks upside the head and tell them GET IT TOGETHER. But why should they listen to you, someone who doesn't have enough courage of their convictions to step out from incognito mode?

I agree with 'virtually' everything you've put forth here, Richard -- everything except my right to "speak" in my own chosen 'voice' and 'moniker'. If this is to be a final decision on your part, then aside from our occasional phone conversations, I guess I'll just have to relegate myself to "observer" status "in the shadows" -- which will probably and inevitably make a lot of your (more "legitimate" and "courageous"?) IHC posters very happy, eh...!?!;)

[KROMMER23]

Thank you Richard!! ACCCT2 your move....some of what you say is great but most of the time you sound like some elitist whos too good for everyone. if your too good and too anonymous why do you even waste your time on this website? the rest of us care.

IF YOU AT LEAST OFFER SOME INFORMATION AS TO WHAT MAKES YOU HUMAN, THEN PEOPLE WOULDNT DISLIKE YOU SO MUCH. BECAUSE ALL YOU DO IS IMPRESSIVLY DEBATE ISSUES BUT OFFER NO PROOF OF YOUR EXPERICENCE. FOR ALL WE KNOW YOU JUST SIT AROUND ON THE INTERNET ALL THE TIME AND THINK THIS STUFF UP, WHICH IS SAD. NO ONE IS SAYING ITS NOT IMPORTANT OR A GOOD POINT OF VIEW, YOU FREQUENTLY HAVE EXCELLENT POINTS BUT TO BE HONEST ALOT OF THE TIME YOU COME OFF SOUNDING LIKE A CREEP SITTING IN A CHAIR IN HIS UNDERWEAR.

(if you at least confessed that you run a wildly successful league somewhere in Canada and you do sit in a chair all the time writing to the benefit of the sport than everyone would be like OH ...well OK... fair enough)

Back to the point of this thread... about helping the sport.

as most of us know the sport sells itself, it is fun and addictive. the biggest problem i see is getting people to check into it. i mean were not trying to convert ice players to inline (it would be good, but not our priority) were trying to captivate the millions of kids who play other sports, or who would love to play hockey but are intimidated by the ice and the hitting. these kids are the ones who dont even know our sport exists. and why??
because
A) how much extra advertising dollars do typical rink owners really have to spend on mailers or tv advertisements to draw in people to their rink? none or not enough.
B) How many rinks have you been to that are in a warehouse building tucked around in an industrial area, or well off the beaten path. in a very dull plain looking building.

In the major parts of the country where roller hockey is still very big, its become ok to have a rink sheltered & tucked behind the corner of town. But in parts where its failing, or non-exsistant rinks owners can't pay people to find their building come inside and give it a chance.

What i think the sport really needs is more exposure at the local grass roots level. The rink i started playing at was built at an entertainment center with a huge arcade, batting cages, go-carts and mini-golf. It was semi-outdoors so anyone who came to the center walked past it.

I cant even explain how fast the league filled up.
"Build it and they will come". DOES NOT WORK

"build it right in front of everyones face and they will come".WILL WORK!

think about it
if you could build a semi-covered rink in the middle of a nice public park and had someone who could run a great league it would be golden.
or you could build a really great billion dollar facility (exagerating) in the back of a commercial district and know one will ever know its there.

its a tough sell to get public parks to go with it, and its a tough buy, to build in high traffic, high dollar lease areas. But the exposure is the biggest think our sport lacks.

btw richard i think he should be allowed to continue on this site. yet we all want to know that theres a little meat on his bones.

[ACCCT2]

as most of us know the sport sells itself, it is fun and addictive. the biggest problem i see is getting people to check into it. i mean were not trying to convert ice players to inline (it would be good, but not our priority) were trying to captivate the millions of kids who play other sports, or who would love to play hockey but are intimidated by the ice and the hitting. these kids are the ones who dont even know our sport exists. and why??
because
A) how much extra advertising dollars do typical rink owners really have to spend on mailers or tv advertisements to draw in people to their rink? none or not enough.
B) How many rinks have you been to that are in a warehouse building tucked around in an industrial area, or well off the beaten path. in a very dull plain looking building.

In the major parts of the country where roller hockey is still very big, its become ok to have a rink sheltered & tucked behind the corner of town. But in parts where its failing, or non-exsistant rinks owners can't pay people to find their building come inside and give it a chance.

What i think the sport really needs is more exposure at the local grass roots level. The rink i started playing at was built at an entertainment center with a huge arcade, batting cages, go-carts and mini-golf. It was semi-outdoors so anyone who came to the center walked past it.

I cant even explain how fast the league filled up.
"Build it and they will come". DOES NOT WORK

"build it right in front of everyones face and they will come".WILL WORK!

think about it
if you could build a semi-covered rink in the middle of a nice public park and had someone who could run a great league it would be golden.
or you could build a really great billion dollar facility (exagerating) in the back of a commercial district and know one will ever know its there.

its a tough sell to get public parks to go with it, and its a tough buy, to build in high traffic, high dollar lease areas. But the exposure is the biggest think our sport lacks.

btw richard i think he should be allowed to continue on this site. yet we all want to know that theres a little meat on his bones.

Hmmm, "elitist" snob that I apparently am, I hope that "KROMMER23" won't be offended if I say that I actually agree with him -- that this is one of the greatest problems with the game: "in your face" exposure is noticably lacking in the facilities where "our great sport" is presently being played. Personally, I feel that one of the important areas where the sport has gone wrong is in its hell-bent obsession with taking itself almost exclusively "indoors" (and off of the street) organizationally and league-wise. And with no offense intended towards the hard working and dedicated owners of the indoor facilities themselves, but short of an Odeum-like arena, most of these "indoor" venues aren't "in your face" facilities even remotely capable of attracting "passerby" attention, much less having the polish and presentation to properly present a "pro/elite" league that big-time sponsors, advertisers and marketers would support.

The BEST games I myself have played in or watched involved outdoor, under the blue skies and "eyes-of-God" ambiance -- GEEZ, just imagine a "pro/elite" league being located on a beautiful city or town plaza, on a beach or mall concourse -- this is what would attract the sposors, advertisers, marketers and "PR" that the game desperately needs (right Dave?;))...

[longboarderj]

I agree with most of what is being said here, and I believe that success of the sport is in the hands of the rink owners and their ability to retain young players. I had very little experience in inline hockey as I grew up playing ice hockey. Now, in the last three years I have played, officiated, and coached both ice and inline, but in the last year my son and I have switched over to inline hockey. This happened because the owner of our rink has his act together. When my son was four he decided that he wanted to start playing hockey (like dad) so we went to L.A. hockey club where I had helped coach a year before and did their learn to skate class for $300. At six he wanted to play again so I looked on line and remembered that Gretzky had a roller hockey rink in Irvine. I found it as California roller hockey center. It was advertising a deal that I had never heard of in hockey- $150 got us a year of the beginning players class, all of the equipment, and a one year rink membership. This was great for the first two weeks. The coach found out that I have played ice my whole life and asked if I would volunteer to help him, and I did. Then the paid coach started to become unreliable, he stopped coming to the clinics, leaving me with 20-30 kids. He would show up to open the gates then tell me he could not stay. We started to lose kids, other dad's tried to help me, but they had no experience in hockey and could barely skate. I addressed the rink owner and his response was that I could handle it. I found out a week later that he had sold the rink and that as of January 1st of that year the new ownership would take over. I decided that we would wait it out and give them a chance (we were ready to throw in the towel).
when they reopened as the 949 Roller Hockey Center we got our first atom league that was barely four teams of six kids, our last spring season the team I coached had 12 kids and we had three other teams with 11 kids. This next season we hope to have 6 teams of eight kids.
I give this long winded story to show the turn around that a dedicated owner can bring. Eddie Limbaga and the guys at 949 Roller Hockey Center are doing a first class job, and are the reason my son and I are only playing roller. We have a friend who left 949 to play at a rink on the other side of orange county and he says that he is going to come back because Eddie's program is run more to his liking that the program he is currently in. I believe the owners make all of the difference.

Jeff Morgan

[kevinsmithAZ]

Something's wrong when adults can't sign their names next to posts, yet me and AJ Barnett at 15 years old aren't afraid to let the whole inline hockey community know who we are and how we feel on certain topics.

Kevin Smith

[Doug Jones]

Jeff:

I had posted a long winded post but have decided to remove it.

I am glad Eddie Limbaga is thriving in Irvine, he is a great person and I wish him nothing but success.

Irvine could not succeed under the ownership I had to work for from 2003 - 2006. As I have said many times, the best thing that could happened was new management and ownership. In being there 11 years, it was time to move on and let someone who had the drive, dedication and enthusiasm step in to revitalize the facility. Eddie was just that person and I have no problem giving him credit for the success of it and it's turnaround.

Best to you and your son and I hope he continues to play and rather than be defensive like my original post was, I am sorry you felt you had a bad experience during your participation there before the new management in January 0f 2007.

Doug Jones

[Alvare71]

Hmmm, "elitist" snob that I apparently am, I hope that "KROMMER23" won't be offended if I say that I actually agree with him -- that this is one of the greatest problems with the game: "in your face" exposure is noticably lacking in the facilities where "our great sport" is presently being played. Personally, I feel that one of the important areas where the sport has gone wrong is in its hell-bent obsession with taking itself almost exclusively "indoors" (and off of the street) organization and league-wise. And with no offense intended towards the hard working and dedicated owners of the indoor facilities themselves, but short of an Odeum-like arena, most of these "indoor" venues aren't "in your face" facilities even remotely capable of attracting "passerby" attention, much less having the polish and presentation to properly present a "pro/elite" league that big-time sponsors, advertisers and marketers would support.

The BEST games I myself have played in or watched involved outdoor, under the blue skies and "eyes-of-God" ambiance -- GEEZ, just imagine a "pro/elite" league being located on a beautiful city or town plaza, on a beach or mall concourse -- this is what would attract the sposors, advertisers, marketers and "pr" that the game desperately needs (right Dave?;))...

Am I the Dave......? I feel like I know you..........Do I?

[ACCCT2]

Am I the Dave......? I feel like I know you..........Do I?

No, you're not "the Dave".;)

[Doug Jones]

ok, so acct 2, are you going to take your mask off, like Commissioner Graham asked? or continue to fight crime in Gotham....

[Berry_Bramble]

ok, so acct 2, are you going to take your mask off, like Commissioner Graham asked? or continue to fight crime in Gotham....

Hey....I fight crime in Gotham

[ACCCT2]

ok, so acct 2, are you going to take your mask off, like Commissioner Graham asked? or continue to fight crime in Gotham....

Sorry, but I'm going to "continue to fight crime in Gotham" in my own "incognito mode" way -- I'm sure that "Commissioner Graham" will understand that, as in the ending of "The Dark Knight", I'll just have to "do" my work "in the shadows" and avoid "pursuit" (ironically, one of the best lines in the "The Dark Knight", BTW, is when asked to explain the "difference" between himself and the vigilantes imitating him, the Batman in his wolf-like growl answers "I don't wear hockey pads";))...

[kevinsmithAZ]

Something's wrong when adults can't sign their names next to posts, yet me and AJ Barnett at 15 years old aren't afraid to let the whole inline hockey community know who we are and how we feel on certain topics.

Kevin Smith


Anyone agree or is it just me..?

[Berry_Bramble]

The right should be up to the poster and the poster alone unless the message board mandates that everyone must use their real name. If rules are in place that forbids bashing of other members, well then the appropriate actions can take place whether or not they use their real name. These things usually come with a ban buttom.

[ARHA]

Something's wrong when adults can't sign their names next to posts, yet me and AJ Barnett at 15 years old aren't afraid to let the whole inline hockey community know who we are and how we feel on certain topics.

Kevin Smith

I was going to say it myself...good going kevin.

[CoachClipboard]

I personally am all for mandating a persons real name be associated with any post they make on IHC. I would be willing to pay a small annual fee if that was a requirement as well. Maybe have 20 percent or so of that fee go to help a charitable cause? Like maybe a program for underprivledged children who would like to become involved in inline hockey? Make the fee payable only by credit card which could also prove to authenticate said posters.

But further allowing people to write vehnimately and behind a false ID only continues to deteriorate and degenerate a forum. No cost to read. Only to post. And for those that whine? Then they are only further demonstrating that they have no desire to help the hockey community in a positive way by their mere contribution to a good cause.

[zipyaj]

I believe that success of the sport is in the hands of the rink owners and their ability to retain young players... I give this long winded story to show the turn around that a dedicated owner can bring. Eddie Limbaga and the guys at 949 Roller Hockey Center are doing a first class job, and are the reason my son and I are only playing roller... I believe the owners make all of the difference.

Jeff,
Great story and comments. Having participated in this facility since opening day, and having worked with Eddie & his crew since day 1, I couldn't agree with you more! How about bringing on the good news and ideas to another forum post that is ONLY for positives? Please read and contribute more in "Hockey Helping Hockey."

Best!

[ACCCT2]

I personally am all for mandating a persons real name be associated with any post they make on IHC. I would be willing to pay a small annual fee if that was a requirement as well. Maybe have 20 percent or so of that fee go to help a charitable cause? Like maybe a program for underprivledged children who would like to become involved in inline hockey? Make the fee payable only by credit card which could also prove to authenticate said posters.

But further allowing people to write vehnimately and behind a false ID only continues to deteriorate and degenerate a forum. No cost to read. Only to post. And for those that whine? Then they are only further demonstrating that they have no desire to help the hockey community in a positive way by their mere contribution to a good cause.

What's wrong with everyone who registers for posting paying a sign-up/subscription ("soapbox"?) fee? This doesn't preclude anyone from simply logging on and enjoying the discussion and/or information from the sidelines if they don't want to pay? And why in the world does it have to go to a "charitable cause" -- why not make go to IHC and Richard, as with the lack of the inline industry support as a whole (even as they're utilizing IHC's features and fans for their own gain), Richard definitely kinda' qualifies in this regard, right? This is Richard's work and career -- I'm pretty sure that you get paid for your work and career, why shouldn't Richard? Just my 2-cents worth.;)

As for "allowing people to write vehnimately (?) and behind a false ID", all I can say is that my "ID" is not "false" and I've always behaved myself.

I personally would be happy to pay IHC a sign-up/subscription fee (even on a yearly basis), but I'll still not be changing my stance on 'how' and under what "ID" conditions I would be allowed to post, as Richard already knows who I am and clearly how I've always conducted and comported myself here. And if this "real name only" requirement for "ID" is going to be the make-or-break "Rubicon" of who gets to post, then I would choose to stay "on the sidelines" and "in the shadows" on principle alone, as we all know that this "handle" ("false ID"?) nonsense is not by any stretch of the imagination or truth the real problem and solution with the "incivility" issues here.

As for the suggestion that Richard should make "the fee payable only by credit card which could also prove to authenticate said posters", all I can say is that people use other people's credit cards all the time (spouse's; significant other's; parent's; etc.) and frankly, I think you're getting awful close to an un-American (and un-Canadian?), as well as paranoid and 'virtually' pointless invasion of privacy with that requirement.:eek:

In closing for now and in honor of the democratic processes we're presently witnessing (in that great land "Dan'unda" Canada, the good ole' USA!), I nominate and vote for an IHC "Pay-to-Say" forum format that will make it far more worth Richard's while to monitor and maintain the gentlemanly (and lady-like) IHC standards of discussion, discourse, disagreement and decorum. My suggested sign-up/subscription price-point: $9.99 -- either one time only, or say, a "Silver/Gold/Platinum" status* for yearly supporters who might get special IHC discounts and inside info for their yearly fee (I knew that tournament "division" stuff would be good for something besides "sandbagging" a "medal"). And I sincerely hope that he even gets even a little rich off of it and ceases being a taken-for-granted "charitable cause" by almost everyone here.:D

*: "Silver/Gold/Platinum" status sign-up/subsciptions (just a thought) --

"Silver" = 1-year member @ $9.99
"Gold" = 2-year member @ $9.99 (and you could allow a 1st-year member to upgrade to "Gold" by their simply paying for 2 years at once)
"Platinum" = 3-year member @ $9.99 (and you could allow a 1st-year member to upgrade to "Platinum" by their simply paying for 3 years at once)

Also, for those of us who use IHC's very unique and specific demographics as an easy "PR" and/or "get-the-word-outlet" for tournament/clinic/event announcements, I think it's only fair that there should be some kind of "listing" fee associated with such postings -- say, $100 per event (if the tournament/clinic/event can't afford even this paltry amount then it's definitely probably not deserving of IHC's ability to drive info, inquiries and ultimately, entries. Just another "2-cents worth" (WOW, Richard -- "4-cents worth" in one posting!:eek:).

[CoachClipboard]

First off, My post earlier was merely suggestions.
I agree with ACCT completely that Richard deserves every penny he can from this website he has provided with his own $ and time over the years. For me it has become an entertaining, enlightening, and informative outlet that I have not only come to enjoy, but look forward to whenever I come onto the pc. I mentioned the charity because I thought it might fit in with the whole give back to the sport theme the past several days, and I still believe its a good idea...lol.

Second, When I mentioned vehimently (yes I spelled it wrong, forgive me master of vocabulary...rolls eyes here) It was meant that if you write with such strong convictions, be a man and put your name behind it. No where were you remotely mentioned. But if you feel the need to defend it ...whatever. It's not like your names on anything.

Of course there will always be ways around giving a true identity, even with my credit card idea, as you mentioned, but there would at least be a measure to discourage it. I am sure there is some logical method to keep the posters honest about identity. Im also sure Richard already has given some thought to it at some point. You chosing to just read only and sit on the sidelines would be your option. In fact I encourage it!

I agree again with ACCT on some of the fee prices, and I don't think $19.99 is out of line.

[ACCCT2]

...It was meant that if you write with such strong convictions, be a man and put your name behind it.

Of course there will always be ways around giving a true identity, even with my credit card idea, as you mentioned, but there would at least be a measure to discourage it. I am sure there is some logical method to keep the posters honest about identity.

I agree again with ACCT on some of the fee prices, and I don't think $19.99 is out of line.

First off, the issue of "identity" supposedly was about "civility" in postings, not about "being a man" or "proving" anything (as if disclosing "true identity" was any measure of such in either case?). With all due repect to Richard and those of us who behave properly when posting, IHC is not the appropriate place for anyone to be 'vetted' in any way -- GEEZ, it's a forum, not Fort Knox or the Pentagon. Do we all submit our professional employment/hockey-history resume's before we're allowed to post any opinion, thought or idea? Earth to everyone -- with sincere sensitivity and all due respect, some of us "adults" take (a good natured "chortling") offense to being judged by those of us (especially well-meaning, but untempered and untested 15-year-olds) who don't have enough experience, life-lessons or gray hairs to know any better about why some people choose to "do" things they way they "do" them.

And lastly, I'd agree -- $19.99 would still be a fair sign-up/subscription "Pay-to-Say"/"Soapbox-ing" price-point (although I think that IHC might lose some younger posters and (yes, believe it or not) I think that their voice is obviously extremely important in this process as whole, especially in terms of growing "our great game" into its full and long-term potential -- what was that Whitney Houston lyric someone mentioned earlier on, oh yeah: "I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way..."). All in good fun, guys, and ALL in good cheer...!!!:D

[Stampede#11]

I've said it all along since ACCCT2 came on here ... he does make some very good points when you can wade through all the shyte. Why use 20 words when you can use 200 eh?

I just want to know all of this self hype of "working in the shadows" (bit OTT for my liking captain fantastic!?!) ... what have you actually done for inline hockey? That isn't meant in a "calling you out way" BTW.

You mentioned a global competition ages ago ... no more has been said?

If you have just helped 1 kid become an inline hockey player and get all the benefits of being part of our great sport ... just say you have. In my eyes that gives you as much creditbility as someone who runs a rink/touney's etc etc.

Just tell me what you have done for INLINE Hockey (note: not ICE) ... other than hockey in a big park in NYC? IMO you don't have to give you name, but just an honesty about what you do in the sport would go a long way with some people I am sure.

[ACCCT2]

I've said it all along since ACCCT2 came on here ... he does make some very good points when you can wade through all the shyte. Why use 20 words when you can use 200 eh?

I just want to know all of this self hype of "working in the shadows" (bit OTT for my liking captain fantastic!?!) ... what have you actually done for inline hockey? That isn't meant in a "calling you out way" BTW.

You mentioned a global competition ages ago ... no more has been said?

If you have just helped 1 kid become an inline hockey player and get all the benefits of being part of our great sport ... just say you have. In my eyes that gives you as much creditbility as someone who runs a rink/touney's etc etc.

Just tell me what you have done for INLINE Hockey (note: not ICE) ... other than hockey in a big park in NYC? IMO you don't have to give you name, but just an honesty about what you do in the sport would go a long way with some people I am sure.

What I've "actually done for inline hockey" is my business (for now, anyway). But if you'd like ("just"?) a small sampling --

By your own demanded and defined standards of ("just"?) "1 kid", well I've definitely "helped" more than ("just"?) "1 kid become an inline hockey player and get all the benefits of being part of our great sport" -- in "just" the last year alone, in "just" over one year "1 kid" was first taught how to play inline hockey (at our daily "Dead Road" game in Central Park), very quickly moved on to 'ice' and seeing both his joyful enthusiasm and incredible natural talent I arranged for him to be the very first-ever American to go through the storied SKA Sankt-Peterburg ("Red Army") Junior Hockey School in Saint Petersburg, Russia (http://petersburgcity.com/sport/teams/?id=432) -- where, BTW, I also personally arranged for him to be accepted into the prestigious Anglo-American School of St. Petersburg (http://www.aas.ru/stpetersburg.cfm) so that he could play the entire year with the SKA "Selects" and SKA-2 Junior teams, as well as spend a spectacular year in High School there. While there, he was mentored by and became family friends with Barry Smith (5-time Stanley Cup winning coach with the Penguins & Red Wings), who was brought in as the SKA "Elite" team's Head Coach "just" last season (http://hc-ska.ru/index.php). This is the "Elite" team that plays in the Champions Hockey League, Europe’s prime "Elite" club competition. And this all was built around "just" that "1 kid's" initial curiosity about his maybe being able to play inline hockey with us one sunny afternoon "in a big park in NYC". Is that "just" enough for ("just"?) now? I think it should be pretty obvious by now that I do indeed have a certain amount of big-time hockey and marketing knowledge and connections, as well as do "do" ("doo-doo"?:eek:) a LOT in the 'ice' and 'inline' hockey world.;)

I'm sure that's well over 200 words, eh?:D

And as I've "said" before -- I'll "say" what I feel needs to be "said" about whatever "global competition" it is I'm working on (in my own "in the shadows", "incognito moded" way), inline hockey or otherwise, only when I'm ready to "say" it and not one second sooner.

[Stampede#11]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Translated ... I helped some kid go to Russia and play.

(Don't know if going to Russia is technically a favour ... but hey!)

At least that gives you a bit of credibility helping someone out, which is probably one of the only decent things you have written on here.

I'm in europe so don't need a wikipedia "copy and paste" session of what events are .. Champions Hockey League is a new thing this year (was the old IIHF Cup) and the top 2 of the Russian KHL will play in it.

I don't see what context you are putting yourself in with this league/competetion? You know a kid, who knows Barry Smith, who's team perhaps will play at the event? What does that prove? BIG time credentials ... knowing a guy, who knows a guys, who's the milk man for Barry Smith ... yeah ... great creds man. "7 degrees of seperation" will somehow get me linked to Wayne or Mario ... doesn't make me an expert pal.

What you have done for inline hockey is indeed "your business" ... but until that is shared then appreciate you will get people taking a swipe at you, for taking a swipe at other people that you clearly don't seem to have had anything to do with.

Most of what you say, I feel is just rambling waffle ... as I think it is nearly a year since you first mentioned your "world event" with nothing happening since. Still don't know why you insist in tearing into the bodies within this sport, when it doesn't seem to me you have had any real involvement at any level. So I just don't see why you have that oh so large bee in your bonnet?!?

Time will tell I guess ... or you will just vanish when the NSA finally track you down oh leader of the revolution. Viva la Resistance!!

[ARHA]

(especially well-meaning, but untempered and untested 15-year-olds) who don't have enough experience, life-lessons or gray hairs to know any better about why some people choose to "do" things they way they "do" them.

This is a very valid point. Although, I would like to point out that everyone on this forum has as much right if not more of a right to be skeptic about the things you say, simply because you have no identity to back your claims up. Yes I may be fifteen, and of course I am not as informed about life as many others who express their feelings, ideas and concerns on here, but I do give people a name to goggle if they wish. I could come on here and post under a hidden identity and claim to be a grown male with a strong position in a marketing firm. I could look up stats and historical moments in hockey and pretend that I was living when they took place. But I don't, I am a 15 year old kid living in Colorado Springs, CO and everyone on here knows that, along with the name behind the identity. Personally, until you take of your mask and reveal your true self Mr. Bruce Wayne, I think I speak for many others on here when I say your creditability is going to continue to suffer.

On a further note, I would just like to say that I am in favor of a $19.99 "Pay-to-say" fee.

Thats all for now, I have hockey training to get to believe it or not. I'm sure this will bring back memories of high school hockey at 6am for all of you old men...lol.

[NLane]

I was wondering if ACCCT2 was all words & no action. The words are definately eloquent, and numerous, but I feel the level of action does not quite match the words. My profile tells what some of my actions have been relating to inline hockey and hopefully my words have kept pace. If you think not, ACCCT2, then ask Troho, Frank-Frank, rhhof and VAInline, and/or numerous others. They know who I am and what I've done even if you don't. Hope all had a safe holiday.

[kevinsmithAZ]

This is a very valid point. Although, I would like to point out that everyone on this forum has as much right if not more of a right to be skeptic about the things you say, simply because you have no identity to back your claims up. Yes I may be fifteen, and of course I am not as informed about life as many others who express their feelings, ideas and concerns on here, but I do give people a name to goggle if they wish. I could come on here and post under a hidden identity and claim to be a grown male with a strong position in a marketing firm. I could look up stats and historical moments in hockey and pretend that I was living when they took place. But I don't, I am a 15 year old kid living in Colorado Springs, CO and everyone on here knows that, along with the name behind the identity. Personally, until you take of your mask and reveal your true self Mr. Bruce Wayne, I think I speak for many others on here when I say your creditability is going to continue to suffer.

On a further note, I would just like to say that I am in favor of a $19.99 "Pay-to-say" fee.

Thats all for now, I have hockey training to get to believe it or not. I'm sure this will bring back memories of high school hockey at 6am for all of you old men...lol.

ACCCT2, Whether you like it or not, AJ's right. We may be 15 and may not have the life lessons of older members on the board, but we're pretty smart kids and while I do understand to a degree why you would not want to share your name, at the same time, it's not fair to call us out when we at least post our names. Just because I'm 15 does not mean I'm untempered. I don't think you understand that AJ and I are not your normal 15 year old kids. In just the past year alone, AJ had organized and planned a potential Professional league that could possibly work in the future. I almost single-handedly started a roller hockey club at my school, helping insure that our state (Arizona) would have a high school tournament series this year. I still run the program by myself doing everything from finances and team registration to booking practices and helping out coaching the JV team. We've grown our program from 7 original players to now over 20 with 3 teams.

I'm not trying to brag, I'm just trying to make a point that kids like me and AJ are the ones that ARE the future of the sport. We're starting young and getting our names out there because it's something me and him both want to be apart of when we're older. I love this sport just as much as you do, and I want it to be around for MY kids when they're around one day so they can enjoy it as I have in my short life so far. You don't need to treat us differently than any other member on this forum.

Kevin Smith

[Drexel63]

Great... another worthy and helpful post (anonymous though it may be) turned into a flame war between egos, and bickering hurt feelings...

Quite honestly I'm getting tired of all of this...

Hopefully I can add something which will steer the discussion back to a helpful direction...

In the 6 years I've spent in PIHA, I unfortunately haven't been a part of a club located at a rink with a dominant youth program. Every team I've played for was located at a rink geared towards Adult leagues. I feel like I have missed out on 6 years of memories and opportunity to give back because of that. I understand that, with so many teams located in the Philadelphia area, some rinks are bound to be more youth oriented than others, Feasterville and Marple, for example. However, what is stopping PIHA from forcing their clubs to develop youth programs at their rinks. Get the teams out into the schools... Offer clinic-based leagues for the young ones. What is stopping (besides the elimination of a little income) the elite adult leagues from forcing their members to further develop the youth and future of the sport? It would not be hard to install PIHA and AIHL regulations forcing clubs to do this.

Here is an example. PIHA's guidelines for game-day operations last year were quite detailed. For the most part, they were also followed fairly well, in my opinion. Add a clinic portion of the day into the gameday operations. Force teams to open up rinktime to the youth, and teach them how to have fun playing the game.... This is a win-win situation for everyone. The rinks get more kids on the floor, which is then up to them to translate into more kids in their youth leagues. The teams hopefully get more fans, which is up to them to translate into higher gates for home games. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, the kids get more exposure to the sport, and it would be up to them to get hooked and fall in love with it. And i'm not talking mites on ice here... I'm talking actual clinics, with actual league players volunteering an hour after the game (which many spend hanging around the rink or celebrating anyway) to give back to the kids in their area.

You want to grow and fix the sport at the Youth level... there is a great step in that direction.

These ideas are out there, gentelmen. This one in particular is already half way there. At every Lunatic home game, the youth fans are invited out to skate with the Pros. Take it three small steps farther... Step 1, make it mandatory for teams to be located in rinks with youth programs, or at least make it mandatory for teams to grow youth programs at their rinks if there are none. Step 2, make it mandatory for all teams to include their youth programs in game day operations, in some way, unique or carbon copy of what works elsewhere (like the Lunatics program). Step 3, make it happen every week, and grow the participation numbers by advertising your voluteer/charity program where kids can get interested... at their schools... this advertisement should come from the league, as they stand to gain the most by getting these kids involved early. The league should last longer than any one player's career, after all, right?

OK, I'm rambling... anyone else have something constructive to add? I'd rather not hear any more about what you've done, I want to hear what we all can do to make things better... And I would love to see the leagues drive that by asking just a little more of their member organizations, and providing the resources to do so effectively.

[Mtour71]

Accct2... Fighting Crime? really? bro, you are building a lawsuit against USA hockey. you are the crime. don't kid yourself.

[ARHA]

I know this has been said to much, but ACCCT2 should be banned from using any characters other than letters and numbers in his posts, and only the punctuation needed to make his posts grammatically correct. I get headaches trying to translate what he says into English. Maybe if I try to translate it into French it'll be easier, lol.