Divisional Realignment

[NCRHA]

This thread is in reference to the article on www.ncrha.org and it's Member Organization websites: http://ncrha.org/article.php?article_id=52705

Please post any general questions here and the NCRHA will do it's best to answer them in a timely manner.

For information on how this specifically affects your team regionally, expect an email from your Member Organization (League) Director or send them an email.

Contact information for each Member Organization can be found at the bottom of this page: http://www.ncrha.org/members.php


--
Brennan Edwards
Executive Director, National Collegiate Roller Hockey Association
www.ncrha.org

[alex]

Well looks like ASU will be playing DII next year.

So much for playing the top teams in the country.

[Drexel63]

ECRHA has already prepared it's teams for this change... Take a look at the difference in divisional play between last season and the season before, specifically at which teams moved, and speak with them.

Also, I believe this change is aimed at placing teams where they belong organizationally, which should be independent of competition. Your budget and organizational administration should be driving your decisions here...

[ARHA]

UCI better get a coach or they wont be able to make it to the Division I semi's like they did this year. What a shame, it was cool to see the six man, no coach team play Lindenwood for a shot in the finals.

[alex]

Not sure about everyone else, but from our team's point of view...we want to play college hockey to play teams of our skill level, not teams of our same organizational level.

But under this structure, it doesn't matter if 90% of the high level teams are well organized teams who are in DI, we'll be in DII because we don't have a coach with USA Hockey certification or because we can't afford to outfit 10 guys in matching jerseys, pants, helmets, and gloves.

[MAmato]

so instead of complaining about it, go find a coach and go get matching gear. it's not rocket science, and before you start crying about costs, realize that everybody has these costs.

progress is painful, so chin up.

[alex]

so instead of complaining about it, go find a coach and go get matching gear. it's not rocket science, and before you start crying about costs, realize that everybody has these costs.

progress is painful, so chin up.

Right. Precious time spent posting concerns on message boards when I could be out on the coach search.

It's not a matter of finding a coach, it's a matter of finding someone with enough time on their hands to travel six hours one way to the closest tournament and spend their whole weekend there without asking the team to pay for their expenses in any way because we'll be busy buying jerseys, pants, gloves, and helmets along with regular league fees.

Without blindly dismissing all concerns as "crying", realize there can be legitimacy in issues people have with this new structure. The teams in the league and those trying to get in the league are the ones who have to adhere to the rules, so we should be able to voice our concerns right?

[jsp047]

before you start crying about costs, realize that everybody has these costs.

Yes everyone has the same costs, but not everyone gets the same amount of financial support from their school. For programs with budgets even around $10,000(I know some programs get way more than that) these new rules will not be a big deal. However, for teams like us who only get $800 for the entire season this is a very big deal.

[TUcoach]

Not all changes are implemented at the beginning of this season, some don't take place until the 09-10 season!

Effective January 1, 2009, all teams must have a registered coach behind the bench for all games.

Effective September 1, 2009, all registered coaches must have completed a minimum of Level 1 USA Hockey coaching certification.

Effective September 1, 2009, all players must have gloves that match the color scheme of their uniform or black gloves. All gloves need not be the same manufacturer or style.

I don’t think it much to ask that teams have matching jerseys, pants and matching color helmets at a college level. This is just another way of separating the NCRHA from the local house league. As far as gloves go, DI teams wont need them until the 09-10 season, plenty of time to scrape up the money. Coaches...we did have a few teams struggle with this last season in the ECRHA. What we suggested to those teams was to find somebody...anybody. Faculty/staff member, father, mother, alumni to suggest a few. As a result, major penalties were down, fighting penalties were down, teams were more organized and the staff/official had someone to go to if there were issues with the team other than the captain. Also, schools might more willing to fatten a clubs budget if they see the league is requiring stricter regulations, happened to a few club in the ECRHA.

[MBurke]

Off the top of my head, this is a HUGE change to be undertaken in the short time frame available before next season. I really don't see how it can be implemented effectively in the off season.

It looks like a lot, but the only additional requirements being placed upon DI teams are matching helmets (which will probably affect only several players per club), matching pants (likely the same issue as helmets), and a coach. We already require predominant pants and matching home/away jerseys.

Obviously the coach is the hard part of the equation for a lot of clubs, which is why the extra semester has been given. We did this in the ECRHA this past year and despite concerns of some teams, they were all able to get SOMEONE to man the bench for them. This could be a club advisor or parent if you're really in a bind and can't find a bona fide coach.


In order to make an informed decision, a lot more information is required, such as:
which teams are planning to play which division in a given region ? This might make a difference in a team's decision.
Chicken/egg scenario, assuming your argument is that teams won't commit until they know where everyone else is playing. I have a feeling you will see far fewer teams moving than you anticipate.


How much difference in cost from division to division ?
Varies regionally. Based on our discussions in Colorado, the general consensus seems to be to keep DI close to the same price and shorten the DII campaign by a couple games.


What benefits are presented to the school for the higher per game cost of div 1 ?

DI should not and (to my knowledge) will not cost any more per game. The only increase in fees should/would be due to a longer season.


Is travel forbidden if not div 1 ?
Absolutely not. Travel is always encouraged, but the DI teams will be prodded a little harder, as I think our intent is to make at least one weekend of DI travel a mandatory thing down the road.

[hockey1]

At the ECRHA spring ACC meeting we talked about possible having a 18 or 20 games season instead of 16 for DII, are you actually thinking about having a shorter season now?

[MAmato]

Right. Precious time spent posting concerns on message boards when I could be out on the coach search.

It's not a matter of finding a coach, it's a matter of finding someone with enough time on their hands to travel six hours one way to the closest tournament and spend their whole weekend there without asking the team to pay for their expenses in any way because we'll be busy buying jerseys, pants, gloves, and helmets along with regular league fees.

Without blindly dismissing all concerns as "crying", realize there can be legitimacy in issues people have with this new structure. The teams in the league and those trying to get in the league are the ones who have to adhere to the rules, so we should be able to voice our concerns right?You should probably be voicing it to your league rep, not here on the unofficial forum.

With regards to school support, I can't think of a single school that pays for equipment (plus it's a one time expense), and getting a "coach" really isn't that bad. Hell, make one of the guys you cut a "coach", or rotate your scratches as "coaches." As far as I can see all you need is the USA Inline Coaching certificate ($10 extra).

I understand that the automatic reaction to change is usually an attempt to cling to policies of old, but really, these aren't hard things to do and aren't even that expensive. New pants/gloves/helmet is like $150 for pretty good stuff and the vast majority of us can forgo a couple nights at the bar or hiring some fat girl from the wrong side of town to take care of us for the night.

There are a number of schools with little or no funding that seem to be capable of DI play; these teams deserve to be there because they are dedicated. Again, you have plenty of time to figure this stuff out and make it happen, the amount one has to save until the deadline hits is minimal.

[MBurke]

At the ECRHA spring ACC meeting we talked about possible having a 18 or 20 games season instead of 16 for DII, are you actually thinking about having a shorter season now?

The season will be shorter than DI, but it is undecided whether that will be 16 or 18 games. We're putting together a new ACC area where we'll be discussing that over the next week or two.

[CSteamer]

I feel some of these sanctions are a little unfair. Like mentioned above..some teams only get around $1,000 from their school. Roller Hockey is a club sport. Requiring people to have matching gloves when you are a college student and having matching helmets in my opinion is a little ridiculous. And for some areas where hockey is not a popular sport whatsoever its a little difficult to find a coach willing to travel and spend an entire weekend somewhere. Also..thanks for all the notice.

[smiller]

Im not trying to be a jerk here but I want to say why is everyone complaining about this when the reason for all the changes is an attempt to make everything better? I understand that the cost may go up alittle and that sucks, especially for the clubs who get next to no money or no money at all from their schools. Im sure everyone knows to fundraise and all the good stuff. Now you just may have to go fundraise alittle more, or god forbid, skip one night a week of going out. I know that may seem like its not fair, but sacrifices may have to be made.

If anyone needs help with fundraising ideas, let me know. I helped run my club for 2 years.

[Drexel63]

because all College students are (a) cheap, and (b) selfish... I know, I was one for 8 years...

That was a joke, but this is a good point here... The league isn't asking you to do what Neumann did last year and get full matching gloves. All predominantly black will suffice, and whats the percentage of players in the league who wear black anyway? 75? 80? Are all the people on here complaing the ones wearing orange, yellow, and pink? How about helmet colors? 90? 95 percent black?

I understand the coaching concern, because as a coach I know how much time commitment goes into running a college team... But again, the league has been "stressing" the need for a coach on every bench since I was a sophomore and they initially split into two divisions to begin with.... Now all they are asking you to do is find one and in two years get them certified...

[MBurke]

I feel some of these sanctions are a little unfair. Like mentioned above..some teams only get around $1,000 from their school. Roller Hockey is a club sport. Requiring people to have matching gloves when you are a college student and having matching helmets in my opinion is a little ridiculous.

ACHA ice hockey is a club sport as well, and a heck of a lot more expensive.


And for some areas where hockey is not a popular sport whatsoever its a little difficult to find a coach willing to travel and spend an entire weekend somewhere.

As for the coach, teams have 7 months to find someone to stand on the bench with their team. It could be as simple as finding a parent or someone majoring in sports management who wants to act as a manager for a travel club sports team and get a wealth of experience that looks great on a resume.


Also..thanks for all the notice.

If you really feel the lead time here is insufficient, what would have been more appropriate?

The cosmetic changes are made not only to make our league look more professional and garner more respect, but also to help us as we look for ways to subsidize your costs. Believe it or not, it's easier to get sponsors, charge gate fees, and get your schools to support you with more funding when you look professional out on the floor.

[MBurke]

Probably the most salient point I can make is ...

If it's impossible for your team to get a coach or you don't want to go through the trouble of breaking your back to try to fundraise enough to play in Division I, that's what Division II is for!

To some there is an incredible stigma to "moving down" - the intent isn't to draw the lines based on how good you are - it's based on how willing and able your club is to fulfill the requirements of respective divisions.

Teams that want and can afford a division that is along the lines of ACHA or "varsity" level hockey will choose DI. Those that want something similar to what we offer now in Division I and II will choose DII. New teams and developing clubs will choose DIII until they get their feet wet.

On the flip side, if we wanted to cater to competitiveness exclusively and be "fair", we would throw out all uniform and eligibility requirements and shorten the season to ten games so that every team and player could afford to play if they wanted to.

The fact is that every team wants something different out of their club sports experience and this type of structure accommodates as many of those as possible.

[WCRHL]

Well looks like ASU will be playing DII next year.

So much for playing the top teams in the country.
Alex,

Please email me at [email protected] to discuss ASU's participation for next season. The WCRHL will be having a conference call on Wednesday July 9th at 7pm PST to discuss the impact that this will have on all WCRHL teams.

Thanks,
Brennan

[NCRHA]

Like Mike Burke and Kevin Murphy have mentioned, the coaching requirement is mid-season, and anyone can qualify as a coach. What we will do is set some requirements, such as age (probably over 18, as to not be too prohibitive or discriminatory), and there will be a dress code for the bench. This dress code will apply to all coaches and assistant coaches, as well as injured players and backup goaltenders.

The season costs are up to each Member Organization (Region) to decide. The impression that I got from most MO Directors is that the per game cost would be similar, but the number of games could drive a price up.

NCRHA fees for Division I, II and JC will remain at $350 each, with the $200 additional for having B programs ($550 max per club/school). It is undecided if Division III programs will pay the same amount.

[wednthavddr]

I think because of the new rules a lot of teams are going to be D2 more then D1. There are 24 bids for D1 and fewer for D2. Do you think that will be a concern? Is the NCRHA going to award teams for having a coach and matching gloves and helmets?

If teams remain the same in the southeast there will not be one team that will be D1.

the rules are good.. i think.. and were done with the best intentions but it will definetly reduce the amount of D1 teams. Do you think there will even be 24 teams that will have matching EVERYTHING. If so which teams are already qualified for next years D1 rules.

[NCRHA]

Also, each Member Organization knows that this is a big topic and have been encouraged to set up a deployment plan of sorts, in order to address concerns from their teams. Specifics on costs for your regular season, or games played for your regular season, will be decided by your Member Organization, not the NCRHA.

Please contact your MO Director for more details.

Also, as stated originally, please address any National concerns here on this message board so that all can read.

Thank you,

Brennan Edwards
Executive Director, NCRHA

[bakerg81]

Getting matching everything is really not that difficult. People always talk about how they want college roller hockey to be more legitimate and organized. This is truly a chance to make all of that happen.

At Penn State, where we got 0 dollars from our school last season, we managed to have matching helmets with decals, brand new jerseys, custom pants with our logos and numbers and have everyone wearing black gloves. We found a supplier who got us Nike Bauer helmets (the nice ones that NHL players wear) for 30 a piece and got the unis for about 125 for the set. We had to trade in some indoor rink time to do this but supplemented it by teaching hockey classes at the local Y in exchange for rink time on a smooth cement surface outside. We run campus IM leagues for a little extra money each year as well. The team still costs only about $500 per player.

Instead of complaining about these rules, be proactive and seek out ways to make them happen. Matching pants doesn't mean you need to have everyone wearing $100 Mission Boss pants like Towson and URI. Find ways to make the rules work to your program's budget and prove to your school that you're becoming one of the most legitimate and organized club sports on campus. You'd be amazed at how far you can get by simply showing your club sports staff the NCRHA website and taking 20 minutes to explain how smoothly the league runs. We're light years above a lot of club sports in terms of organization at the staff level; it's time for the teams to catch up.

[MBurke]

Every school is different. Regardless of what decisions we make, people will be unhappy or will feel slighted. However, given the chance and some real assessment, I think almost everyone will find that this structure is both more fair and more accommodating to ALL clubs.


I also have a problem with the perception that matching helmets, gloves and pants describe the organization of the club.

While it may not be a completely fair assessment, I'm less likely to be hired if I walk into an interview with cut-off jeans and a tank top, regardless of my qualifications. Nearly everyone, from club sports administrators to parents, makes snap judgments on the league based on what they see when they walk through the door. If there is staff presence, signage and other information up front and the teams out on the floor are easily identifiable, have a coach behind the bench, and look professional, the level of support increases. There are thousands of factors that can determine how organized a club is - these factors are the ones that also play collectively into how organized the league/region is perceived to be.


I'm sorry we are not organized enough to have matching pants, helmets and gloves. I suppose I should have spent my time trying to raise a few thousand dollars to get uniforms instead of a first class facility that is slated to be ready by the 2010 season.

Sarcasm taken, but it's great that you were able to secure a facility - it will undoubtedly help in the growth of your club. With that said, what is the point you are trying to argue? That you should be a DI club because you have a facility on-campus? Was K-State realistically expecting to move up to DI this year, only to have these restrictions keep them out?


As stated in the news release, only D1 schools will have the opportunity to have home and home sanctioned games on other than regional week-ends( one of the benefits of D1). How will this impact our new rink on campus ?

Same as the travel - it's up to the region to allow or not allow a DII team to host a home event/game, but NCRHA's intent is to try to start pushing home-and-home weekends and events for DI teams.


The NCRHA should be doing everything it can to maximize the benefit of being on a competitive club hockey team. The window dressing is nothing without the substance. The NCRHA should be striving to form the best competitive roller hockey in the country and should be expanding the top levels of the sport rather than limiting participation based on money.

If anything, we've cut down barriers to entering the league! For nearly ten years we've had a divisional structure in CRH that had ONE set of rules/restrictions for all divisions. The only "choice" teams ever had was to move divisions if they thought they were competitive enough.

Teams who could barely afford league fees or had some uniform troubles didn't have a less restrictive divisional option, and teams who wanted a longer season and more extensive travel schedule could never attain that due to the league trying to accommodate those struggling teams in DI or DII.

The new divisional rules make it clear why divisions exist and what the differences between them are. We've opened the door to allow teams to choose from among three different divisions based on what they can afford and the experience they want to receive. Division II may now be more affordable in most regions, since the season length will likely decrease by a couple of games. Division III now allows new teams a proper place to develop their programs in an environment that is less expensive and restrictive than the top two divisions.

[MBurke]

... and it's a side point, but I will be pushing heavily for us to establish a club committee for each division, so that the clubs themselves have the capability to steer how their divisional guidelines are amended going forward.

[MAmato]

you manage to get a rink going on campus and yet matching pants, helmets, and gloves are the straw that breaks the camel's back? I don't mean to call you a liar, but I'll be damned if you aren't completely overreacting.

It's not that much money to get matching helmets (hockeyoverstock has nice Bauer 5000s for like 25 every month or so, that's why 85% of my old team has the same color 5000), black gloves are inexpensive at the very least, and matching cheapo pants are cheapo. If there's an issue with a kid who just bought new gear, guess what, he can sell it to finance the new stuff.

Mountains out of a molehill.

[CUDangled]

As far as the matching equipment is concerned...the writing has been on the wall for several seasons. It really shouldn't be a surprise.

Yes there will be growing pains, but it makes our league look MUCH more professional.

[NCRHA]

I think that Jerry's questions were all valid. The way the rules were written and posted on ncrha.org do not explicitly state either way on whether a DII team could do these things. My thoughts, Mike Burke's thoughts, and if I am free to speak for the majority of the Member Organization Directors, is that we would not prohibit a Division II team from holding home games, travelling etc. We did state that Division I teams will be the teams that we "push" towards travelling interregionally, but we would not discourage or prohibit Division II teams from doing so.

Thanks Burke for your answers to Jerry's questions.

And thanks Jerry for questioning anything that appears subjective or open-ended.

That should show everyone that this will be a process, and does not need to be that HUGE of a change. In the ECRHA when they implemented this as a test last season, less than 10% of their teams (I believe) actually changed divisions. And of those, some were going to change divisions anyways.

[Jkahn09]

I feel some of these sanctions are a little unfair. Like mentioned above..some teams only get around $1,000 from their school. Roller Hockey is a club sport. Requiring people to have matching gloves when you are a college student and having matching helmets in my opinion is a little ridiculous. And for some areas where hockey is not a popular sport whatsoever its a little difficult to find a coach willing to travel and spend an entire weekend somewhere. Also..thanks for all the notice.

Totally agree with you, fsu gives us about 1500 from our school which basically covers 1/3 of our skating time. We each pay around a 1000 each and to ask for all these requirements is alittle beyond me. It just shows that this league is based all upon what the Echra teams can provide and don't put in any input from southern teams.

[MAmato]

Totally agree with you, fsu gives us about 1500 from our school which basically covers 1/3 of our skating time. We each pay around a 1000 each and to ask for all these requirements is alittle beyond me. It just shows that this league is based all upon what the Echra teams can provide and don't put in any input from southern teams.There's plenty of talented teams in ECRHA DII that didn't jump to DI because they either couldn't or didn't want to get their **** together, and DII was just fine. That may be because the talent differentiation in DI and DII at the top end is less than what your region deals with, but it is what it is. Again, if you don't want to deal with the horror of finding a coach, play DII. There's plenty of teams that do it and it's plenty competitive.

[MBurke]

It just shows that this league is based all upon what the Echra teams can provide and don't put in any input from southern teams.

Hardly. The changes ECRHA made last year were a pilot program for the NCRHA (with the NCRHA's support) and we reported back pretty comprehensively on how it affected our region. Positives, negatives and otherwise. Your region was represented in Colorado and we would not have approved this measure if we were not confident that ALL regions would accept it on a whole. Obviously not every team top to bottom is going to be happy with it, nor was that the case w/ the old structure.

It's about giving teams the opportunity to choose between divisions that are actually different and provide different benefits. That was not accomplished under the old divisional structure - essentially we had identical divisions which were divided neither by talent, organization or even enrollment (considering DII teams could move up to DI and DI teams could petition to move down to DII).

Two questions, to help us better understand some of the feedback we're getting:

1) Can you outline what additional cost per player these requirements will put on your club, specifically?

2) Since FSU was DI last year, if you think this will force you to play in Division II, what is in your opinion "bad" about playing DII?

[bakerg81]

Totally agree with you, fsu gives us about 1500 from our school which basically covers 1/3 of our skating time. We each pay around a 1000 each and to ask for all these requirements is alittle beyond me. It just shows that this league is based all upon what the Echra teams can provide and don't put in any input from southern teams.

What exactly are you guys paying for?? We got 0 from our school and our cost was around $550 per player.

[MBurke]

What exactly are you guys paying for?? We got 0 from our school and our cost was around $550 per player.

Probably travel - those guys have to go a ways longer and stay in hotels twice as often

[NYR1199]

What exactly are you guys paying for?? We got 0 from our school and our cost was around $550 per player.

Everything:

The league fee and practice/rink costs are the most expensive. Add in hotels, jerseys/pants, and travel and you have a big fee

[CUDangled]

For the Florida schools in the SE, most teams don't have a true "home rink". So you end up with road trips that are MIN 5+ hours away. Most teams have to travel closer to 10+ hours to get to their events. Events in Ft Meyers or Lake Worth help...but they aren't all in S. Florida.

Although there will be growing pains, as I already mentioned, I think in the big picture this will be a good move for the league. I just hope that the second step of this plan will include a new tier system that will make room for "weak well organized teams" and "strong well organized teams", with the ultimate goal being that all teams follow the equipment/coach guidelines. And forget about school size altogether. If you look at the results at Nationals throughout the history of the NCRHA, obviously school size is irrelevant. If we were in an NCAA environment where scholarships were an issue, than this would be a different story because the bigger schools would most likely have deeper pockets. Until then, keep the tiers based on talent and "organization"...

Just my $0.02

[CUDangled]

What exactly are you guys paying for?? We got 0 from our school and our cost was around $550 per player.

You really have to dig into a team's budget to see if that is the REAL cost per player. I was talking to another guy about their team and they only pay $75 a season. I asked how they do it...and he honestly thought that was all it cost because he wasn't very involved with the team financials. Once we got to talking, I find out that the school gives pays their league fee, their captain works at their rink and worked out a deal where they essentially practice for free "under the table", they only travel to two cities (besides their home rink) and they crash at one players house in one city and get hotels in the other. Half the team travels with parents for road trips...and they (parents) foot the hotel bill for the trip. So yes, they only pay $75 out of pocket, but the true expense is much greater.

[MBurke]

I just hope that the second step of this plan will include a new tier system that will make room for "weak well organized teams" and "strong well organized teams", with the ultimate goal being that all teams follow the equipment/coach guidelines. And forget about school size altogether. If you look at the results at Nationals throughout the history of the NCRHA, obviously school size is irrelevant.

School size is completely scrapped with this system (18k rule is completely gone and anyone can play DII/DIII now). Based on discussion at the meetings, I don't see it coming back any time soon.

As for the tiers, you're saying something like a DI-A and DI-AA system with DI-AA for organized teams that don't have a lot of playing talent? I think that's definitely a possibility depending on the growth of the league. Most regions don't have enough teams for four or five divisions to make a lot of sense right now, though.

[CUDangled]

Exactly. I think we have beat the topic to death and I don't think anyone will argue that

School size does not equal talent
Organization does not equal talent
Matching uniforms does not equal talent
School funding does not equal talent

Yet they all equal an appearance of professionalism (which is good)

There are some teams that are organized, have matching jerseys, etc...and simply don't have the talent/or interest at their school to put a highly competitive roster together. This is more influenced by the regional popularity of hockey (market) than the organization of the team.

So...this is a step in the right direction, I just hope that the PLANNING for step two is going to follow shortly.

[JewInNet]

I havent read through the entire new rules so the answer to my question might be in there

when the time comes when each DI team must have a coach, will it be allowed to have a player/coach that has taken the proper class but still plays for the team regularly?


I know in the south as some of the top teams continue developing coaches have been popping up on benches, but then there are some other top teams that still go without one, because they have a player/coach.

[NCRHA]

The coaching requirement is for a non-playing coach. This does not necessarilyi mean that the person has to be completely qualified, either. All coaches and other team staff on the bench will follow a dress code. If teams have trouble finding a coach, we suggest a parent, recent alum, etc.

[InlineMBA]

So, USA Hockey Inline - Level One is enough?

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

[NCRHA]

We have yet to determine the coaching certification level. My thoughts are that USAHIL Level One will be sufficient, with possible additional criteria in regards to NCRHA rules/regulations. Our certification should include some specific knowledge of NCRHA material. The NCRHA rules/regulations portion could possibly be administered by Member Organization staff.

[CUDangled]

Level I is a one day course
Level II is a one day course

They are generally (from my experience) held on back to back days. Just attend both sessions and get it over with...

Just my $0.02