Referees

[JewInNet]

I know we all have had our problems with refs here and there but I have a serious question about refs. I am really hoping to get some good responses from other players around the country and even some admins about this issue.

So I play in the SECRHL. As far as refs we typically have a staff for northern events and southern events. Based on talking to people that work for or run NARCH and ECHO tournaments, the refs used in the southern events are blacklisted(not allowed to be hired) for NARCH and ECHO events. Also, the southern staff of refs usually includes a high schooler as one of the three refs used.

Maybe I am wrong, but in my opinion but I feel that we cannot make our sport better and more respected unless we use the best personel available especially refs. If these refs are not good enough for the "top" roller hockey tournaments then why are they good enough for college roller hockey. Also, I know this happens in the south a lot and I sure everywhere else. Our games tend to get heated and even chippy and a high schooler does not have the command needed to keep the game uncontrol and to continue play in a timely manner. Before I brought this up with the region directly I want to make sure I was not completely off base.

So what do yall think?

[wednthavddr]

I totally agree with you, but in their defense that high schooler is 21. I thought he wasn't older then middle school. He just looks young I guess. I exactly saw him at Hooters gettin a beer with that chubbier ref that always smiles. I think it is the head ref.

[Leaferguy]

Just wondering if the refs are bad or you're concerned about the blacklisted aspect.

[ssuhockey]

I can understand your concern, but until you have repeated run ins or justified problems with the officials I wouldn't sweat it too bad.

For instance, I think if a ref has one bad/sub par game which they are allowed to have if we as players are allowed to have them, then everyone in attendance gives them a horrible rep. Refs take more heat than either team combined so until they are out their pullin a Tim Donaghy I wouldn't worry too awful much but thats my opinion.

Good Luck

[ECHOHockey]

Our name was mentioned so I wanted to add this VERY important detail.

ECHO Hockey has not "black listed" these officials. They were "black listed" by the USA Hockey Inline officials that used to work the SECRHL games, who happen to be the people in power for the Southeast and the state of Florida (from the USA Hockey Inline side). Long story / lots of politics (between the SECRHL and USA Hockey Inline officials...nothing to do with ECHO) that I don't want to get into on a public forum.

Essentially it was felt that the officials that do work the college games "crossed a picket line". Like I said, politics. So this became a political issue between the SECRHL and USA Hockey Inline officials.

While it is true that the SECRHL officials rarely work our events, I want to make it clear that ECHO Hockey did not "black list" these people.

On a side note..."the high schooler" that was referenced is actually in his late 20's (I believe) and his younger brother actually looks older.

[JLambertUMSL]

On a side note..."the high schooler" that was referenced is actually in his late 20's (I believe) and his younger brother actually looks older.

Imagine that. :o


Just a random tidbit of information regarding refs...take it for what it's worth...I'm just pointing out a fact, not making a judgment. When UMSL beat Lindenwood on March 2, both referees (and the linesman as well) were Lindenwood students/ex-students/alumni.

(You can probably imagine some of the stuff that gets yelled from benches in that kind of situation.)

[TourFLA98]

lol lambert is happy he found a reason to talk about that game again

[JLambertUMSL]

lol lambert is happy he found a reason to talk about that game again

:)

I really was pissed about the reffing when you guys beat us 11-2. At one point I was yelling to the rest of the bench when a ref (who'd just ignored a blatant rub-out into the boards) was skating by, "hey guys, boarding's legal now! Looks like you can board now!"

And during the national championship game, after the call on Schulz with about 3:00 left, it was: "Charity! As if they need it! Three minutes left in the national championship and you call THAT?!"

(One reason I like doing video from the bench is picking up stuff like that...and yes, usually I'm wrong...maybe someday I'll put together a reel of all my ref whining.)

[RichardGraham]

A Prayer to the Hockey Gods:

May our referees always be human
And occasionally bumbling
Making the odd bad call
Ticking us all off
But never being dirty
Like some of the current NBA refs
And killing the integrity of our game

[NYR1199]

The refs in the southern division of the secrhl are not the best or brightest. Theres a reason USA hockey doesnt use them why should the SECRHL or NCHRA? I've personally played games in both the northern divison and southern and there is a big difference in the quality of referees.
* This issue really needs to be looked at by the secrhl. Just because people are qualified doesnt mean they can actually officiate a game. Theres a reason he (roy and crew) are blacklisted.

[CUDangled]

Just because people are qualified doesnt mean they can actually officiate a game.

"Certified" vs "Qualified"

Big difference.

You read a book, attend a class, take a test and send in your registration money and you are certified. Only through experience (and ability) do you become qualified to officiate.

An 80 year old half blind woman may have a valid driver's license which legally "certifies" her legal ability to operate a vehicle...care to ride in the car with her?

[JewInNet]

Exactly, there is a big difference between certified and qualified

further reason we should make sure we hire the most qualified refs we can
maybe I'm missing something and the qualified refs dont want to work college roller and we are forced to hire the certified refs

[PGHhockey]

Personally, I think the ref "certification" for both AAU/USARS and USAHIL is a joke as a process. Granted, the classes are great for a new ref that's just getting started - if you have a good instructor, he can give you a pretty solid base to get out there and not screw things up TOO bad.

I'd like to see something set up closer to Canada's system. They really have their stuff straight.

I also think that it should be mandatory for every referee (inline and ice) to referee some high-level men's dekhockey games. That is, by far, the most brutal punishment that a referee can endure. If you can walk out of the arena after an A-league dek tournament, and still want to continue officiating - you'll do fine. :)

[CUDangled]

Why is dek hockey any more brutal for an official than ice or inline? Or is it just the particular people that are in the league?

[PGHhockey]

The tournaments are, by and large, Goon Central. Tournament Directors don't stand up for the officials. The sport has evolved to let way too much stickwork (and body play) let go. Total deterioration.

I thought inline/ice players whined a lot...but dek players...might as well keep a box of tissues in the timekeeper's box.

Also seen plenty of instances of serious, malicious attacks. Even attacks on officials.

[jj deviney]

have you ever played dek hockey?

[CUDangled]

I've never played...that's why I asked. They don't even offer it at our rink.

[jj deviney]

same problems as roller...lower leval has players who just cant play, A-leval very competitive and played very hard just like roller A...THE BIG DIFFERENCE is its much more physical and everyone who plays for the most part expects it.

[PGHhockey]

Yea JJ pretty much hit the nail on the head. Definitely the best ref I've ever seen, and he's quite possibly the best dek ref in the country, period. His group always puts on a good event with quality officials.

If any of the refs on the board ever want to see the absolute best in game management, watch him and his regular partner do a game.

You play roller too? See ya at the beach, big man.

[Mtour71]

Imagine that. :o


Just a random tidbit of information regarding refs...take it for what it's worth...I'm just pointing out a fact, not making a judgment. When UMSL beat Lindenwood on March 2, both referees (and the linesman as well) were Lindenwood students/ex-students/alumni.

(You can probably imagine some of the stuff that gets yelled from benches in that kind of situation.)

James,
This is Tyler Sollberger. I tried to set up an account and for some reason Richard can't figure out why it wont work. Anyways, George is the only one I know with an account that would let me use it.

What are you trying to prove by making a statement like the one above? The 3 officials who worked the game were all selected to go to nationals. Who else in our region would you like to have on the game? None of us have attended Lindenwood in several years and I played ice hockey not roller. Not to mention, I reffed in the league long before I attended Lindenwood. If I would have taken classes at UMSL would it have made a difference? Your also missing some key points about hockey in St Louis. Everyone knows everyone. I actually have a larger connection to UMSL. I played for "pops" for years when I was younger. He also works and is friends with my father. The other officials also played for Meramec and St Charles. I don't see anyone making a fuss about that. Does it make a difference? Of course not, so I ask you again, what is your point? Are you trying to make our region look bad?

Tyler Sollberger

[JewInNet]

Tyler has brought up another point that I have about the refs

Obviously I cant prove this but I feel that teams such as UF and UCF are viewed as the golden children in the south and thus some calls are made to benefit them or not called.

On the other hand some school are still being punished for how they were in years past even though the team is completely different. But, the same refs are still working and all they remember is that this team was cheap and overall physical in the past.

I know refs are human too, but I feel that there is obvious bias some of which is based on previous seasons.

so my new question is basically, during all the intensive NCRHA meeting and/or regional meetings have the quality of refs ever been an issue brought up or is it one of those topics that if we ignore it, then it isnt happening.

I think even if we can consistency of calls I would be a lot happier. One action is a penalty in the south part of the region, while the same play is a nothing in the northern half.

[Mtour71]

Tyler has brought up another point that I have about the refs

Obviously I cant prove this but I feel that teams such as UF and UCF are viewed as the golden children in the south and thus some calls are made to benefit them or not called.

On the other hand some school are still being punished for how they were in years past even though the team is completely different. But, the same refs are still working and all they remember is that this team was cheap and overall physical in the past.

I know refs are human too, but I feel that there is obvious bias some of which is based on previous seasons.

so my new question is basically, during all the intensive NCRHA meeting and/or regional meetings have the quality of refs ever been an issue brought up or is it one of those topics that if we ignore it, then it isnt happening.

I think even if we can consistency of calls I would be a lot happier. One action is a penalty in the south part of the region, while the same play is a nothing in the northern half.

JewInNet,
You've brought up some interesting points. I'm not here to defend any of the refs in the south, because I have played and I understand that sometimes you just get poor officiating, but seeing UF and UCF at nationals the last couple years, I understand that they both have strong programs. Now saying that, if a team is superior or faster that the teams they play in your region, it may seem like they get all the calls, but in roller hockey since you can't check, you have to use your stick if you can't skate with a team. We hear it here in the great plains all the time. Everyone always feels that Lindenwood and now UMSL are getting all the calls, but the truth is no one has the speed to keep up with them, so they have no choice but to hook. Just something to think about. Once again not defending anyone, but it may make some sense.

About the teams that you feel are getting punished for the past. I know from personal experience that I never go into a game saying "these guys are a bunch of idiots and I am gonna screw them." That does not happen, but I will say that if I have had a team that has caused problems, my standard may be tighter on the entire game. I think players and coaches come into games with a set agenda more so that referees. If I had a bad game earlier in the weekend with your team, I've heard coaches say "Oh god we got Sollberger again." And a lot of times if they take the first penalty, they lose their heads and it becomes a never ending circle.

I know the league is working on getting all the regions on the same page as far as the officiating goes. Its something that doesnt happen over night, but I think we are getting closer to where we need to be each year.

Tyler Sollberger

[JLambertUMSL]

James,
This is Tyler Sollberger. I tried to set up an account and for some reason Richard can't figure out why it wont work. Anyways, George is the only one I know with an account that would let me use it.

What are you trying to prove by making a statement like the one above? The 3 officials who worked the game were all selected to go to nationals. Who else in our region would you like to have on the game? None of us have attended Lindenwood in several years and I played ice hockey not roller. Not to mention, I reffed in the league long before I attended Lindenwood. If I would have taken classes at UMSL would it have made a difference? Your also missing some key points about hockey in St Louis. Everyone knows everyone. I actually have a larger connection to UMSL. I played for "pops" for years when I was younger. He also works and is friends with my father. The other officials also played for Meramec and St Charles. I don't see anyone making a fuss about that. Does it make a difference? Of course not, so I ask you again, what is your point? Are you trying to make our region look bad?

Tyler Sollberger


I guess I have to respond.

I don't like talking to refs. I don't want to see friend or enemy wearing the stripes. I don't really even want to know the refs' names. In most sports, the refs stay as far away from the competitors as possible in social settings.

You haven't taken classes at Lindenwood in several years? Is that true?

I saw you at the rink during the NARCh Regional wearing a Lindenwood Hockey shirt. I might just be paranoid, but still, I don't forget things like that. Because once you become a ref, it seems to me that you've got a professional responsibility, especially when you're at a rink, to eliminate ANY such appearance of bias. Doesn't matter if it's a Lindenwood ice hockey shirt. Everyone knows who you are. It's the appearance of bias.

All I did in the first place was state a fact. If it makes the region look bad, that's not my fault. (And incidentally, Coach Marchand has a much stronger opinion about it than I do.)

I will say that CK and AH are two of the three best refs in the Great Plains region, in my opinion. AH might be the best ref in the country. Extremely professional. And I had no problem with any of the calls made by CK during that game.

I took the bait. You win.

[ianmackie]

This is stupid. Tyler, Kahre, and Hayes have each reffed roller hockey for years and all are consistent as any other ref. There is a reason they were reffing that game and that was also a reason they all headed to NCRHA Nationals. It's funny, I love Kahre and consider him a friend...but his ranking at college nationals was not equal to how many in our area feel he deserves. Does that make him a bad ref? No, that means people have different opinions on refs. It happens everywhere.

I have to bring up the LU shirt. This is dumb James. He went to LU and still knows people that go there. He wears a shirt that says LU ice hockey and you bitch about it? It was a NARCh event, not NCRHA...same letters, but different events. I know I have shirts from AAU, USA Hockey Inline, NARCh, MOIHA, and soon to be TORHS. I could care less if I wear the AAU one to the USA Hockey Inline Vegas tourny. Most people don't think about the T-Shirts they put on. They ask; is this clean and does it match? In Tyler's case it was probably worn before but passed the smell test and look ok. A T-Shirt is just that...a T-Shirt. It will never effect the way a guy refs.

I know you are just responding to the thread, but you brought up Pops. How is he doing this offseason with UMSL? Just wondering.

See ya Saturday...

[Leaferguy]

If the shirt doesn't fit, you must acquit.

[MBurke]

so my new question is basically, during all the intensive NCRHA meeting and/or regional meetings have the quality of refs ever been an issue brought up or is it one of those topics that if we ignore it, then it isnt happening.

I think even if we can consistency of calls I would be a lot happier. One action is a penalty in the south part of the region, while the same play is a nothing in the northern half.

It was talked about for quite a while. It is difficult to attain the "consistency" that you see in high level ice hockey (NHL, NCAA, etc. - and even at those level it's complained about) when your league only plays on weekends.

Throw in the fact that refs don't necessarily work every event weekend and may be working other regional events with different guidelines (NARCh, TORHS, USAHIL, house league) in the interim, is it any wonder that consistency is elusive to attain?

[Mtour71]

I guess I have to respond.

I don't like talking to refs. I don't want to see friend or enemy wearing the stripes. I don't really even want to know the refs' names. In most sports, the refs stay as far away from the competitors as possible in social settings.

You haven't taken classes at Lindenwood in several years? Is that true?

I saw you at the rink during the NARCh Regional wearing a Lindenwood Hockey shirt. I might just be paranoid, but still, I don't forget things like that. Because once you become a ref, it seems to me that you've got a professional responsibility, especially when you're at a rink, to eliminate ANY such appearance of bias. Doesn't matter if it's a Lindenwood ice hockey shirt. Everyone knows who you are. It's the appearance of bias.

All I did in the first place was state a fact. If it makes the region look bad, that's not my fault. (And incidentally, Coach Marchand has a much stronger opinion about it than I do.)

I will say that CK and AH are two of the three best refs in the Great Plains region, in my opinion. AH might be the best ref in the country. Extremely professional. And I had no problem with any of the calls made by CK during that game.

I took the bait. You win.

James,
First of all this is stupid, but I am going to give you the facts. No, I havent taken classes at LU in several years. Do you really want to challenge me on this?

Please send me an UMSL shirt and I will wear it this weekend at the Torhs event. I wear a cubs shirt and I hate the cubs. Oh I also am an Illinois basketball fan and wear their shorts under my uniform. I must want their hockey team to win as well. I guess I better not wear a tour shirt around either, because I dont want to piss off a team sponsered by mission.

So you made a statement about all three refs doing that game and you said you had no problem with andy and chris. So whats the problem with me? I made 2 calls that game. It doesnt really matter because you dont have a clue for the first thing to look for in a good referee.

You say that in most sports the refs stay away from the competitors. Not true James. I see the refs leaving the Blues games and they always stop and talk to players and occasionally go have a beer with them. Thats because they are professional and know they do their job the same no matter what.

Anyways you still never answered the question. Whats your point that we reffed the game? Or that I reffed the game?

Just come out and say it. I must not be qualified. Its ok I hear we got a new guy coming back next year. I heard he has reffed like 10,000 games. lol

[JLambertUMSL]

Tyler, I never said you weren't a good ref. When it comes to seeing a call and making it, you're as good as there is around here.

But then again, I don't have a clue what to look for in a ref, do I?

(Ian, the shirt said Lindenwood Hockey and had the logo. It didn't say ice or roller. Doesn't matter, but I just wanted to clarify that.)

[Mtour71]

So back to my point. What is your point?

[JLambertUMSL]

So back to my point. What is your point?

By continuing this, you're only hurting your image as an official.

I don't know if this is even Tyler Sollberger...it could just be George Collins trying to get me to say something mean and personal about Tyler Sollberger. Either way, I'm not taking the bait.

[CUDangled]

It was talked about for quite a while. It is difficult to attain the "consistency" that you see in high level ice hockey (NHL, NCAA, etc. - and even at those level it's complained about) when your league only plays on weekends.

Throw in the fact that refs don't necessarily work every event weekend and may be working other regional events with different guidelines (NARCh, TORHS, USAHIL, house league) in the interim, is it any wonder that consistency is elusive to attain?

I don't think that the number of games assigned to an official in a weekend helps either. You can't split that many games with just three guys and expect a top notch performance every game.

[MBurke]

I don't think that the number of games assigned to an official in a weekend helps either. You can't split that many games with just three guys and expect a top notch performance every game.

The flip side is that it's not worth it for many officials to work for less than $X per weekend. Which leaves the option of giving them a high volume of games or increasing the pay rate significantly per game.

One thing we've done regionally to combat this is to employ referees as game supervisors and help with travel expenses, which cuts down on the floor time some.

I'm not as conscious of the situation in other regions, but I know that some of our events are difficult to get a full roster of officials for, which makes keeping the game count down equally challenging.

[PGHhockey]

The flip side is that it's not worth it for many officials to work for less than $X per weekend. Which leaves the option of giving them a high volume of games or increasing the pay rate significantly per game.

One thing we've done regionally to combat this is to employ referees as game supervisors and help with travel expenses, which cuts down on the floor time some.

I'm not as conscious of the situation in other regions, but I know that some of our events are difficult to get a full roster of officials for, which makes keeping the game count down equally challenging.


Couldn't agree more, except that it should be noted that it's a challenge to get a full roster of GOOD officials for any event. There are always a ton of guys who want to ref, but they're just in it for the extra cash. But, as Burke pointed out, oftentimes it's just not worth a guy's time, effort, and travel expenses to do a tournament/event.

Let's pretend Jeff is hosting a tournament in Feasterville. If you have 16 teams in a standard 3-game minimum tournament, there are only 31 games to go around. 16 Saturday, 15 Sunday. Break that up amongst 4 guys: each guy gets 8 games Saturday, and 7 or 8 games Sunday.

Assume everyone comes Friday nite and leaves Sunday night. Also assume 2 refs stay in a room at a cheap motel for the 2 nights ($80/nite summer rates). And let's say each ref travels an average of 120 miles and gets about 20mpg driving.

Each ref's travel costs:
Gas: $50
Hotel: $80
Food/Drink: $50 (assume $25/day)

There's $180 in basic travel costs. Assume pay is $20/game. If you do 16 games over a weekend, you're only going to profit $140.

Might as well just stay home and do your house league games.

[SPORTSPLEXJEFF]

Let's pretend Jeff is hosting a tournament in Feasterville.

I always host pretend tournaments!

[CUDangled]

Couldn't agree more, except that it should be noted that it's a challenge to get a full roster of GOOD officials for any event. There are always a ton of guys who want to ref, but they're just in it for the extra cash. But, as Burke pointed out, oftentimes it's just not worth a guy's time, effort, and travel expenses to do a tournament/event.

Let's pretend Jeff is hosting a tournament in Feasterville. If you have 16 teams in a standard 3-game minimum tournament, there are only 31 games to go around. 16 Saturday, 15 Sunday. Break that up amongst 4 guys: each guy gets 8 games Saturday, and 7 or 8 games Sunday.

Assume everyone comes Friday nite and leaves Sunday night. Also assume 2 refs stay in a room at a cheap motel for the 2 nights ($80/nite summer rates). And let's say each ref travels an average of 120 miles and gets about 20mpg driving.

Each ref's travel costs:
Gas: $50
Hotel: $80
Food/Drink: $50 (assume $25/day)

There's $180 in basic travel costs. Assume pay is $20/game. If you do 16 games over a weekend, you're only going to profit $140.

Might as well just stay home and do your house league games.


All very true...but on the flip side of that statement, would we rather pay slightly higher league fees and essentially "purchase" better officiating? Or continue down the current path where some of our refs are just a pharse and the others work so many games that due to utter exhaustion their officiating becomes below par?

Also, rather than "bringing in" refs, why not focus on developing our network of officials? Add more names to the list? Train local refs. Anything...

[irsh31]

Also, rather than "bringing in" refs, why not focus on developing our network of officials? Add more names to the list? Train local refs. Anything...[/QUOTE]


This is an ongoing problem in all leagues that require travel. Using local referees simply creates animosity from teams outside of the region. When you have the luxury of bringing in an outside referee to an event these issues are remedied but that costs money. Speaking on behalf of the ECHRHA we have added some new referees who are quite capable however most live in PA. Burke's points should be well taken. How much are you willing to spend for officiating? We will need travel expenses and enough games to make it worth our travel. If you can't afford this; the next argument will be over local guys favoring teams over others. This season with PIHA my greatest concern was officiating most of the Long Island home games. I live on Long Island. Sure this saves the league money but is this the protocol you want to adhere to? In the Northeast I was able to travel into New Jersey or CT so the 495ers wouldn't see my face every home game. However PIHA had to lay the money out for my travel. I still ended up officiating 75% of their home games.

[Berry_Bramble]

Also, rather than "bringing in" refs, why not focus on developing our network of officials? Add more names to the list? Train local refs. Anything...


This is an ongoing problem in all leagues that require travel. Using local referees simply creates animosity from teams outside of the region. When you have the luxury of bringing in an outside referee to an event these issues are remedied but that costs money. Speaking on behalf of the ECHRHA we have added some new referees who are quite capable however most live in PA. Burke's points should be well taken. How much are you willing to spend for officiating? We will need travel expenses and enough games to make it worth our travel. If you can't afford this; the next argument will be over local guys favoring teams over others. This season with PIHA my greatest concern was officiating most of the Long Island home games. I live on Long Island. Sure this saves the league money but is this the protocol you want to adhere to? In the Northeast I was able to travel into New Jersey or CT so the 495ers wouldn't see my face every home game. However PIHA had to lay the money out for my travel. I still ended up officiating 75% of their home games.

Oh I don't think you had to worry about people thinking you where a home town ref. Consistently horrible if you ask me...

Tell your better half to say hello to Nancy for me

Ha

See you soon,

Vio

[William Bourque]

Consistently horrible if you ask me...

Hey, that's all we can ask for right? lol

[CUDangled]

Also, rather than "bringing in" refs, why not focus on developing our network of officials? Add more names to the list? Train local refs. Anything...


This is an ongoing problem in all leagues that require travel. Using local referees simply creates animosity from teams outside of the region. When you have the luxury of bringing in an outside referee to an event these issues are remedied but that costs money. Speaking on behalf of the ECHRHA we have added some new referees who are quite capable however most live in PA. Burke's points should be well taken. How much are you willing to spend for officiating? We will need travel expenses and enough games to make it worth our travel. If you can't afford this; the next argument will be over local guys favoring teams over others. This season with PIHA my greatest concern was officiating most of the Long Island home games. I live on Long Island. Sure this saves the league money but is this the protocol you want to adhere to? In the Northeast I was able to travel into New Jersey or CT so the 495ers wouldn't see my face every home game. However PIHA had to lay the money out for my travel. I still ended up officiating 75% of their home games.[/QUOTE]

This problem is easily solved. Just don't have the "local guy" work the local team's game. If school XYZ hosts the event, then only the out of town guys work XYZ's games.

I will agree that there is a shortage of quality inline officials...but if we have to pay a few more dollars to use the "best", then I am all for it. Say you pay them $5/more per game.

$10/game total (two officials)
4 games ($40 added expense)
$20 per team
10 players
Would you pay $2 more per weekend for better officiating? I would.

[iwearstripes]

This is an ongoing problem in all leagues that require travel. Using local referees simply creates animosity from teams outside of the region. When you have the luxury of bringing in an outside referee to an event these issues are remedied but that costs money. Speaking on behalf of the ECHRHA we have added some new referees who are quite capable however most live in PA. Burke's points should be well taken. How much are you willing to spend for officiating? We will need travel expenses and enough games to make it worth our travel. If you can't afford this; the next argument will be over local guys favoring teams over others. This season with PIHA my greatest concern was officiating most of the Long Island home games. I live on Long Island. Sure this saves the league money but is this the protocol you want to adhere to? In the Northeast I was able to travel into New Jersey or CT so the 495ers wouldn't see my face every home game. However PIHA had to lay the money out for my travel. I still ended up officiating 75% of their home games.

This problem is easily solved. Just don't have the "local guy" work the local team's game. If school XYZ hosts the event, then only the out of town guys work XYZ's games.

I will agree that there is a shortage of quality inline officials...but if we have to pay a few more dollars to use the "best", then I am all for it. Say you pay them $5/more per game.

$10/game total (two officials)
4 games ($40 added expense)
$20 per team
10 players
Would you pay $2 more per weekend for better officiating? I would.

That's all well and good, and I'm sure there's no official that would pass up getting an extra $5 per game, but it’s not that easy. In my experience playing in, and officiating college inline, the majority of the refs I've worked with are the best of the best, and save for a few, I can't really complain about the guys that officiated me for 4 years. That said, it’s not easy to take a good men’s league ref who does some tournaments and make him a high caliber official, and plainly, there just aren’t that many good officials around. Getting to that level takes a huge time investment from the senior refs to coach and develop the new guys. It also takes time for the new guy. Just as it takes years to develop great stick handling skills, it takes time and experience to develop an official’s judgment, positioning, and his ability to spot penalties.

I’ve been fortunate in that the officials I’ve worked with have really tried hard to coach me into a quality official. You don’t get that everywhere, and I’m certainly a better ref for it. But it didn’t happen overnight, and it will take years for me to develop the refined eye that some of the senior referees have. An extra $5 a game isn’t going to make my judgment any different overnight. It’s just going to make me feel worse when I blow a call.

[CUDangled]

An extra $5 a game isn’t going to make my judgment any different overnight. It’s just going to make me feel worse when I blow a call.

You misunderstood my post...I think.

$5/game isn't going to make the CURRENT officials better, it is going to allow the league to employ BETTER officials. I am not speaking for all the regions, but I know for a FACT that the SE does not use the BEST/MOST QUALIFIED/MOST TALENTED officials in our region because of $$$ and politics. So as a result of game suffers. I am not taking a personal jab at the guys that do ref our region...but they know as well as I do that there are officials in our region that regularly ref at the international level that haven't touched the floor for an SECRHL event in years.

How many officials that live in the Southeast are currently working at the AAU Junior Olympics? How many of those officials work in the SECRHL? My money is on 0. How many officials from the SE work the other highly competitive levels of inline in the US? Either tournament series, PIHA, etc. These guys work all of them. Yet I don't see the SECRHL refs invited to these events. Want to guess why that is? I am sticking to the SE because that is the region that this thread originally focused.

I could name specific people and their qualifications (or lack thereof), but I don't want to make this personal.

You mentioned that you can't take a "men's league" official and work at this level. You are absolutely correct. Then why does it happen?

I have been in and around this league for several years and I have seen the great potential that it has, but I have also been witness to some of our major hurdles. The first things that need to be addressed is how our league is percieved by outsiders. These "outsiders" are future players, parents or future/present players, potential sponsors, rink owners, etc. One of the quickest ways to improve the quality of image is to do just that. Improve our image. Put up banners during events, invest in marketing in local newspapers to promote upcomping events. Market to the local high schools to get their players at our events...the list could go on forever. BUT...getting people to attend our events will do nothing if our games are nothing more than a college level gong-show.

Yes, players/teams/coachs can act like idiots. But if this is controlled and regulated in a consistent manner, they will adjust. No one wants to sit the whole game in the penalty box. Competitive sports is all about pushing it to the edge...but when the edge is constantly shifting you are left with some very confused atheletes.

Back to the original point about the $5/game. One of reasons the "best" officials out there are not found in inline, is because ice pays more. Why would an official work 20 college games over a weekend for $20, when he could work fewer ice games for more $$$/game and end up with the same paycheck. We wouldn't be able to completely close that gap, but the more we can close the gap the more we would be able to lure the dual-certified (ice-inline) officials away from the ice game.

People always argue that ice players are better than inline players. It isn't that the ice game necessarily breeds better players, that venue just attracts the better/more competitive players because the potential is greater. Same with officials. If I were one of the best officials in my area, I would expect to work the highest level of games (make the most money). These games...are ice.

[iwearstripes]

You misunderstood my post...I think.

$5/game isn't going to make the CURRENT officials better, it is going to allow the league to employ BETTER officials. I am not speaking for all the regions, but I know for a FACT that the SE does not use the BEST/MOST QUALIFIED/MOST TALENTED officials in our region because of $$$ and politics. So as a result of game suffers. I am not taking a personal jab at the guys that do ref our region...but they know as well as I do that there are officials in our region that regularly ref at the international level that haven't touched the floor for an SECRHL event in years.

How many officials that live in the Southeast are currently working at the AAU Junior Olympics? How many of those officials work in the SECRHL? My money is on 0. How many officials from the SE work the other highly competitive levels of inline in the US? Either tournament series, PIHA, etc. These guys work all of them. Yet I don't see the SECRHL refs invited to these events. Want to guess why that is? I am sticking to the SE because that is the region that this thread originally focused.

I could name specific people and their qualifications (or lack thereof), but I don't want to make this personal.

You mentioned that you can't take a "men's league" official and work at this level. You are absolutely correct. Then why does it happen?

I have been in and around this league for several years and I have seen the great potential that it has, but I have also been witness to some of our major hurdles. The first things that need to be addressed is how our league is percieved by outsiders. These "outsiders" are future players, parents or future/present players, potential sponsors, rink owners, etc. One of the quickest ways to improve the quality of image is to do just that. Improve our image. Put up banners during events, invest in marketing in local newspapers to promote upcomping events. Market to the local high schools to get their players at our events...the list could go on forever. BUT...getting people to attend our events will do nothing if our games are nothing more than a college level gong-show.

Yes, players/teams/coachs can act like idiots. But if this is controlled and regulated in a consistent manner, they will adjust. No one wants to sit the whole game in the penalty box. Competitive sports is all about pushing it to the edge...but when the edge is constantly shifting you are left with some very confused atheletes.

Back to the original point about the $5/game. One of reasons the "best" officials out there are not found in inline, is because ice pays more. Why would an official work 20 college games over a weekend for $20, when he could work fewer ice games for more $$$/game and end up with the same paycheck. We wouldn't be able to completely close that gap, but the more we can close the gap the more we would be able to lure the dual-certified (ice-inline) officials away from the ice game.

People always argue that ice players are better than inline players. It isn't that the ice game necessarily breeds better players, that venue just attracts the better/more competitive players because the potential is greater. Same with officials. If I were one of the best officials in my area, I would expect to work the highest level of games (make the most money). These games...are ice.
I don't know enough about what happened in your region to cause the good inline officials to go elsewhere. So I can't speak to that. I know in the region I work in, the college refs are paid more than most other leagues pay, and we seem to have quality officials. The referees have a pretty good relationship with the league directors as well, which also helps.

That said, while you can't take a men's league official and throw him in to work a college event, you do need to develop officials. Just because some regions have 10 officials (for sake of argument) that are high quality, doesn't mean those 10 guys will always be around. Guys stop officiating to spend time with their families, focus on their jobs, they move away, plus many of them work for tournament series and will have conflicts. To some extent, you have to develop new guys to fill the void. If there are 10 good officials, and 4 are working NARCh, and 4 are working ECHO, that leaves you 2 refs for the weekend, so either you're going to have 1 less qualified guy, or 2 refs who do every game all day, and are dead tired.

There has been some talk of division between some of the "better" officials, and the guys you have working your games... if there really is an issue, you can throw money at the problem all day, its not going to fix it. It seems you know some of the better officials, why don't you talk to them and find out what the issue is? Maybe get involved in your region's board and try to create the change you feel needs to be made?

Oh and refereeing ice hockey is horrible. Ice hockey parents are a whole different breed of out of their minds, and they breed kids who are out of their minds. Inline players are crybabies, but at sometimes they cry for a reason.

[ScrantonHockey]

Also, rather than "bringing in" refs, why not focus on developing our network of officials? Add more names to the list? Train local refs. Anything...


This is an ongoing problem in all leagues that require travel. Using local referees simply creates animosity from teams outside of the region. When you have the luxury of bringing in an outside referee to an event these issues are remedied but that costs money. Speaking on behalf of the ECHRHA we have added some new referees who are quite capable however most live in PA. Burke's points should be well taken. How much are you willing to spend for officiating? We will need travel expenses and enough games to make it worth our travel. If you can't afford this; the next argument will be over local guys favoring teams over others. This season with PIHA my greatest concern was officiating most of the Long Island home games. I live on Long Island. Sure this saves the league money but is this the protocol you want to adhere to? In the Northeast I was able to travel into New Jersey or CT so the 495ers wouldn't see my face every home game. However PIHA had to lay the money out for my travel. I still ended up officiating 75% of their home games.[/QUOTE]



thats a great idea. well put.

[PGHhockey]

It all depends on the individual ref's financial situation. Sure, ice games pay a lot more per game, but there are generally less ice games to ref consecutively (or in a weekend) than the volume of inline games. Sure, you have to work more to make more with inline, but most guys don't mind a little higher game volume (but not TOO much volume, as you stated at the beginning of the thread). Hell, I usually don't even really hit my stride until maybe the end of the first game of the day or the beginning of the second. I know that a ref should never say that, that we should always be sharp and on top of our game, but reality is reality. It takes a little time to get in your zone, and you also have to know your own individual breaking point when you've done too much and begin to lose your concentration, your emotions, etc.

You guys also mentioned training, education, etc.

USA Hockey and Hockey Canada have some fairly thorough and extensive training programs for new officials and officials looking to rise through the ranks. There's a system in place, which is something we really don't have with inline. In our game, you spend a half-day or a day taking a test, watching some videos, discussing Q&A's, and skating a bit to learn the "bump", "piston", "home base", how to break up a fight, etc. And then all of a sudden, you're "certified." I used to have men's league players complain to me that a certain ref wasn't "certified" - until I got one of the guys to actually come out to a L1 certification class and they saw that the process is minimal.

While that stuff does build a decent foundation, you can never, ever, ever, ever learn game management and player/coach relations from a book or a teacher. You gotta get out there (hopefully with a good partner) and take your bumps.

Is this totally fair to the players? No. But, I'm sure at some point in every player's career, they've had to step up to the next level and maybe they didn't do so well.

Maybe a 14U got a call-up to play for the 16U team when a couple guys got hurt and one was on vacation. Quite possibly, the 14U made bad passes up the middle, was out of position on the forecheck, and got smoked a few times. But if that 14U was playing with supportive teammates and coaches, I can guarantee he worked on his game and improved because of it.

The same applies for an official. There has to be a constant influx of new officials to replace officials who are finishing up their career, and to help facilitate the growth of the sport. There are VERY few guys who want to be officials in the first place, because of the abuse we take from everyone involved, especially when first starting out. Then, after doing a few games, you lose another large percentage of new officials because of the abuse we take.

If a new ref (or a ref stepping up to a new level) can work with a good partner, and be lucky enough to have respectful teams on both benches, he has a great chance for success.

Ref note of the day:

The quickest, best way to foster a mutually respectful relationship with any official is to quietly, politely, and objectively let us know something that's going on out on the floor that you don't think we see. If we saw it and disagree, we have a couple seconds to explain the call/no-call. If we didn't see it, we respect the fact that you can bring it up professionally and not scream and swear up and down the rink.

[TourFLA98]

James , your basically calling solberger a cheater.. I feel that certain refs at nationals want to see us lose and try to screw us over, but you don't see anyone calling refs out. Leave the god father alone... or else! :cool:

[irsh31]

Hey Vio:

She is the Nassau County Teacher of the Year, I guess she just had to get rid of the outside distractions if you know what I mean ......


If you ever paid me a compliment I would never believe you anyway. Don't worry I still voted for your "Coach of the Year" award!!!! Ha Ha

[JLambertUMSL]

James , your basically calling solberger a cheater.. I feel that certain refs at nationals want to see us lose and try to screw us over, but you don't see anyone calling refs out. Leave the god father alone... or else! :cool:

The first person on this board who mentioned Sollberger.......was Sollberger. He's not a cheater. I never even insinuated that.

Having the mentality that the refs and everyone else in the building wants you to lose is a good way to stay hungry. It worked pretty well for us in North Carolina in '05-06.

However, I never said the refs who worked that LU-UMSL game wanted us to lose nor that they tried to screw us over.

The only problem we've had with reffing in LU-UMSL games was the refs who seem afraid to make calls against LU. Not refs trying to screw UMSL over.

We have the best penalty kill in the country anyway so.......

[That Guy]

The refs are afraid to call penalties on anyone who knows more about hockey then they do. Dont get me wrong, most of the refs have been around the block, but if I recall the game UMSL did have one more penalty then Lindenwood. As for the "best power play in the country" I also believe LU scored on 3 of the 4 power plays they had. Its not Lindenwoods fault that UMSL played dirty the whole game. Lindenwood aren't angels by any means either; the two hand Tommy Bruce laid on the kid in the Ohio game was one the dirtiest plays I have seen in a while. But once again JLambert you are very good at filming.:rolleyes:

[JLambertUMSL]

The refs are afraid to call penalties on anyone who knows more about hockey then they do. Dont get me wrong, most of the refs have been around the block, but if I recall the game UMSL did have one more penalty then Lindenwood. As for the "best power play in the country" I also believe LU scored on 3 of the 4 power plays they had. Its not Lindenwoods fault that UMSL played dirty the whole game. Lindenwood aren't angels by any means either; the two hand Tommy Bruce laid on the kid in the Ohio game was one the dirtiest plays I have seen in a while. But once again JLambert you are very good at filming.:rolleyes:

And you are very good at putting together a coherent paragraph.

You obviously don't know what to look for in a camera man, hahaha....I pretty much suck at it.

If you noticed, I didn't personally tape any of the games at Nationals, until the final day, because our head coach made it clear to me that he didn't want my input, so I figured, screw it.

The only reason I've ever taped a single game is that as a coach, or wannabe coach, whatever, I think video really is that important. I can't imagine what I'd do without it. Why do you think NHL teams have "Video Coaches" and "Video Coordinators" on staff?

(Either way, screw you. Post your real name, coward.)

[hockeydude92]

why are you guys still going on about especially you James, didn't you graduate? aren't you 21? why don't you go to bar or club, and release some stress. Save the Glen Sather commentary for September. Schools out and the seasons over.

[JLambertUMSL]

why are you guys still going on about especially you James, didn't you graduate? aren't you 21? why don't you go to bar or club, and release some stress. Save the Glen Sather commentary for September. Schools out and the seasons over.

High expectations and big goals mean the season's never over.

10 minutes on a message board every couple days isn't really keeping me from having a normal life. Usually it's just to liven up the work day. But I appreciate your concern.

[Mtour71]

10 mins every few days... Someone hook this guy up to a polygraph. I spend 10 mins a day on here and you post twice as much as me and the 4 other people who use my user name do.

[Mtour71]

more importantly, what ever happened to Rebecca Breitel?

[JLambertUMSL]

10 mins every few days... Someone hook this guy up to a polygraph. I spend 10 mins a day on here and you post twice as much as me and the 4 other people who use my user name do.

OK, 10 minutes every day or two.

Fine, 10 minutes a day.

Sigh....OK....10 minutes, twice a day. But no more.

Plus I write/type really fast. :)