Progression

[NIHL09]

I know that many of you hear people's ideas of how things should be run, in the PIHA or "New League Proposals," yet nothing really seems to ever change. Well, this is a proposal for a new league, but it's not something that should be looked at to boom right away and it's not something that is meant to boom right away. So, here it is and all that I'm really looking for is positive comments or suggestions, as negative comments and suggestions aren't going to help anyone or the sport.

The NCRHA has a great system of scheduling and this is what would be incorporated into the league. We would push for 24 Organizations from around the country. 12 in a "Western Conference" and 12 in an "Eastern Conference." From their it would break down into 3 divisions in each conference with 4 teams in each.

What would happen, is their would be a total of 42 events throughout the season. 8 teams would participate per each event playing 4 games each at the event. Each team will play in 7 Events throughout the season, therefore giving them a total of 28 games. *Also there will be 6 preseason events, one for each division, to play 3 preseason games*

How will the events be arranged? Each team will have atleast 1 home event which they are guaranteed to be scheduled to play in, and 18 teams will have 2 home events and those teams will be guaranteed to be scheduled to play in both home events. What about the other 6 teams who only have one home event? They will be guaranteed to play an event that is closest to them.

The season will run 9 months long from October to June. The preseason will be one month long, the regular season will be 5 months long, and the playoff season will be 3 months long. Each team will play in atleast one event per month, and 2 events in 2 of the regular season months. The months with two events however, the team is guaranteed to play one of those at home, or in the closest location if that team doesnt have 2 home events per year.

So where are the outrageous costs? This is how things will be done; The team will have the OPTION of paying $1600 up front or they can pay $225 per event. *NOTE $1600 is cheaper than most house league seasons. The money will go to referee fee's, rink fee's ad other small operating costs.

Each organization can have a maximum roster of 23 (20 skaters and 3 goalies) and a minimum roster of 16 (14 skaters and 2 goalies). Each player must play in 20 games to be eligible for postseason play. So lets say you have a 20 man roster, that breaks down into just $80 a guy.

Admission? Unfortunately this is one of the only ways to make some kind of money for the league. But, it will be a set admission fee league wide, $5 for anyone over the age of 12 and $2 for anyone under the age of 12 is what would be ideal. And, if you buy a ticket it is good for the whole weekend. Here is where the organization benefits from admission. The first $700 will go to the league, however anything after that mark goes straight to the organization. *NOTE (For teams that only have 1 home event, anything after a $500 mark goes straight to the organization)* This is where the organization gets involved in trying to attract fans. So let's say you get 200 people there at $5 a ticket, that's $1000, $300 your organization gets to keep, that money could knock your league fee down to only $1300, or it could be used in travel fee's or on anything you like, its yours.

Traveling is becoming more expensive than ever. Therefore, this is why we are going to focus on 3 major sponsors besides hockey company sponsors.

1. Hotel Company
2. Bus Rental Company
3. Airlines Company

What we'd want? Of course we'd want free travel and stay, but we are going to try to work with these divisions of travel and stay to try and make it as affordable as possible for our leagues players. There's more to elaborate on this, but that will come in time.


There is a lot more to elaborate on in general, but this is sort of a core, and how something like this could send the sport into an upward swing. Please leave comments and suggestions, and if there is anyone out there who'd would like to be involved in this, please say so. Thanks

[growl89]

Is this the league where we get a team bus?


In all seriousness though, I like the idea of festivals or events as you call them. Even though the xihl was a bust it was an exciting atmosphere with more then 2 teams playing on a weekend.

That being said, good luck finding 24 teams for a new league...

[ACCCT2]

Hmmm..."we want free travel and stay..." and you're "going to try...", eh -- I've already definitely heard enough on this one. It's called "accommodations" and if you can't even get the most basic of basics correct in your presentations you're definitely in over your head.

As for your "Admission? Unfortunately..." pronouncement ("...this is one of the only ways to make some kind of money for the league") -- what makes you think that with NO previous track record and obviously NO professional marketing whatsoever you're going to SOMEHOW get sponsorship and fans to part with their hard-earned cash is beyond me.

One last thing -- the minute you give anyone an "OPTION" to do anything trying to convince them to part with their hard-earned cash (YES, if you picked up on it, getting people and entities to part with their "hard-earned cash" is a theme here), they'll do everything they can to create other "options" and scenarios to justify paying as little as possible (even nothing at all) to participate. This is obviously NOT very realistic and unfortunately reeks of VERY "pie in the sky-like", VERY "wishful thinking-ish" amateur hour. Just calling "a spade a spade", dudes...

[Phelan96]

Thank god there weren't internet forums back in 1917 to trash and discourage the NHL from forming. ;)

[PGHhockey]

Take the advice of Goldman Sachs...start this league in one of the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China).

Or, hop on one of the more recent emerging markets...anyone wanna go in with me on building a facility in Vietnam?

[InlineMBA]

I will say one thing, the "concept" of an event, such as how the NCRHA events are done, are way............................... better than the PIHA, one team - one trip philosophy.

Sure, some PIHA schedules work out that a team can combine two cities on a weekend, for a total of 4 games.

The NCRHA events accomplish the same thing, but you play, most times, 4 teams in a weekend, and it's a great atmosphere for families and friends.

Steve Inge - ROXBURY 8

[Drexel63]

I agree that the NCRHA weekend events are exciting, both for the players and the fans. However, I wouldn't want to see that style adopted for PIHA Pro.

Reason being, at only 32 games, the season is quite short as is. In regards to injuries and conflicts, changing the format to the NCRHA style would hurt more than it would help, in my opinion. If a team loses a key player to injury now, their schedule may dictate only 2 or 4 games impacted by the injury. With a festival schedule, like the NCRHA uses, and PIHA's double headers, you could lose a player for 1/4 of your 32 game season in one weekend to a minor injury which wouldn't normally warrant that much time off....

[ACCCT2]

Length of season is not that important. Quality of season (and on-court product and marketing, etc.) is.

[DieselBurns]

I know that many of you hear people's ideas of how things should be run, in the PIHA or "New League Proposals," yet nothing really seems to ever change. Well, this is a proposal for a new league, but it's not something that should be looked at to boom right away and it's not something that is meant to boom right away. So, here it is and all that I'm really looking for is positive comments or suggestions, as negative comments and suggestions aren't going to help anyone or the sport.

Traveling is becoming more expensive than ever. Therefore, this is why we are going to focus on 3 major sponsors besides hockey company sponsors.

1. Hotel Company
2. Bus Rental Company
3. Airlines Company

What we'd want? Of course we'd want free travel and stay, but we are going to try to work with these divisions of travel and stay to try and make it as affordable as possible for our leagues players. There's more to elaborate on this, but that will come in time


Only positive feedback allowed? Senator Obama is that you?

Seriously though...I'm sure with skyrocketing fuel prices you'll have "bus companies" and "airlines companies" lining up around the block to give free "travel and stay" to participants in a league with no exposure.

[Drexel63]

Which further supports my dislike for the festival format for PIHA...

Repetition and Length of Exposure are good things when it comes to Marketing and Sponsorships, correct? I know if I were a business owner, I would want my business or product promoted during a game as many times as possible, for as long as possible, for my donated money. In a festival environment such as the NCRHA, the league purchases rink time in bulk, and fits as many games as possible into those prime time slots. Making space for game break competitions, sponsorship highlights, etc, would not be a very high priority, especially when PIHA games are so prone to going long...

I think this type of scheduling would show a major decrease in a sponsorship-friendly environment.. Anyone have a counter-argument?

[Superstar9]

So...NIHL09....who are you? I'm just curious because I've now seen two ideas pop up in the last week about a Pro Tour format and they both ironically seem to be following a very familiar format. People need to really just wait until they have everything done and set up before they announce anything these days, it's the ONLY way you'll be taken seriously..

[DieselBurns]

Which further supports my dislike for the festival format for PIHA...

Repetition and Length of Exposure are good things when it comes to Marketing and Sponsorships, correct? I know if I were a business owner, I would want my business or product promoted during a game as many times as possible, for as long as possible, for my donated money. In a festival environment such as the NCRHA, the league purchases rink time in bulk, and fits as many games as possible into those prime time slots. Making space for game break competitions, sponsorship highlights, etc, would not be a very high priority, especially when PIHA games are so prone to going long...

I think this type of scheduling would show a major decrease in a sponsorship-friendly environment.. Anyone have a counter-argument?

You have a valid point. However the most important thing a sponsor looks for is to associate themselves with a brand that is recognized by a large group of people OR if they have a niche product, they look to sponsor events that bring awareness to their product. There are only so many companies that make hockey equipment, jerseys, etc. Outside of that, "pro" roller hockey isn't something that is an attractive draw to sponsors...especially in a bad economy when people are cutting ad budgets. The fact is until you develop a larger following that fits the demographic of potential sponsors you will have a hard time drawing sponsors. This needs to be a grassroots thing that becomes much more organized before you can go after any serious corporate dollars. Empty stand, forfeited games and/or short benches aren't going to make people knock down the doors to spend money with you.

[Drexel63]

Current problems with the league aside, and size of sponsor businesses aside, I think if the league went to this type of scheduling, it would be all around bad for business...

[DCbullets14]

I disagree with everyone who feels that this is not a sponsor friendly enviroment. In my opinion it would be an ideal enviroment for sponsors. By combining multiple teams into a single event you would theoretically increase the fan base. With more fans in attendance it gives sponsors an opportunity to show their product to a much larger group of people. The key will be providing sponsors with ways to get their product out to the fans.

You all say that the NCRHA events are very exciting, this atmosphere is what I feel the PIHA lacks. If you can create an energized atmosphere you will attract fans and with fans comes sponsorship.

I think one of the important things to realize is that finding sponsorship will be extremly difficult until the league is up and running.
I dont see it likely to have success with the accomidations but best of luck with that.

I dont think it would be hard for you to find 24 new teams to start this league. There are some very strong markets which have not been tapped by PIHA (Michigan, California, and Florida). If you are able to tap these markets building a successful league would not more realistic than everyone seems to think.

Feel free to PM me with a response or with more league info I would be interested in looking it over.

[bigjnstl]

In my opinion, There is not a need for another league, efforts ned to be put forth to fix the current league we already have. If we come up with another league, it will just be considered a joke just like piha was at first, mlrh was at first and so on.

I think if we can enough people that Charley trusts, to convince him to make changes to piha, that would be the best route. These are a few examples in my opinion could make things better. Let charley still "own" the league, but an executive commitee of a director of all 8 divisions, would make the important league decisions. It would force him to make some changes that are voted on by the executive committee and he could still make his money.

Just an idea, feel free to bash away. LOL Big J

[DCbullets14]

great ideas but you should start your own discussion so we can allow NIHL09 to get as much feedback as possible on his potential league instead of making it a PIHA discussion.

[Drexel63]

Hard to reinvent the wheel without taking a peak at the blueprints...

[DieselBurns]

I disagree with everyone who feels that this is not a sponsor friendly enviroment. In my opinion it would be an ideal enviroment for sponsors. By combining multiple teams into a single event you would theoretically increase the fan base. With more fans in attendance it gives sponsors an opportunity to show their product to a much larger group of people. The key will be providing sponsors with ways to get their product out to the fans.

You all say that the NCRHA events are very exciting, this atmosphere is what I feel the PIHA lacks. If you can create an energized atmosphere you will attract fans and with fans comes sponsorship.

I think one of the important things to realize is that finding sponsorship will be extremly difficult until the league is up and running.
I dont see it likely to have success with the accomidations but best of luck with that.

I dont think it would be hard for you to find 24 new teams to start this league. There are some very strong markets which have not been tapped by PIHA (Michigan, California, and Florida). If you are able to tap these markets building a successful league would not more realistic than everyone seems to think.

Feel free to PM me with a response or with more league info I would be interested in looking it over.

What makes you feel that way and what kind of sponsors would it be attractive to. Pro roller hockey has no added value for a major corporate sponsor. I would like to hear what you think makes it so attractive?

[DCbullets14]

What i have seen with PIHA is that the fan base is small mainly because people are bored by the games. Everyone has stated the the event style format is more exciting. This energy would bring more fans which allows sponsors to get their message to more people.

I dont think inline hockey is likely to recieve any major corporate sponsorship but small companies could get massive rewards from sponsoring the local event. Getting sponsorship from a local restaurant would be pretty easy. At these events you could expect close to 300 people (players and fans). Restaurants would most likely be willing to sponsor (a few hundred $) the event if you could persuade a decent number of these people to eat at that restaurant throughout the day.

Hockey companies would have a great opportunity to push new equipment by setting up display stands (all for a small sponsorship fee) similar to the ones at NARCH.
All a hockey company would have to do is set up a hardest shot contest (done during AAU Junior Olympics in New Orleans) and kids would swarm their stand. If that company gave the kid with the hardest shot a tshirt during half time of one of the games, whos equipment do you think the kid will buy next season? It is a great way to get their product in the minds of young players. No company is going to give this league money and get nothing in return we have to find inexpensive ways of making sponsorship worth while, which I do not feel that PIHA does.

I think finding a corporate sponsor who will finance a league will be nearly impossible. That does not mean that sponsorship cannot come from a larger number of small buisnesses. Im not suggesting that all costs of the league will be covered but any amount of money is a help.

These are just some ideas. I could be completly off the mark with all of this. If i am please let me know.

[Leaferguy]

I don't think a festival format's going to fix how boring the games can be sometimes...

[DieselBurns]

What i have seen with PIHA is that the fan base is small mainly because people are bored by the games. Everyone has stated the the event style format is more exciting. This energy would bring more fans which allows sponsors to get their message to more people.

I dont think inline hockey is likely to recieve any major corporate sponsorship but small companies could get massive rewards from sponsoring the local event. Getting sponsorship from a local restaurant would be pretty easy. At these events you could expect close to 300 people (players and fans). Restaurants would most likely be willing to sponsor (a few hundred $) the event if you could persuade a decent number of these people to eat at that restaurant throughout the day.

Hockey companies would have a great opportunity to push new equipment by setting up display stands (all for a small sponsorship fee) similar to the ones at NARCH.
All a hockey company would have to do is set up a hardest shot contest (done during AAU Junior Olympics in New Orleans) and kids would swarm their stand. If that company gave the kid with the hardest shot a tshirt during half time of one of the games, whos equipment do you think the kid will buy next season? It is a great way to get their product in the minds of young players. No company is going to give this league money and get nothing in return we have to find inexpensive ways of making sponsorship worth while, which I do not feel that PIHA does.

I think finding a corporate sponsor who will finance a league will be nearly impossible. That does not mean that sponsorship cannot come from a larger number of small buisnesses. Im not suggesting that all costs of the league will be covered but any amount of money is a help.

These are just some ideas. I could be completly off the mark with all of this. If i am please let me know.


I wouldn't say you're completely off base. I do think you're simplifying it too much. First of all before companies offer up sponsorship dollars they want to know the wifm (what's in it for me). You either have to have a history of successful sponsors willing to give testimonials (which this league doesn't have) or you better have a great story to tell. This league doesn't have that either.
Before you start going after sponsorship money the league has to be shown to be credible, and right now it isn't. Too many things go wrong for it to be taken seriously by a potential sponsor. Also, if you are to approach sponsors they are going to want some sort of guarantee or at least strong commitment that they will get a positive ROI. At this point you can't offer that. Without that, you have to get more patient and more creative.
In the case of the restaurant scenario that you put forth, the best bet would be to get the restaurant to offer coupons to paying customers (free appetizer or something) so that they could tally the amount of visitors/customers that they get from your event. If they get a strong enough pull you may be able to convince them to begin sponsoring events. Until then you have no leverage. Unfortunately you have to walk before you can run and this league is still in the crawling stages.

[PGHhockey]

In advertising/sponsorship sales - one should really follow the old adage about "walk a mile in their shoes."

When your business model requires serious ad/sponsor dollars, think to yourself:

1. How much money do I need? What's my break-even point?

2. What type of company would seriously benefit from advertising their product/service through my league/event?

3. Are there any of these types of companies local to the league/event facilities?

4. Get your selling hat on. Nothing happens until something is sold. (And that means selling teams on participating in your league BEFORE you go selling ads/sponsorships. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY (besides close personal friends and/or family) is going to spend a penny without seeing some type of exposure numbers.

Look at the sponsorship sheet for D i c k 's Sporting Goods...it's a REALLY good tool for anyone who is out trying to sell ads or sponsorships. If you can present the information they require on that sponsorship application, you can get sponsors.

Start small, man. If you have 24 teams, a major sponsor, and a few smaller sponsors, you're going to have a train wreck of a first season in the league without YEARS of planning ahead of time.

Shoot for 8 teams in a centralized market. 2 or 3 SoCal teams, a Vegas team, Phoenix, Tucson, 2 or 3 NorCal teams and you'll be able to manage it on the West Coast.

If you wanna play out East (even though there's MUCH more competition), a PA/OH/MD/NY league is reasonable.

Grow it from there.

In the past few months, I've already seen 3 posts about "new leagues." I highly doubt any of them will ever come to fruition, because there are just too many issues from the top down with inline hockey. It starts with AAU/USARS and USA Inline, next on to the equipment manufacturers, and it goes on down to PIHA, then it goes to NCRHA, which trickles down to High School programs, and it ends with the rec players, the rink owners, and the parents.

It will take a monopoly at the top to really "fix" things. Ice hockey has the right idea. Sure, there are major political issues within USA Hockey, but when it comes to ice hockey in the United States, it's all USA Hockey...it starts there and ends there.

Next, the manufacturers really need to develop a low-end "beginner" line and realize that kids outgrow their inline equipment just as fast as they could outgrow their ice equipment.

PIHA...not even going there. Check out my Nintendo post.

NCRHA and School programs really seem to have it together too. Those numbers are growing annually and most programs/leagues seem to run fairly smoothly.

I'm doing my best to grow the opportunities out there for Rec players through PGH Hockey. It's slow, but it's working.

The rink owners are in a tough spot. It's really a labor of love, because unless you have a multi-sport facility in a great location and you keep your cash in order - you're probably not making much money. I know I didn't.

Parents are what they are. Some will do anything to help because their kids love the game, and they love watching and seeing their kids happy. Others will just bitch and complain no matter what. That's what parents do.

If each of these issues are tackled slowly, deliberately, and professionally, we can get to where we all want to be.

[Leaferguy]

Maybe the reason all of you support it is because if a real league started some of you couldn't crack a roster?? I don't know. But whatever you guys are thinking is crazy.
I would have to work a lot harder to even come close to what I think a true pro roller league could be. It'd still be a long shot at best :D

How much of PIHA's revenue actually comes from "the gates?" I mean, I know the team owners do a lot of work to get these things going, but I wonder how much of the money comes from sponsorships, the players, admin, and then the gates. It'd be interesting to see, I think.

[DCbullets14]

Inline hockey is simple if you want to see true pro go watch torhs or narch. If you want to see a traveling adult league PIHA is the place to be. I wont even mention MLRH we wouldnt want to hurt anyones feelings. PIHA International may be a great idea, id love to see it happen, but my money will not go into financing it.

[DCbullets14]

lol yeah i guess you are right

[joisyan]

to go back to NIHL's post about starting a new league. i think that a shuffle is necessary. break the country into smaller leagues instead of spreading too fast too thin. because in all do honesty, this is what's happening. it's what kills every league.

i think if you have multiple leagues in the US and Canada, then there can be more choices and more competition. maybe get a west coast league, just california, las vegas, arizona, etc. call it the west coast league. have someone out there completely dedicated to the teams out west so that every game is on a level playing field. (not sure how close colorado is to vegas but whatever) then you can have a southeastern league to get florida and the carolinas. a north eastern league, etc.

because one little league office in pennsylvania is obviously does not have the means necessary to control such a wide spread league. and not to insult any other league officials on the division level, but they're volunteering their time, not getting paid by the league (at least that i know of) so who can blame them if things are not being run correctly, or if they're not being given certain powers that are necessary to control the teams in their respected divisions?

i would just like to see something change for the good for once. it can either be a new league, or new leagues. or the current league take a progressive step forward as far as quality is concerned

[NIHL09]

I've taken a couple of days to let feedback build up on this thread. I appreciate all that everyone has said, good or bad. Taking everything into consideration, I think what would be more likely to work with my idea, is a Junior league (17 and Under), with just an area of the country, preferably the West Coast as with what joisyan had said. What we could do, is set up about 8-12 teams, in the California/Arizona/Nevada region. The way the teams could be setup, would be to find 8-12 rinks in this region who would be willing to host a team, have tryouts, and establish the team into a small organization, with an owner/manager, and coaches. Than from their we could have "events" for the teams to play games, maybe looking at around 20 in a season and than follow it up with a couple playoff events. I like what DCbullets14 had mentioned about trying to obtain close by restaurants to sponsor the events, along with trying to get a couple companies at some, to draw some fans and make it even more exciting. I still want to stick with the idea of having one event at each team's home rink. So let's say if we got 10 teams to do this, we could have 10 events, 1 at each team's home rink, and within those 10 events each team would put 20 games in. I would also like to have an all-star event, maybe midway or three-quarters through, just to make it even more enjoyable. My reasoning for a Junior league, instead of a new "professional" league, is because I would like to see an already established PIHA grow, and with this Junior league try to work these players into PIHA professionals and into the NCRHA such as ice hockey Junior leagues do with their players. Now maybe this is something that is more realistic to happen and maybe something that people would be interested getting involved in. Once again, please leave any comments that you have. Thanks

[NIHL09]

Any comments or suggestions at all on what I had updated with?

[PGHhockey]

Any comments or suggestions at all on what I had updated with?

The Juniors work well with ice hockey because that's the place to get scouted to play in college or get to The Show.

What benefit would there be for a player to play inline Juniors without any true goal moving forward?

Nothing against college inline, but it's almost all club and pay-to-play (PTP). So you're gonna pay to play Junior, so you can pay to play in college?

And without a true "Pro" league to look forward to, again, are you going to PTP in Juniors so you can PTP in PIHA?

The steps need to be taken to offer scholarships for inline hockey at the collegiate level, or for pay in "Pro" leagues in order for there to be interest playing at the Junior level. Otherwise you'll end up with a bunch of U20 rec players.

[NIHL09]

You make some very good points. And I agree with you that without their being a non PTP Professional league, or collegiate league it may be difficult to gain interest. One of the leagues goals would be to work with colleges on the west coast to offer some small scholarships to get the players into their schools, and make their team more competitive. I know that the NCRHA is a "club sport" for colleges and universities, however their are some that do offer small scholarships for their club Inline Hockey team and I'm sure we could find a few on the West Coast willing to do the same. Also, their are not many leagues like this for "Junior" players under the age of 18, which I think would be a benefit in itself, and just another place for kids to play.

[DieselBurns]

So...how's this league coming along?