Suspension question...

[PGHhockey]

OK guys I want to lay out a scenario for you and get your GENERAL opinions on what the appropriate actions/suspensions should be in a typical men's league setting. I know every league has different standards and such, but I'm just curious to see what you guys think...

Players Involved:
Team A
Player A1
Player A2
Player A3

Team B
Player B1
Player B2
Player B3

Player A1 and Player B1 chase puck into the corner - Player A1 takes a hard slap at the puck and clears the zone, hitting the blade of Player B1's stick in the process. Clean play - A1 & B1 are friends.

Player B2 then comes up behind Player A1 and delivers a hard slash to the hand, knocking A1's stick out of his hand. A1 immediately turns and moderately pushes B2.

A2 then immediately comes in as a 3rd man and delivers a series of closed-fist punches to B2.

B3 comes in to the altercation, attacking A2 with closed-fist punches. A3 comes into same altercation. A2 is fighting B2, A3 is fighting B3. Players A1 and B1 stood and watched after the initial B2 slash and A1 push. A1 with light trash-talking after altercation.

A1, A2, A3, B2, and B3 were all ejected.

Questions: Did A1 deserve to be ejected? Did he also deserve a suspension?

If a suspension is deserved for A1, then, in theory, why isn't every push/trash-talk a suspendable action?

I understand that A1's actions did instigate a major altercation, but a minor penalty is a minor penalty. And last I checked, a moderate push after being slashed would be a minor penalty in almost all cases.

(Oh, and if you haven't figured it out - A1 is me and I'm being a big baby and whining about being suspended for PUSHING a guy and talking a little trash)

[5280]

I'm confused. What time did the train leave Chicago? :D

[PGHhockey]

hahaha...11:20 AM traveling 60mph....

simply stated:

I got slashed hard, pushed the guy, a fight broke out involving other people, I got suspended. I'm now whining about it to a bunch of people I don't know, hoping they'll say "Yeah Bill you really got shafted dude."

[RINKRAT]

If you would've known you were getting suspended, you could've got a few licks in there and made it worth it.

I don't know you, but Yeah Bill, you really got shafted dude...;)

RAT

[5280]

Of course, you did shove the guy who slashed you, and we can't judge how benign or violent that shove was. So, there IS some culpability.

And, there is precident for judging the consequences based on the results of the chain of events your actions created (2 minutes for a high stick, 4 minutes if the guy bleeds...same action, difference outcomes, different penalties).

But, from the way you describe it, yeah, it sounds like you got shafted.

[PGHhockey]

Yeah, good point about the actions leading to outcomes...

Put it this way, I have a 375-lb. bench press, the guy weighed maybe 175 max, and I doubt I moved him back a half-step. Not much of a push :)

Err...sorry...I meant "Player A1"

[quick_dry]

Put it this way, I have a 375-lb. bench press, the guy weighed maybe 175 max, and I doubt I moved him back a half-step.
next you'll be telling us your car gets 300 cubits a quart ;) <insert grumble about imperial measurements)

no you shouldn't have received a game ejection, **** happens.

"dude you got shafted"

maybe your rulebook is different, but I like to make it a general rule to always refer to anybody other than the first two guys in an incident as "additional players" - as a ref and tribunal person, '3rd man in' references irk me :)

Lesson is to avoid the trash talking afterwards, it further involves you in the fracas, increasing the chances you'll get a penalty. When fights and anything that is exciting and requires the ref to blow the whistle and start handing out penalties, you wanna make sure you're as far away as possible - it is the time they're most likely to just get excited and start penalising anyone and everyone they see.

Did you get a further suspension, or just a game ejection? game ejection sucks, but **** happens. If it is a league suspension, how did you argue your case at tribunal?

[PGHhockey]

next you'll be telling us your car gets 300 cubits a quart ;) <insert grumble about imperial measurements)

Unfortunately my car isn't quite as efficient as my pectoral muscles! Where do you come from, quick_dry?


maybe your rulebook is different, but I like to make it a general rule to always refer to anybody other than the first two guys in an incident as "additional players" - as a ref and tribunal person, '3rd man in' references irk me :)

"3rd man in" does sound slightly...well...nevermind, I don't wanna get Richard and Burke into trouble ;) I will refrain from using that phrase going forward!


Lesson is to avoid the trash talking afterwards, it further involves you in the fracas, increasing the chances you'll get a penalty.

Point well taken...


Did you get a further suspension, or just a game ejection? game ejection sucks, but **** happens. If it is a league suspension, how did you argue your case at tribunal?

Yeah man that was my whole point...not only was I ejected from the game (which I understand, because at that point I'm ejected to prevent any further incident in the game). But I got another game suspension on top of that!!!!

I didn't bother arguing anything. I'm the head ref at 2 rinks, I run tournaments, and I'm pretty much a nice guy - there was no need to further the situation and risk any damage to my reputation by raising hell about it. I figured I'd just complain to a bunch of anonymous guys that have become "message board buddies" over the past few months, haha

Plus, even though the refs at this rink do a pretty good job of keeping things under control, they are probably some of the laziest guys I've ever seen. Rarely do they even go past the center line once the face-off is dropped. They call "goal" or "no goal" from center (great angle, eh?). Every game starts late because they all socialize in the pro shop between games. So, I often wonder if they even saw what happened, or if the view was different from 90 feet away.

[/rant]

[RichardGraham]

Hey Bill,

I can commiserate a bit.... I played at a rink (to be named later?) a few years ago that had rule in which you were suspended for a game if you received three or more penalties in a game. I picked up three penalties in the last regular-season tilt, and I had to sit out our (only) playoff game.

I (sort of) understood the reason for the rule (the rink owner was pretty straight-laced, had his own kids who played in the rink, and he didn't want trouble. However, the last penalty I received was taken against the guy who happened to be the rink's head of officials – can you say conflict of interest? – and… his team eventually won the championship.

THAT ticked me off…

[PGHhockey]

Rich, I feel your pain. I guess that brings up another good point...

If at all possible, should league refs not be allowed to ref the league they play in?

While that concept is, in theory, the ideal...it's very hard to make it happen in practice.

[GR8SK8r06]

"Rich, I feel your pain. I guess that brings up another good point...

If at all possible, should league refs not be allowed to ref the league they play in?"

Its hard for many rinks to do this because of the limited number of refs they may have. In our A league here in Colorado the only guys capable of reffing it are the ones who play in it. There are numerous Colorado College ice players in our current league and I know they dont want the Bronze league skaters reffing their games. So we have to do it that way and things work out fine. It should be avoided but rinks just cant make refs out of thin air.

As for the fight in discussion I think you should have just knocked everyone out and made it all easier on the refs....... since nobody wanted to fight you. Either that or turn your stick into a bowstaff and spear everyone in the throat!! POW! LOL! Seriously though, I dont know if your suspension was warranted, I would want to see the game to be able form an opinion. Good job not pounding someone, I surely would have tried!

[joisyan]

Richard,

we have that rule in our house league. only it's 3 stick infractions. not holding or anything of that nature, and the reason being; a slash, spear, butt-end, hook, etc. can result in serious injury (not like any other penalty cant) but when you're constantly getting penalized for such penalties, you're considered to be "dangerous" and get a suspension for the next game. this is what i was told at my last ref clinic

[RichardGraham]

Hi Tim,

I can definitely understand being suspended for a game for those kind of infractions -- those are dangerous penalties. I'm not a slasher or spearer; if I remember correctly I might have had a tripping penalty and a couple of roughings where I went too hard for a puck and knocked a guy down. The problem with the three penalties and you're out rule is a bit like the three-strikes law, where you can go to jail for 25+ years for stealing a pizza on your third offense... lol.

[joisyan]

i can see dong that kinda time if you held the pizza man at gunpoint? haha

but yea i know how frustrating it is, i think tripping is considered a stick penalty? i could be wrong. otherwise it could be considered a dangerous play.

i had a game not too long ago, this kid came around the back of the net for a wraparound, and i stepped to the inside to force him to the wall, he started to go around me then cut inside for some reason? so i stuck my foot out where he was pushing the puck with his stick, i got the puck with my foot, but his feet were behind his stick. so he went flying, i kept the puck the whole way and got the call for tripping.

i can understand fully why i was called, but i considered it to be ok at the time because i was in complete control of what i was doing. take the puck and run, unfortunately they just saw it as me dumping the kid...oh well right?

[quick_dry]

If at all possible, should league refs not be allowed to ref the league they play in?
I think it is tough to avoid it happening, but there isn't a huge problem if you have good referees.

Assess them, you can still have non-playing refs who have a clear bias one way or another and make terribly prejudiced calls, OTOH, a good referee who is playing in the league will make the right calls without bias.