outdoor/ semi enclosed rinks

[skooled]

Hi guys and gals. I live here in Australia, and in Sydney (biggest city in Aus) we have just lost our last inline rink, so no more inline hockey. we are looking at ways to get a rink up and running, and have thought about the outdoor idea, maybe with a covering roof, but no walls, if you catch my drint.

do you guys have many of these, if so could you put up some pics or some links to their websites?

[Leaferguy]

Odd you ask...

http://www.thepiha.com/article.php?article_id=51921

[quick_dry]

something I wonder about the plastic tiled outdoor rinks is keeping the surface clean - they seem to just attract dust from static cling.

I can see the maintenance benefit where resurfacing is just a matter of popping a new tile in, and the underlying concrete/asphalt needn't be perfect - but could roll-on type floor end up easier to clean and maintain (plus give a better surface?)

Skooled - wonder what the difference in startup cost is betweeen getting a really well done slab + urethane covering versus a decent slab and then buying a floor to go over it.

Any concreters able to chip in on whether expansion joints can be an issue?

[skooled]

they sure will be an issue, as in they will be needed, unless the surface is covered over (to stop heat from sun) the outdoor tiles, very different from the indoor type I have been assured create alot less static, so stay relatively clean, plus I have urethane coatings, not good on us goalies.

*leaferguy, this rink was brought to my attention by quickdry on one of our Australian forums, but this article is GREAT!!!*

[RichardGraham]

Hi Skooled,

This former Gretzky Roller Hockey Center, now called 949 Roller Hockey, has always been an outdoors/covered rink:

http://www.949rollerhockey.com/

Try contacting them for their insights, and good luck!

[skooled]

thankyou!!! I went looking for the gretzky rinks, not remembering the name change!!!

[ACCCT2]

Actually, a great representation of just exactly what you are comtemplating/imagining is surprisingly not located in the USA -- go to this link -- http://www.kpcchk.org/ -- and check out the YMCA King's Park Centenary Centre (located in Kowloon, Hong Kong) and their amazingly state-of-the-art 'inline' roller hockey facilty. If you go through their entire website you'll see that they have an awesome multi-purpose facilty that quite frankly would be ideal for warmer places like Australia, South America, the Southern and Southwestern USA or anywhere where winter/cold weather is not an issue.

For those IHC forum readers who might be interested, by clicking on the HK Inline Cup (http://www.kpcchk.org/events07HKICMain.asp) link (at the top right of the page-link banner), you'll be taken to the largest 'inline' roller hockey event in Asia, and quite frankly, in my opinion, a total tournament/event package whose exotic ambiance can't be beat by anything (presently) anywhere in the world, including even the best "name" tournaments here in the USA. I myself played in the very first 6-team incarnation of this tournament back in November, 2001 and it was truly an exciting and competitive event that was very happily made into a Hong Kong/Asian yearly 'inline' roller hockey calendar date.

I've since been back as an observer over the last few years and have been very impressed with the level of competition the event has consistantly showcased, especially considering Hong Kong's relative lack of 'inline' roller hockey history. In the 6 years since the inaugural event, the HKIC has quickly grown into 5 division, 36 team tourney, with teams coming from as far away as Australia, Canada, Iran (yes, Iran!), Japan, Korea, the Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan, the UK and USA -- and from what I've heard (firsthand) the YMCA of Hong Kong is/was actually considering building a 2nd facilty/rink that could allow the event to more than double its draw, as well as the year-round court-time availibilty/usability by the local Hong Kong community (I haven't heard anything since they first discussed this however)...

[Leaferguy]

something I wonder about the plastic tiled outdoor rinks is keeping the surface clean - they seem to just attract dust from static cling.

I can see the maintenance benefit where resurfacing is just a matter of popping a new tile in, and the underlying concrete/asphalt needn't be perfect - but could roll-on type floor end up easier to clean and maintain (plus give a better surface?)

Skooled - wonder what the difference in startup cost is betweeen getting a really well done slab + urethane covering versus a decent slab and then buying a floor to go over it.

Any concreters able to chip in on whether expansion joints can be an issue?
My dad works with cementitious products, so I can ask him.

From personal experience, though, I've played on outdoor rinks that were painted concrete with very little cracking issues. I think it probably depends on the formulation, how it's poured, thickness, and a whole bunch of other ****. Our driveway at home is, I think, an 8" or 12" slab. The "expansion joints" are actually just lines cut into it with a saw for effect. There has been some spider cracking, but nothing huge. We sealed it asap.

The big thing is that any concrete surface needs the ability to drain and it needs to be as flawless as possible in terms of smoothness. If I'm not messed up in the head, I think water seepage into the concrete can cause pH changes that really **** it up down the road. As far as the smoothness goes, I think that it can get pretty expensive in terms of prep work and work during the pour, but I'm just guessing. It likely needs to be slightly graded from the middle or something to help water run off under the dashers.

[skooled]

thats for that guys!!!!
the hong cong cup is definately a great event, but I just hate seeing all tha money spent on a rink, and it being so small...

full size rinks are where its at

[ref'n'roll]

There is a rink here in Pittsburgh, PA, USA that is covered and enclosed on one side. There are two inline rinks in the summer and one ice sheet and one inline floor in the winter. The floor is white sportcourt, very hard and very old. It is a fair facility at best on good weather days.

Here are the problems:

Hot and humid days cause the floor to be too slippery to play. Short, sudden thunderstorms on hot summer days cause humidity to rise quickly. The asphalt parking lot doesn't help much with surroundinmg heat and humidity.
Extended humidity buildup also gets under the floor and sometimes creates expansion issues (tile bubbles) and also creates a slick surface when moisture seeps up through the tiles.
The facility enclosed the other 3 sides with plastic strips which keeps the weather out (rain and snow), but adds to the humidity problem.
It is REALLY cold in the winter! Pucks break in the winter.
Birds live inside the upper roof structure and defecate the surface on a regular basis. Washing your hands is a must if you pick up the puck and fresh bird feces can be slippery.My advice---spend the extra money and by an enclosed facility. Look for old warehouses or airplane hangars and renovate. Even if you build new, be prepared to be a multi-sport/event facility (indoor soccer, lacrosse, arena football, basketball, volleyball, roller derby, birthday parties, lock-in sleepovers, table-tennis, dodgeball, dances, skate parties, etc.)---ANYTHING to bring in added revenue---because you will NOT make any money and be able to stay solvent with inline hockey alone. I know some facilities that even rent space to other business (cheerleading, gymnastics, karate clubs).

Finally, from my experience, roll-on is much cheaper initially, but is murder on your knees because you stop so suddenly. It also has to be refinished every 5-7 years.

Good luck with your venture.

[skooled]

thankyou for your insight. it is a long way off, but I agree that it has to be multipurpose to even think of surviving

[ACCCT2]

Obviously, ambiant evironmental issues and concerns like "refn'roll" mentioned are clearly something to think about when building a facilty. In Hong Kong's KPCC, weather, humidity, pigeons, birds, bats and bugs have never been a problem or something they had to build around.

From what I know from my own ice and 'inline' hockey adventures in Australia, now that I think about it, especially in the more southern parts where flies and insects are clearly a problem, it might be a good idea to "go all the way" with a covered facilty, as the sanitary maintenance alone (on a semi-enclosed facility like the KPCC) would probably keep you far busier than you'd otherwise have to be, so it's definitely something to consider.

As for the size of the floor, anything at "3/4" or bigger (45m x 22.5 to 30m x 60m) more than accommodates even the best quality of play and players, so keep this in mind when 'sizing' out a potential site and facilty. And designing whatever you ultimately build to be "multi-purpose" is, I think, an absolute must...

[skooled]

Ok. it looks liek enclosed is the way forward, but could put it so much further back, as an open rink woul be easier th get a parcel of state land for. I just don't know what to do...

[longboarderj]

I saw that someone already mentioned this rink, but check out this site:

www.949rollerhockey.com (http://www.949rollerhockey.com)

I play here and my son plays here, it is a great rink

[quick_dry]

skooled, the irvine (949) centre is exactly what I was picturing - I've trained there a couple of time many years ago.

(funny that I've played at 2 of the example rinks - kpcc and 949). KPCC has a pretty good covering and have extra protection via the climbing wall at one end and the plastic sheets down the boards side. Small rink and not so great surface though - fun atmosphere, got a good turn out for grand final last year.

ACCT2 - were you there last year?

In NSW you don't need an enclosed rink, we used to have several open rinks that were used for hockey (windor, sefton). The problem is inclement weather, without a roof it was painful as rain meant rescheduling games and hoping a repeat downpour wouldn't happen.

cheers for the info Leaferguy :)

[ACCCT2]

I always stop in during the HKIC each year, as my business regularly takes me through Hong Kong and Southern/Western China. I didn't catch the Final last year, but heard it was great game (were you on the Flyers club or Team Digi?).

As for the surface -- I agree that if you're comparing it to a 'modular-tile' floor system (like Sport Court or Mateflex), it might pale a bit, especially when you're used to skating on such "tiled" rinks. However, as far as a 'coated' hard-court surface goes, it's definitely better than most hard court surfaces I've skated on -- and I stand by my statement about "3/4" rinks like the KPCC being just as good for leagues/competitions, as the smaller surface-size forces an even more skilled and exacting level of play, play-making and skill-sets.

[WocesterWicked8]

Back in 1994-1996 I played inline out in San Diego, Misson Valley I believe.

http://www.6pacusa.com/

They are still in business. For an outdoor rink it was damn good. I played a couple hundred games there. I can't count on one had how many games got stopped because of the elements.
Mind you it doesn't rain much in San Diego.

The suface back then was a fine polished cement which felt like glass. It was sticky enough to move and turn as quickly as you could. Looking at the photos on the site it seems they have added some type of laytex type coating.

Outdoor rinks are very fun in my opinion I just wish New England was a bit more dry. ;)

Good luck on getting a new rink going.

Derek

[skooled]

ACCCT2, QD would have been with the flyers. Do you not agree though that a smaller rink takes away from the advantages that 4on4 hockey gives???

[ACCCT2]

Not on a "3/4" rink. In my own humble opinion, no "advantages" are really lost at all. In fact, any "advantages" gained in the 4-on-4 format should really be based upon skill-sets, but realistically, the proportionately 'bigger' rink (because of fewer players) just allows for more slow-seeming, carry-the-puck 'commitment' time for players to 'think-out' their zone-play -- whereas the "smaller" ("3/4") rink puts a premium on reactive, intuitive and instinctive play and skill-sets -- no "lugging-the-puck" at your leisure here, guys...!!!

A further piece of supporting evidence (again, from my humble point of view) is that the BEST and toughest 'inline' players I know of, have played against and seen play (like the NHL-alumni Mullen brothers here in the "Big Apple") come from the smaller, 'tighter' confines of outdoor hardcourts (like the Hell's Kitchen neighborhood playground leagues of Manhattan), so whatever "advantages" the larger rinks avail players with in terms of more open real estate to freely float around and hopefully exploit is sensibly and proportionately 'corrected' in a "3/4" rink -- it feels much more 'ballistic', more intensely 'dashing', 'dodging' and 'darting' like hockey should feel, in my mind at least...

[skooled]

fair enough argument I guess..... hmm...

[quick_dry]

ACCT2: I'm in Flyers, might see you there this year.

The very best surface I've ever skated on was the main floor, chicago odeum at NARCh platinum finals in '96, you could grip better on that floor with 81 or 84s than a tile does with 73s.

I prefer a full size rink - small rinks like KPCC/HKIC are only suited to 3 on 3, 3/4 size is ok though - but skooled i'm not sure when the last time we had a rink in NSW that would count as 3/4 sized would be.

[ACCCT2]

The KPCC is essentially a "3/4" rink (45m x 22.5). Keep in mind that 'inline' hockey rules generally 'open-up' the floor as far as 'off-sides' positional situations are concerned, so generally in a "3/4" rink you have (or should have, anyway) quicker transitions between defense & offense, as well as more exploitable risk/reward positional play scenarios that you generally won't get with the larger 'ice' rink configuration (that was, quite frankly, adopted by our sport simply out of a default scenario during the old RHI days: most rink facilities with arena seating were/are obviously designed around the 'ice' game)...

This year unfortunately, I won't be in Hong Kong during the HKIC to see you and your Auzzie-Flyer-mates defend your 2006 Men's Championship, as I'm going to Europe with my ice hockey team to work on a very special international program we're developing, so GOOD LUCK in your return stint to "The Pearl of the Orient" and defense of yout title...!!! I myself, will be in Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Macau during Chinese New Year to play both ice and 'inline' hockey a couple of months later.

I agree with you about Chicago's Odeum Sports & Expo Center (actually in Villa Park, Illinois): BEST 'inline' floor EVER to skate and play upon, bar none. I skated there just before the very first-ever (FIRS) World Championships ever held in our sport (I believe it was in the summer of '95, if I'm not mistaken) -- our sport should've cloned that floor, 'cuz absolutely nothing like it since has played even remotely as well...!!!

[skooled]

what type of floor is it?

[ACCCT2]

At the time (back in '95) the surface was a special 'slicky-sticky' mix of semi-gloss/glossy "Roll-On" over super-smooth concrete (with maybe some kind of asphalt or synthetic 'smoothing' coat over the concrete, but under the "Roll-On") -- in any event, super-fast traction and puck-speed with an amazingly glassy-smooth feel to skate and play upon. I don't know if it's still the same or what it is now surface-wise however, as I haven't been back there in ages. Their website (www.odeumexpo.com (http://www.odeumexpo.com)) lists a lot of indoor soccer leagues apparently playing on 3 temporary artificial turfs laid on top of the inline courts (and sadly, lists no active 'inline' hockey)...

[skooled]

I just looked at pics from both these links. the SD one is one of the nicest OD concrete rinks I've seen, and the odeum looks unreal, so glassy. there is a pic of it set up for hockey, with full see through boards!!!

[ACCCT2]

"Unreal" is SO right on. Actually, the sport should take a second look at these kinds of "Roll-On" floors, as their glossiness added a lot of glamorous and highly photogenic glow, along with super-fast-&-smooth play to the game.

I think that should there ever be a truly ("paid-to-play") "professional" league anywhere in the game's immediate or distant future, it's these type of smaller (under 5,000 seats), hard-courted "Roll-On" surfaced arenas that it should be built around -- the smaller house is easier to fill and look full for sponsors (an absolute sponsorship imperative) and the glossy, glass-like floor -- besides playing considerably faster and speeding-up puck movement -- also films, frames (the game & players) and photographs so awesomely well (an absolute must for media/ broadcast partners) and is light-years better in almost every way than the cheaper and 'temporary-looking' finish of 'tiled' surfaces...

[skooled]

now this just gives people like QD ammo for the roll on surfaces. i have NEVER in all the places I have played found even a decent roll on floor, tiles have always played better.

I do however agree with you that the smaller arena/s will be so much better for say MLRH (stated to be paying players) to fill.

[ACCCT2]

Remember -- I'm talking specifically about the semi-gloss/glossy "Roll-On'' surface (whatever it was/is-still?) at the Odeum Sports & Expo Center, as there are a lot of crappy, un-polished, un-smoothed, high-friction hardcourt surfaces that totally suck (and totally suck the "ballistic" speed out of the game), so my "Roll-On" recommendation is clearly conditional and specific...

Most 'tiled' floors are going to be a bit slower than even a marginally good hardcourt, as the flex (however slight) inherent with plastic tiles definitely slows the players down a bit compared to a floor like the Odeum's, which doesn't 'give' at all, thereby transfering all power from the player's leg-stroke into faster forward motion...

[quick_dry]

excellent posts ACCCT2 (because I completely agree with you and have been beating that drum for years. If every rollerhockey player could make a pilgrimage to odeum and skate there they'd be demanding roll-on + concrete and nothing less).

We had the photographer from the Chicago Wolves (IHL?) team photograph one of our NARCh games at Odeum - in the photo you can clearly read the writing from my (at the time) Predator chassis in the reflection on the rink ( small writing on a black anodised chassis). Abso-friggin-lutely amazing. (And you could get a direct appreciation of what it is like to play on sport court vs roll-on since the top rink was sport court)

Its funny how 'back in the day' rinks were concrete + urethane, but now everyone craps on about tiled rinks and how they 'must be better, RHI used that' ignoring the reasons why RHI used it, yet most weren't around back then to know what surface the major tournaments preferred, and which they used for their finals and premium games (hint: the sport court at Odeum was only used by juniors, and for training)

Tiles are great for temporary rinks or places that don't have a smooth enough slab for the coating - and fine for whippets who have no weight or stride length. Concrete for the guys who put lots of power through every stride.

Tiles tend to be slipperier and mostly have an inconsistent slide - my guess is the difference between static and kinetic friction coefficients is greater, plus you have the high 'mechanical' grip when you slide and 'catch' on seams, but don't on most of the tile. Orbcourt seems more consistent than sport court or ice court.

skooled: which rinks have you played at?

[ACCCT2]

Personally, "tiles" are great for temporary 'ice' rink conversions and/or outdoor rinks that might have to deal with humidity, morning-dew and wet weather issues -- using a multi-purpose 'vented' tile that allows for quick-drying (via 'drainage' through the "vents" and a light breeze) makes sense in this regard...

But if you're going all the way to an enclosed and 'dedicated' roller skating/hockey facility -- even to a semi-enclosed, multi-purpose rink facility like the KPCC in Hong Kong -- why not go ALL the way with a top-notch, high-speed, super-smooth and glossy/glassy "Roll-On" surface like the Odeum's -- being 'covered', weather and 'drainage' shouldn't be a problem and quite frankly, rink maintainence should be considerably easier with a well-laid/well-made "Roll-On" floor like the Odeum's (notice how I always qualify my preferences and recommendations with specific references to the Odeum's floor)...

[skooled]

QD, I've played on every rink that I know of in Aus apart from PH and the ACT rink with orbcourt. I played on one in hawai'i too....

[MajorTomFoolery]

From my experience, tiled floors are good initially, but they're hard to clean. I don't mean you have to spend more time cleaning them. I mean you might NEVER get them clean. It's not like that at all rinks, but you best be careful about who you get them from.

[quick_dry]

MJT I notice that too, they also seem to have a real problem with static charge attracting the dust and crud.

[ACCCT2]

Hi Guyz -- I'm back to discussing much more meaningful things for the sport -- you know, like bringing back more floors like the Odeum's, as it seems that talking about what's wrong image and marketing-wise with our sport, as well as daring to speak of anything truly paid-to-play "professional" unfortuantely, but inevitably devolves into an immature, invective-laden PIHA-podium (OOOPS, I hope I didn't just allow them a chance to 'hijack' this thread now)...

[quick_dry]

hehe, so I won't ask what the rink PIHA players like to play on is? ;)

I'm just glad there is finally another person who knows what i'm talking about when I tell all these 'sport court is awesome' types that they don't know awesome till they've skated Odeum.

Althoug, in Sydney, Australia - bringing back floors (any floor, but particularly Odeum-like) is THE most meaningful thing for inline hockey right now.

[MajorTomFoolery]

Yeah, sport court (especially if the plan is to be outdoors) is not the way to go.

I always wanted a rink to make it like air hockey :) where air jets shoot all the fuzz out of the holes, and you glide real nice-like. I know it's unrealistic, but a lad can dream...

[zipyaj]

Adding to the information in this thread as an FYI...

[2008 article] New boards at rink to soften impact for Temecula hockey players
Temecula (California) has budgeted $271,000 for the project, with the money to come from development-impact fees.
See more @ source:
http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_sinline29.27f0890.html


[2008 article] Roller rink becomes reality for Army and Navy Academy
$250,000: Approximate value of the rink materials transported from a Corona hockey club to the Army and Navy Academy campus (Carlsbad, CA)
$200,000: Approximate total cost of rink project
See more @ source:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20080413-9999-mz1mc13rolle.html


From Conception to Construction
(2002 Info: Chino Hills, California)
Inline hockey rinks aren't cheap. Chino Hills' two rinks are each 180' X 85', with a surface of sealed cement with roll-on coating. Plexiglas boards encase each rink, and each rink has two player benches, two penalty boxes and a scorekeeper's booth. Rinks, of course, also require outdoor lighting and scoreboards. Cost? "Approximately $200,000 to build," says Cordura.

(2002 Info: Hialeah, Florida)
Robbie Walker, supervisor of parks and recreation in Hialeah, FL, estimates that his city's two 184' X 84' rinks, including lighting and scoreboard, cost roughly $225,000 each.


Good luck!

[old hockey mom]

There are three outdoor and/or semi enclosed rinks that I know about in the Peninsula/South Bay area of Northern California.

Here are their websites in case anyone wants to check them out. I'm sure any of the contacts listed would be happy to give you their insight.

http://coastsiderollerhockey.com/ This rink was just opened about a week ago. They worked in conjunction with the Half Moon Bay Boys and Girls Club for funding. I know that they didn't use a sport court surface, as this is right by the ocean and it gets way too damp.

http://www.roosevelthockey.net/ This program is put on by the city of San Jose. Free equipment rental!! They just recently covered it as it got way too hot in the summer.

http://www.penaltybox.org/ And finally, this was a rink in Sunnyvale, Ca. It was a sportcourt that was not covered and it worked out OK. Unfortunately they lost their lease.

Good luck!

[quick_dry]

200k is less than I'd expected, what would be the estimated land value for those places?
you guys are lucky, any available council land we have like that down here becomes cricket/rugby/soccer grounds.

[ngodavid]

Here in san jose i play at an outdoor rink it gets kinda dirty sometimes and when it gets hot the tiles seem to pop up which sucks and when it rains the rink is so dirty and isnt playable .

[zipyaj]

Let's Face It, eh?

Outdoors or semi-exposed means just that; exposed to the elements and the inherint issues and even dangers associated with it.

You can't skate when it's wet or GO BOOM! And with that comes liability.

Semi-exposed rinks are also subject to moisture and humidity. Too much humidity, residual or ambient moisture can kill safe play.

Proper drainage should ALWAYS be a major civic engineering consideration in any outdoor or semi-exposed rink... if rain seeps under the tiles it creates a danger, shuts down games, and adds rinks costs for rescheduling league play, among other considerations.

You can't skate (well) if it's too dusty or GO BOOM! And mostly say, ouch! Even on a slightly windy day under the best of conditions, even great players take big slams and have blow-outs on dustry rinks, whether covered (semi-exposed) or not! And this is true regardless of the surface (substrate).

But It's not Always the Surface!
In the fall of 2007, Southern California's Orange County experienced major brush fires in the area that shut down ALL OUTSIDE ACTIVITIES for over one week due to poor air quality. The major roller hockey facility in the area, the semi-exposed, fully-scheduled, 3-rink 949 Roller Hockey Center of Irvine, was closed to roller hockey! The ripple-effect of re-scheduling took through the Spring to resolve.

A lesson for outdoor and semi-exposed facilities, leagues and teams: Force Majeure! Be sure to add it into your agreements, into your planning, and into your expectations!


Skate 4 Fun! Skate Safe!

[old hockey mom]

Hi ngodavid,

What San Jose rink are you referring to?

Thanks.

[ddawgz]

I play at Roosevelt Roller hockey rink.


The rink actually isn't covered we're trying to get the city of San Jose to put more money into the rink to get a roof one day considering our problems when it rains, dust, and heat. Theres an organization called West Coast Roller Hockey who is trying to take over Roosevelt Roller hockey and manage the rink and one day maybe more people will come play here

[old hockey mom]

Wow, I thought that Roosevelt had been covered last year. I know it gets hotter than heck in the summer. Good luck!