Olympics [Archive] - Inline Hockey Central

ACCCT2

09-24-2007, 03:46 PM

Actually, FIRS was offered the chance by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) to have 'inline' roller hockey added to the Olympics Games in the mid-90's, but being "FIRSt" a classical "quad"/"figures" NGB, they tried "twist" the IOC's arms by making their (FIRS') acceptance of the IOC offer contingent on the IOC adding "quad"/"figures" (as well as other non-'inline' hockey disciplines like "speed", etc.), which the IOC refused (then) to consider and therefore caused our sport to lose probably its BEST-ever chance of becoming an "Olympic" sport...

It's pretty much very well-known within inner International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) circles that many of the IIHF people consider 'inline' hockey as something that they should not be in any way 'sanctioning' or involved with and many of them want out of it, but because of pressure from USA Hockey (USAH) -- and the fact that USAH (illegally?) used ice hockey membership monies to (illegally?) 'purchase' the National Inline Hockey Association (NIHA) membership 'sanctioning' (and 'insuring'?) rights (?) without NIHA members or USAH members specific and expected approval, which should quite frankly speak volumes of their true (and legally questionable?) commitment to the sport -- the IIHF has been, needless to say, a very reluctant, ineffective and non-advocating "advocate" of the sport and its "Olympic" ambitions and potential...

Finally, because of the ridiculously irresponsible, short-sighted and selfishly-motivated FIRS vs IIHF war of attrition over the sport's international 'sanctioning' rights -- "serving the good order of who?", I might sarcastically ask (especially of the IIHF) -- a "winnerless war" that has probably hopelessly 'poisoned' any sponsor demand for its "Olympic" inclusion -- I might hazard to say that there's not a "proverbial-snowball's-chance-in-Hell" that we'll be seeing our beloved sport gloriously "be-medalled" with "Olympic Gold, Silver and Bronze" anytime soon...

A little related 'aside' you might be interested in --

USAH was expecting, and actually, financially 'betting' ice hockey membership monies on the IOC eventually RE-considering their ("FIRSt") spurned offer to the sport's NGB's -- USAH ONLY saw the millions and millions of "Olympic" sponsorship dollars dancing around their heads (and into their bank and 4-star-plus expense accounts) whenever they thought of the millions of grass-roots players of the game in the USA -- unfortunately, this was well-past-the-90's "buzz" and excitement for the game, and especially as the world-wide "grass-roots" participation does not translate or exist (enough at least) elsewhere in the IOC's world for the IOC to "RE-consider" its position on the sport's true "Olympic" viabilty, that 'bet-upon' expectation of the IOC "RE-considering" never panned-out as planned for USAH's 'investment' (of hard-earned ice hockey membership monies) in the sport...

So NOW, USAH is stuck with the "hopelessly-lame-sure-thing-of-a-racehorse" that they (illegally?) used ice hockey membership monies to "buy" into -- very much like an 'embezzler' using pension/company/membership monies -- without proper and expected permission -- to facilitate or "buy into" an outside "sure thing" of a business or investment for themselves, eh...!?! If USAH ice hockey membership were to actually do a comprehensive and thorough "forensic accounting" on USAH's books, expenditures, contracts, hirings and financial shennanigans, hmmm, what else would they find? What else don't they know about "who" and "what" and "where" their hard-earned membership monies are really "going" to and being spent upon? Might they (USAH membership) even have cause to bring civil and even plausibly criminal charges for such "misuse" and/or "misappropriation" of their hard-earned money and membership funds?

Interesting, umm, "opinion", isn't it...

Oh, and BTW -- FIRS is the ONLY "officially" and "legally" IOC-sanctioned International Governing Body for the sport (hence, there is indeed "a clear structure" internationally) -- any claim by the IIHF or USAH to the contrary would be an outright lie and/or misrepresentation designed to have IIHF-Inline and especially USAH-Inline membership keep sending in their hard-earned membership monies, fees and dues (for their very expensive and "lame" horse). I also believe that legally -- that is, in accordance with US Legal Code ("US Federal Law") -- even the United States Olympic Committee (USOC) is obligated to acknowlege and recognize the FIRS-affiliated NGB, USA Roller Sports (USARS), as the sole "official" NGB of the sport in the USA.

I think we all know about the IIHF and its history and reach within the sport via its IIHF-Inline wing. As for the International Inline-Skater-Hockey Federation (IISHF), I don't think that an organization that apparently rosters a grand total of 9 countries (Austria; Denmark; Germany; Israel; Netherlands; Poland; Russia; Switzerland and the UK) from basically 1 continent (Europe, with Israel being the only exception) can really call itself a legitimate contender for the international IOC "Olympic" sanctioning/governance rights (and besides, IISHF play uses a ball).

dan sangiorgio

09-25-2007, 02:55 AM

well i think that if usa inline was sanction by the ioc instead of firs and usars things would be in a much better situtation usa inline aligns its with narch and the ncrha. while firs wants to promote gay **** like roller dancing to oic. also its very clear where all the top players play..... narch, ncrha, piha is starting to come on strong as well. so say what you want about usa hockey insurance fraud or whatever.

ACCCT2

09-25-2007, 03:09 PM

THIS is a PRIME example of why the sport goes absolutely nowhere -- the inexplicably small-minded, idiotic and ignorant acceptance of mediocrity, malfeasance, corruption, fraud and misappropriation of legally-defined international "sanctioning" rights simply because some ill-informed (to say the least!) players seem to think that (1) this kind of behavior is actually OK, and that (2) NARCh, NCRHA and PIHA actually GET anything from USAH-Inline in its FREELY plastering their USAH-Inline name and logo all-over these entities own hard work and membership, and (3) that simply because USAH-Inline is smart enough to get COST-FREE advertising and association, as well as UN-due credit for having ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ACTUALLY BUILDING the league/sport entities "where all the top players play...NARCh, NCRHA, PIHA...", you actually think that THIS does ANY good for the sport? GOOD THING for all of us that YOU're NOT running things, eh...!?!

And lastly, I personally don't have a lot of respect for anyone who thinks that denigrating and insulting other worthy and highly-practiced sports (and by extension, insinuated "orientations") with what's clearly meant to be negatively-construed terms like "gay" being carelessly and callously used in a derogatory and demeaning way -- normally, I myself would refrain from intellectually 'descriptive' terms like "small-minded, idiotic and ignorant", but I think that YOU clearly earned them in your post...

William Bourque

09-25-2007, 04:57 PM

You keep saying "(illegally?)" in your post. What information do you have that states it's illegal, or are you just unsure?

dan sangiorgio

09-25-2007, 05:40 PM

usa hockey people may not put any work into the success of things such as narch and ncrha ect but i bet if they were the national governing board the people like darren from narch would hopefully get a chance to put there efforts into making roller hockey legit in terms of ioc and even ncaa which will more likly come first on a small scale.
and i didn't say people who skate dance are gay i used the word "gay"(notice that i used quotations right btw) in terms of it being lame, boring, not of interest on the level of other sports the i would consider as roller sports which would be like x game stuff. and i would also like to see some proof of all this "illigal stuff. as a player that has played travel ice in the atlatic district at the highest levels growing up i would say usa hockey has its act together and is much more profesional then the aau hockey.

Also maybe you should post your name and what backround in hockey you have

Brianh

09-25-2007, 07:00 PM

He is a "fossil" from the advertising industry

quick_dry

09-25-2007, 10:07 PM

I think it'd be hard to say that the infighting between FIRS and IIHF hasn't hurt the sport. it is a shame every country has to jump through hoops held up by either IIHF or FIRS affiliated bodies because theyr'e the ones with IOC recognition when a body that only cared about inline hockey would serve the sport much better - much the way IIHF cares about ice hockey.

AFAIK the quad hockey in Barcelona was not surprising as the version FIRS chose, but IIRC it was a dismal failure. I think chances might be better of getting inline in as the Asian teams improve, given inclusion in big events like Asian games, and then host nations getting to choose demonstration sports.

skooled

09-26-2007, 07:29 AM

I think roller just needs to pick an association. it seems to be the straw that will break the camels back

ACCCT2

09-26-2007, 12:48 PM

What IS it with some of you people (especially those with almost the unbelievably ignorant logic like "dan sangiorgio" anyway) -- you wonder why the game is in the sad and sickly sorry state that it's clearly in image-wise; you wonder why absolutely NO major sponsors support it in spite of its "grass-roots" participation numbers -- GEEZ, just look at your own attitudes towards those shiesterish "shinney-charletans" who pretend and presume to "run" and "sanction" the game -- you actually think it's OK for a National Governing Body (NGB) to violate Federal Law, commit fraud, malfeasance, anti-trust, tort, mis-use and misappropriate hard-earned membership and sposorship monies, as well as do basically nothing for the sport --

ASK Darren Goodwin (of NARCh) just "how much" USAH-Inline "contributes" (financially or otherwise) to have their USAH-Inline name and logo plastered all-over Darren's hard work, tournaments and business (especially in light of the thousands of NARCh players and teams paying their hard-earned money/fees to USAH-Inline for NARCh events) --

ASK any of the NCRHA officials or administrators just "how much" USAH-Inline "contributes" or "gives back" (financially or otherwise) to again, have their USAH-Inline name and logo plastered all-over the NCRHA's hard work, organization and events (again, especially in light of the nearly 200 collegiate and university teams and 2,500 players paying their hard-earned money/fees to USAH-Inline for NCRHA events) --

ASK Charlie Yoder (of PIHA) or any of the PIHA owners, officials or players just exactly "how much" USAH-Inline "contributes" (financially or otherwise) to the "development" and "growth" of the PIHA league/concept for, yet again, having USAH-Inline's name and logo plastered all-over the hard work, dedication and financial commitmet and risk of dozens of PIHA owners and sponsors, as well as thousands of PIHA players (and yet again, especially in light of the thousands of players paying their hard-earned money/fees to USAH-Inline for PIHA leagues, tournaments and events) --

While I suspect that any one of the above-mentioned NARCh, NCRHA or PIHA owners, officials and/or administrators might not be brave or candid or confident enough to say anything "on the record", I guarantee you, they're probably wondering, "YEAH, just exactly WHAT DO we get for that, anyway?"

I may be a "fossil", but after all of the nonsensical, amateurish and almost delusional ideas, propositions and logic that I've read on this site on how to secure the advertising, sponsorship and media exposure and support that the game needs for especially "professional" viability, I know that absolutely know a heck-uva LOT MORE than virtually anyone else on this board does about advertising, marketing and sponsorship --

I also know that absolutely know a heck-uva LOT MORE than a lot here do (and especially what "dan sangiorgio" does) about USA Hockey and its NGB "operation" supposedly having its "act together", supposedly being "more professional" and what really goes on with "how" and "what" and "on who" they spend hard-earned membership and sponsorship monies -- in fact, just ask yourself some reasonable questions regarding easily researched and documented -- EASY questions like:

Where DOES well over $20,000,000 USD in hard-earned member and sponsorship monies "go" and get spent upon...??? On "who"...??? On "what"...??? And "How much"...??? --

How many UN-bid, UN-announced and UN-contested 5-&-6-figure "contracts", "hirings", and (essentially "retirement") "consultancies" DOES hard-earned member and sponsorship monies pay for...??? --

How DOES USAH get way with the clear sham of a National Team Development Program (NTDP) that essentially takes a D-1 college ice hockey player and, WOW, turns them into, OH, WOW -- GET THIS, a D-1 college ice hockey player -- all at the wonderfully UN-bid cost to hard-earned member and sponsorship monies of well over $40,000 USD per-player...!?! --

How DOES USAH get away with actually cutting the USA Women's player stipend and training time (while USAH officials, families and cronies enjoy a 4-&-5-star lifestyle at hard-earned membership expense), smugly justifying their "cutting" decision with their shinney-sage logic that, "It's going to come down to Canada and the USA anyway, so why do we need to spend the extra time and money on them..." -- and in the "2-horse-race" that was supposed to be USAH's "sure thing" of at least a "Silver" medal in the XX Olympic Winter Games in Turin, Italy, the US Women finished, what...3rd...!?! --

With well over $20,000,000 USD in hard-earned member and sponsorship monies available for the expected purpose of doing so, as well as having, oh, just around 60 "National Staff" people at just the USAH "National" offices alone, how DOES USAH get away with their inexplicably and inexcusably NOT arranging-for and actually getting the USA Men's National Olympic Team to Turin and the XX Olympic Winter Games -- especially when USAH officials made DAMN SURE that their own families, friends, cronies and selves were afforded that very same apparently too-expensive luxury at membership expense for themslves (this was very well documented with Mike Modano's outrage at USAH for the fiasco) ...!?! --

With a population of over 300,000,000, as well as over 7,000,000 known ice hockey players and over 500,000 USAH registered ice hockey players (and again, well over $20,000,000 USD in hard-earned member and sponsorship monies to "assist" in what should be a much easier "goal" with all of these numbers figured in), WHY HASN'T USAH gotten MORE "bang-for-OUR-bucks" in terms of "Olympic" and "World Championship" medals...??? --

WHY DOES USAH have SO MANY "same faces" (as Mike Modano sarcastically observed) associated with DECADES-long history of not just losing, but inexplicable embarrassment and failure (and ALL generously paid-for with hard-earned member and sponsorship monies) still there -- they certainly have NO PROBLEM letting "can't-cut-it-anymore-losers" like Brian Leetch and Cammi Granato go with unprofessionally humiliating and rude treatment -- WHY ARE those "same faces" at USAH (responsible for the losing) still there collecting their clearly un-earned paychecks and spending millions and millions of hard-earned member and sponsorship monies on 4-&-5-star "junkets" around the globe, basically to pat themselves and each other on the back, play golf and go sailing...??? --

Hmmm, "act together" and "more professiona", eh -- YEAH, I can REALLY see that one...!?!

As for "dan sangiorgio" (or anyone for that matter) needing "some proof" of "illegal stuff" and all that is easily "provable" -- do your own research and due-diligence, as I absolutely don't work-for or answer to any of you -- ALL of what I've mentioned (and YES, MORE!) is easily researchable and readily available...

And finally -- I may indeed be "a fossil", but I also know a derogatory and innappropriate 'slur' whenver I see or hear one, and that was a "slur", as well as clearly intended as one...

MBurke

09-26-2007, 01:54 PM

The argument gets more and more convincing to remove the ability to format text on here every day...I'm not here to be the grammar police or MLA, but please try to cut down the formatting on your posts. They're extremely difficult to read when half of every sentence is boldface, and I think that writing that is poor or difficult to read causes many to skim your writings, which means the valid and salient points that you do have are getting lost.

I'm only going to comment on my area of expertise.

ASK any of the NCRHA officials or administrators just "how much" USAH-Inline "contributes" or "gives back" (financially or otherwise) to again, have their USAH-Inline name and logo plastered all-over the NCRHA's hard work, organization and events (again, especially in light of the nearly 200 collegiate and university teams and 2,500 players paying their hard-earned money/fees to USAH-Inline for NCRHA events) --

Subsidy of a large portion of the cost of our national event, staffing and travel expenses for said event (including Bill Courtland doing live play-by-play radio), banners and other provisions for teams that win at the event, plus travel to and staffing of various regional events, such as our ECRHA Ref Clinic this weekend and Columbus Day tournament. Not to mention that I've worked individually with them on numerous documents and they're always available to help when I pick up the phone with a question or request.

I'm not going to say they're breaking the bank on their relationship with NCRHA, but the insinuation that they just take membership money and run (from NCRHA) is unfounded at best.

ACCCT2

09-26-2007, 02:00 PM

MBurke

09-26-2007, 02:09 PM

I forgot, you'd rather have the simplistic nonsense of "who's better" and "where do you live", right...

Look at it this way, Mike, you should be happy that an old "fossil" like me has figured out how to use the editing feature;)...!!!

Post edited above with actual content.

Happy reading.

I'll add that USAHIL does not PLASTER their name over anything really - the only spot where they're on anything of NCRHA's in a prominent fashion is that of the National Tournament (which as mentioned above is subsidized heavily and staffed)

ACCCT2

09-26-2007, 02:26 PM

MBurke

09-26-2007, 02:58 PM

And you think that this outstanding USAH-Inline "contribution" is proportionately worth what they take out of the players in fees and their clearly questionable right to represent themselves as the game's NGB in soliciting sponsors for more money for them to spend on themselves...???

See point below.

From my ("fossil-like") knowlege and experience, the NCRHA (as well as NARCh and PIHA) could do much better going directly to potential sponsors -- cut out the totally unneccessary USAH-Inline (or AAU, whatever, etc.) middlemen who are essentially giving the players a token fee of what should ALL be the players'...

Potentially. I know that my own look into insurance policies yielded numbers
FAR higher per player than any membership fee we pay or were proposed by AAU/USAHIL/etc. Anything extra we get is gravy IMO.

Finally, it'd be interesting if anyone actually took the time to research "some proof" of what I posted. I think it's amazing that my 'form' seems to be more important than my 'content'...

I could post a bunch of articles concerning this, but when form is bad enough that it obfuscates the actual meaning of the content, it becomes more important. Thus why the current trend in design is 'keep it simple' - the less form, the easier it is to figure out the content.

P.S.: In MY "fossil-like" world of advertising any logo placement not of miniscule proportions is "PLASTER-ing" (and worth something!)...!!!

And it's not being given for nothing...

ACCCT2

09-26-2007, 04:47 PM

Actually, Mike, and with all due respect, I think that for both of us this falls under we both "know what we know", eh, as I've researched, inquired and gotten far better numbers and insurance/injury/liability coverage policies, with far greater comprehensive coverage and benefits (than USAH-Inline) in my own research on the subject -- so let's just leave it at that.

It seems that some people are inexplicably convinced that they're somehow actually getting their (hard-earned) money's worth from USAH and USAH-Inline, and even more astoundingly further, feel the need to defend an organization that has broken Federal Law, disregards IOC protocols and legal territories, as well as displays an UN-ending and UN-professional contempt for those hard-working members, players, moms and dads who pay for their (USAH) salaries, expense accounts, "consultancies" and "feather-bedding" scams and shams, as well as for others (like Brian Leetch and Cammi Granato) who have served our "Red, White & Blue" colors so honorably and well over the years -- I myself, choose to call a dirty, rotten, stinking spade a "dirty, rotten, stinking spade"...

As for "form" being more important than "content", I think first of all, it's all a matter of opinion -- you have your's; others' have their's; and I have mine -- I think that because of the almost ignorant incredulity and mis-informed missives I'm constantly having to read on the subject (NGB's place and status in the game), I admittedly tend to put a bit of emotional emphasis in what I'm trying to convey...through, hmmm, your wonderfully (TOO?) easy-to-use formatting feature...

Kittenkrusher

09-26-2007, 06:21 PM

holy **** this post is like the olympics of banter, whats a NGB? Goddamn can i cuss here(hows my form?) either way i say **** the bull****, if someone is pimpn the sport with out due redguard and service cut theyr ass up. ACCt2 im looking at what your sayn and honestly im kinda lost but thanks for the trail, it will be pursued. After reading Money Players written by Bruce Dowbiggin, I will be mindful.:D ... you see this Emoticon, it is not a grin it is me biting the **** out of my tounge. And to the future of this sport I must tell you blatantly and blissfuly, the river finds a way.

Listening to Kanye West: You Can Negotiate With Me

William Bourque

09-26-2007, 06:22 PM

As for "dan sangiorgio" (or anyone for that matter) needing "some proof" of "illegal stuff" and all that is easily "provable" -- do your own research and due-diligence, as I absolutely don't work-for or answer to any of you -- ALL of what I've mentioned (and YES, MORE!) is easily researchable and readily available...

That's Fine. I was under the impression that in order to be taken seriously you have to provide the facts to your audience. In this case the readers of the website. I can't leave my post at the newspaper and walk into the editor's office with a story idea without providing the facts to him. Additionally, i can't give a speech on the effects of slots in Pennsylvania without providing the facts as well. I am not going to give you a speech on education, because obviously you are a well educated and well informed individual. However, you lose the respect of your audience when you fail to validate your claims. You seem to expect everyone on here to take your word for what it is, or spend the time researching something they don't care about. Many people pay there $25 fee to USA Hockey not caring what they are paying for, even if its only a poorly put together magazine once a month. Some people just care about playing hockey and could care less about what is going beyond the game they are playing in. If you want the members of the organization to care, you might want to provide the facts first. That may be direct quotes, or just a link to a few news articles.

Wingman

09-26-2007, 06:32 PM

Just out of curiosity, ACCCT2, do you even play inline hockey?

Kittenkrusher

09-26-2007, 06:41 PM

You need to post your facts for sho, eitherway asuming your well intentioned and did your foot work i have mad respect for you lookn out bro, you seem to be coming from at least a good place watchin for peoples interest. I think that MBurke dude is still at little polarized from the cold war or something, and by the way ******* dont insult us by sayn form over content its both, check the trends substance is in with the kiddies... as well as texture:D Treat your girl right:eek:

ACCCT2

09-26-2007, 06:55 PM

Honestly, I really don't care whether any of you take me seriously or not (that's not really what this forum's about anyway, right?) -- if you really want to know what the LAW is and what's really going on, well then, as I stated earlier, do your own research, everything's all there to be found -- I dare you -- "prove" me wrong if you're so sure that I'm wrong or somehow mistaken about the "facts" that I've put forth. As for the assumption that I'm somehow "expecting" everyone else "on here" to take my words for what I claim them to be, all I can say is that for some reason a lot of you seem to take unbelievably personal umbrage at whatever I try to say, no matter how well reasoned, stated or evidenced.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that USAH (and USAH-Inline) are indeed counting on the sad, but inevitably accurate "not caring what they are paying for" fact that, as you said, "...Some people just care about playing hockey and could care less about what is going beyond the game they are playing in..." -- kinda' reminds me of that old "fossil-like" saying --

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing..." -- Yeah, that's it, as long as I've got my own patheticly inconsequential conditions met, it doesn't matter what's "rotten" in the state of Denmark, eh...!?!

And to those who optimistically and enthusiastically think of (ALL?) things like "Kittenkrusher" apparently does, I say --

"Follow Bliss." -- That's it, just "Follow Bliss." ("the river" indeed always "finds a way")

And just so y'all know -- I DO "Blissfully" play 'inline' roller hockey almost every day in NYC's Central Park, as well as sponsor, "GM" and play-for the single-most internationally traveled ice hockey team in the world (hence, my very extensive experience with USAH at virtually all levels and intersections)..!!!

An evidenciary "clue" -- START with reading (cover-to-cover) the Ted Stevens Olympic And Amateur Sports Act (Title 36, chapter 17, section 391 United States Code -- "Federal Law", dudes!) -- THEN, carefully read ALL of USAH's (and USAH-Inline's) forms, policies, fees, bylaws and year-end corporate reports (and plans therein) -- this should give you a really good start on things ("the facts") if you're carefully taking notes, cross-referencing (between the LAW and USAH's materials) and paying very close, intelligent and patient attention (as I know a lot of you are clearly incapable of)...

quick_dry

09-26-2007, 09:41 PM

ACCT2: can you check you PMs and get back to me, thanks. (BTW, has your team travelled out to Australia yet?)

Anyway, back on topic:
Given what I know from involvement with NGBs in my own neck of the woods, I'm fully prepared to believe that funds are 'not always spent in the best interests of the members', or other fiascos like Dave Easter and World Inline Cup. But giving links or detailed sources would be handy for those of us who aren't intimately knowledgable of USAH and the various characters involved.

I'm more than capable of reading and understanding the statutes/legislation, etc - but many of us don't have the time to spend digging through the details to find it all, if we had links or some concrete information it'd be really handy to see what is hapening over there.

Wingman

09-26-2007, 10:58 PM

And just so y'all know -- I DO "Blissfully" play 'inline' roller hockey almost every day in NYC's Central Park,Well... for someone who plays hockey, it really looks like you try to dis or bring down almost every inline hockey league/organization I know of. That might not be the case, but your bold letter and italic quotation fiasco really gives-off an angry "tone".

ACCCT2

09-26-2007, 11:00 PM

I don't have the time, nor inclination to patiently "hold hands" and take people (who aren't willing to do so themselves) through the "chapter and verse" of legal statutes, case-building and legal strategies that would/will remedy the situations. And I'm certainly not going to give away anything ("on here") of "strategically legal" significance that might be key in a civil and/or prosecution of any cases (or cases) against USAH and/or the IIHF...

What I will say is that I know for an absolute "fact" that there is indeed a very comprehensive and broadly drawn "forensic" and "legal" case presently (even as we post) being built and brought aginst USAH and the IIHF for just exactly what I've put forth in my posts...and MUCH, MUCH MORE that HASN'T been -- USAH (and the IIHF) absolutely WILL be held accountable in a US Federal Court for all that they have so arrogantly initiated against the best interests of ice and 'inline' hockey loving players, teams and organizations both in the USA and abroad...

Funny you should ask about our coming to Australia, as our recently planned our trip there (as well as to New Zealand) was the victim of USAH (and IIHF) malfeasance, tort, slander and libel, as well as their absolutely "illegal" overseas "sanctioning" practices...

In the meantime, "quick_dry", I'll check my "PM" and get back to you later...

As for "Wingman's" comments, you're absolutely right about the "angry tone" -- too bad most of you are too easily (and willingly?) fooled and taken to get "angry" at anything that someone arrogantly and confidently does to you because they too know (TOO WELL?) that a good portion (if not most) of you are in a state of "not caring what they are paying for" enough to actually get "angry" about DO-nothing NGB's ripping-off the hard-earned member and sponsorship monies that are meant for YOU, but spent on THEM...

quick_dry

09-27-2007, 12:44 AM

I wasn't suggesting hand holding, but a little example would be nice.

What level players/type of team is your travelling team that you needed to get the IIHF/USAH involved? We frequently have teams from overseas travel here to tour - Canada, Russia, USA. I don't know of any major fiascos with the imports in our National league getting their ITCs either (a few guys in other teams were slow, but my team had no worries).

I will say that when itrying to negotiate an affiliation between our inline hockey body and ice hockey to get IIHF and thus IOC recognition they tried to take a huge advantage over having us over a barrell.

Malfeasance?! sounds pretty serious, why would they try and sabotage a trip? What sort of sanctioning issues - they wanted you to pay fees or something?

I'm sure you already have your contacts over here, but if a trip over here is still on the cards I could put you in contact with the people to get demonstration games setup.

Kittenkrusher

09-27-2007, 01:23 AM

Just a random comment why the **** didnt the NHLPA just start theyr own league, i mean theyr rich. I really think the owners an bettman ran hockey first because its kinda veiwed as the most potentialy subversive of sports enterprises, a bunch of middle class and upper middle class white kids... its like the hippies of pro sports an ****. Honestly **** the NHL, its only a vessel for the game anyway. You know torontoians would burn **** down just to keep the leafs name and theyd jack the ****n cup and together with monteal hide it till the playoffs. **** now thats a good reason for a military coup in the great white north, canadian Special forces could deliver the cup, man i could just see a bunch of ex Junior guys slap shotn grenades at trevor lindens punk ass. Seriouly cant he be tried for treason? Just to be real Im not an anti-capitalist per-se, but the only reason inline is still around is because the rink owners actualy love the game. If the players want to **** on the owners in the NHL they should just start buying all rinks in the towns across north america, and tell the next generation of players not to sign with the PA, in ten years there would be enough talent unbinded to the league to relaunch 6, sometimes its worth starting over. O and in ten years if america the beautiful hasnt collaped yet, there will be enough indy media and acces to succesful break bettmans ass like a toothpick, History has officaly resumed. Like a wise man once said "Money doesnt care who burns it".

Center_ice

09-27-2007, 01:36 AM

Cosmo,

Not many understand what is going on here. People have been getting ripped off in inline hockey for years and you think your few post are going to change that. Win your lawsuit and maybe it will help make a difference. Get USAH out of inline so that this sport can move forward.

BTW, they can't prove you wrong because many are not involved enough to know where to start nor do they care.

Ted Stevens Sports Act? Now your really getting deep, most don't even know who the NGB is for inline let alone the Ted Stevens Sports Act.

RichardGraham

09-27-2007, 06:56 AM

Mike,

Is this the same Ted Stevens who is currently being investigated by the FBI?

Just curious.

RichardGraham

09-27-2007, 07:34 AM

Hi Mike,

As you seem to be as down on FIRS as you are the IIHF, USA Hockey and PIHA, what organization in our sport DO you support (if any), and if the answer is none, are you angling to create yet another organization to run the sport of inline hockey, with you in charge?

Somehow, that seems where this conversation is going, and frankly, I don't think that's going to work. Here's why:

You are really a non-entity in our sport, because as far as I can tell from all your posts, you have never actually created any significant inline hockey event. You direct negative energy to nearly every entity in our sport, many that have been around for years, whether they live up to your standards or not, but it comes back to the question: What have YOU done? What would YOU do differently? Why should anyone listen to you? You may think that you've answered these questions, but your extremely "creative" way of posting messages is hard to follow, not user-friendly, self-promotiing, angry, selfish, close-minded... hmm... sorta like your description of all the entities in our great sport that you continually attack.

Frankly, I'm tired of it, along with, apparently, many other Inline Hockey Central readers.

I have a suggestion: Why don't you spend some of your impressive energy on creating something in our sport that we can all get behind, instead of trashing other organizations?

That way, maybe you'll have less time, post shorter messages, work harder for the sport, learn that a little respect goes a long way, and be a little less of a pain in the ass. Right now, you sound like a conspiracy theorist, and frankly, I'm sick of it. Not everyone is smart enough to create a viable conspiracy, keep it hidden from everyone else but a "select few" (you'd be in that group, wouldn't you, Mike?), and laugh at us rubes all the way to the bank.

Don't go away, and don't go away mad, but take some time away to think of the impression you're making, and see if you really want to be known as the "Inline Hockey Crank." The alternative is to work hard to be someone who actually does something wonderful for our great sport, for which I think you will be well rewarded.

I think that would benefit us all.

Kittenkrusher

09-27-2007, 11:52 AM

hey mr editor why dont you bust a quote of the guy trashin PIHA or NARCH . all he has said with regurd to the tourney circuts is that theyr geting taken advantage of. For an editor your pretty ****n blind. Im done with this thread (hopefuly) if the best you can do is bank that IHC readers/contributers wont read ACCT2s words in context, and then proceed to put bull**** in his mouth, you should have the common decency to rest your little fingers. If your a hired gun i hope your handler got a cash back guarntee, because you are either blind or a predjudical little worm. From what I see hes given props to all thesse grassroots organised organisations. Unless i missed something let me know. All im sayn is the nature of the overall sport, its soul if you will is derived from a ****ing pond, and if you ref in such a preferential way on the street/pond I dare say you would get your ass beat. Perhaps you should go **** to some more Ann Ryand novels. Sorry Mr. but what you just attempted seems like a weak ass attempt at smearing this guy, and thats just bull**** postureing, so unless you wanna act right get stuck.

ACCCT2

09-27-2007, 01:03 PM

WOW...!?! --

Do you IHC guys get paid (or something?) to be certain people's "hatchet men" at the "point of attack"...???

Why do so many of you think that I have any or all of the answers ('cuz I myself have never said or even intimated so)...???

First of all, I've NEVER stated my name, Richard, so I think that in the interest of editorial integrity, objectivity and standards, you absolutely shouldn't 'assume' or 'divulge' anything that a someone (a 'member") entrusts you with. Nor "smear" them so.

Secondly, I'm not "down on" anybody that clearly doesn't deserve it. I've always given proper and deserved credit to all of the hard-work and commitment that NARCh, the NCRHA and PIHA people put into their organizations, events and teams, heck, even their respective "images" (as much as I personally think the "images" portion of things leaves a lot to be desired and improved upon -- but that's only my opinion, right, and like any and all of each of you, I'm entitled to it).

I'm definitely not "angling to create yet another organization to run the sport of inline hockey, with (me) in charge" -- nothing could be further from the truth (where on earth, or even in any of my posts did you get this one?).

I don't need to justify or evidence anything of what I have or haven't "done" (certainly no more than anyone else here who has their own opinion about things). Bottom line is, I've had more than enough experience with the various and sundry international ice and 'inline' NGB's and their shennigans to get sick of it (as well as "on to it") and as I stated earlier (in my own wordy way and opinion), call a dirty, rotten, stinking spade a "dirty, rotten, stinking spade', and that's all...

And who are you -- as an "editor" -- to proclaim anyone a "non-entity" in "our sport" -- anyone who plays, who passionately, dilligently and devotedly "puck-pursues" their passion is "an entity" within "our sport" (or do you alone have the exclusive and infallible "litmus test" for determining someone's credibility or worthiness of whether and/or how they'll be a "benefit" to "our sport"...or even, what, to give their opinion (well-informed or otherwise) in a forum post...!?!

And trust me, Richard, my "impressive energy" (GEE, THANKS for the "props"!) is indeed "creating something in our sport that we can all get behind" (although the staff at IHC certainly looks like they won't ever be, eh?)...!!! And it's not at the expense of NARCh or the NCRHA or PIHA or anyone else (even USAH or the IIHF or FIRS!) -- ALL will be welcome and celebrated...!!!

And lastly, where do you get (from any of my posts, anyway?) a "conspiracy theory"...?!? --

And as an "editor" (of the highest expected editorial objectivity and integrity?), you of all people should know, Richard, those who know and speak the truth have no need nor want of making an "impression" with anyone...

And you have no right, Richard (other than your opinion, of course), telling anyone to "...work harder for the sport, learn that a little respect goes a long way, and be a little less of a pain in the ass..." -- what kind of dispassionately professional and objective, above-the-fray and credibly neutral "editor" are you to opine such insult and vitriole...at a reader...!?! Hmmm, maybe a "rube" indeed, eh...!?!

And THANKS for "coverin' my wing" and the intelligent and thoughtful (as well as "colorful"!) acknowledgments and "props" on my posts, "Kittenkrusher"...!!!

Kittenkrusher

09-27-2007, 02:41 PM

No prob bro, bust ass against the glass eh. Tie yourself to a star, a dream. O' let them cry. To them that have never striven, the truth that lies behind a word to find, To them the words's right meaning was not given. For real whats a rube?

Wingman

09-27-2007, 03:26 PM

Is this thread locked yet? I'd say it's about that time, get 'em Rich... :)

Kittenkrusher

09-27-2007, 03:28 PM

Sorry for the language Mburke. Ok so to be serious here, theres nothing wrong with anyone making money off the sport, Im gonna overstep my boundireis here but o well. This Dave Garland kid makes money off PIHA right(and prolly the royalties ill have to pay for sayn his name), but hes obviously some kind of one man geneticly enhanced street team. With the growth the Gateway division is experiencing, its safe to say hes more than earning his keep, and legaly to I assume. Now the state of affairs with the higher up organisations, thats some confusing ****, and the level of confusingness there completely warrents my using a four letter word! If it is corrupt then hopefully those with the ability to make a positive change, will do so. Yeah I feel like a complete schmuck saying that, because obviously this is a matter that could greatly change the face of the sport in the USA, possibly facilitate growth like weve only dreamed of. Faith aint cheap, but neither is the education that it requires to decipher and sythesis something of this magnitude. Still if such a situation proves to be true you have my fire. And all of us that say we love the game especialy the Gatekeepers with an education should most cetainly explore and defend the interests of the game.

ACCCT2

09-27-2007, 04:00 PM

OH, so do we "lock" threads now whenever (a favored?) someone hears something they don't wanna hear (again I say, "What IS it with you people?)...?!?

GO AHEAD, "lock-off" the thread -- and you'll lose virtually all credible notions of professionalism, neutrality, credibility, objectivity and editorial integrity (and for what?), especially with those of us who are seriously and sincerely concerned for the sport's incredibly immature, ignorant and clearly uninformed "head-in-the-sand" apathy and appraisal of itself...

Let's see what kind of "editorial" toughness, timbre and integrity you're made of, hmmm, "on here"...

Y'know, y'all would rather rail on me than actually read the Ted Stevens Olympic And Amateur Sports Act (and whatever you think, about Senator Stevens or whatever, it is "Federal Law"), as well as the USAH materials I "clued" you in on -- YEAH, I can see that "our sport" is in really good hands with the lazy likes of (some of) your senses' of "proving" anything (like IHC is some kind of "clearing-house" or something on the veracity and validity of "the Truth", eh?) -- do any of you ("rubes"?) actually think that "the river" (as "Kittenkrusher" so eloquently put it) will ever be "clean" enough for sponsors and advertisers to actually "bottle" and "drink from" its "flow" with its having to "find its way" through the undeniably barren, corrupted and polluted stench of 'inline's' fallow and NGB-war-razed landscape as it presently lies (for the most part) now...!?! -- DREAM ON...

William Bourque

09-27-2007, 04:33 PM

The Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act is 50,000 words long. I started reading it and didn't get so far before i lost interest. I am still not sure what sections you want me to focus on because i find it very difficult to read your posts. They make me feel like i have dyslexia. However, i did highlight some parts about national governing bodies.

Subchapter II - National Governing Bodies

§220521. Recognition of amateur sports organizations as national governing bodies
(a) GENERAL AUTHORITY.?For any sport which is included on the program of the Olympic Games, the Paralympic Games, or the Pan-American Games, the corporation is authorized to recognize as a national governing body (in the case of a sport on the program of the Olympic Games or Pan American Games) or as a paralympic sports organization (in the case of a sport on the program of the Paralympic Games for which a national governing body has not been designated under section 220522(b)) an amateur sports organization which files an application and is eligible for such recognition in accordance with the provisions of subsections (a) or (b) of section 220522. The corporation may recognize only one national governing body for each sport for which an application is made and approved, except as provided in section 220522(b) with respect to a paralympic sports organization.
(b) PUBLIC HEARING.?Before recognizing an organization as a national governing body, the corporation shall hold at least 2 public hearings on the application. The corporation shall publish notice of the time, place, and nature of the hearings. Publication shall be made in a regular issue of the corporation's principal publication at least 30 days, but not more than 60 days, before the date of the hearings. The corporation shall send written notice, which shall include a copy of the application, at least 30 days prior to the date of any such public hearing to all amateur sports organizations known to the corporation in that sport.
(c) RECOMMENDATION TO INTERNATIONAL SPORTS FEDERATION.?Within 61 days after recognizing an organization as a national governing body, the corporation shall recommend and support in any appropriate manner the national governing body to the appropriate international sports federation as the representative of the United States for that sport.
(d) REVIEW OF RECOGNITION.?The corporation may review all matters re-lated to the continued recognition of an organization as a national governing body and may take action it considers appropriate, including placing condi-tions on the continued recognition.

§220523. Authority of national governing bodies
(a) AUTHORITY.?For the sport that it governs, a national governing body may?

(1) represent the United States in the appropriate international sports federation;
(2) establish national goals and encourage the attainment of those goals;
(3) serve as the coordinating body for amateur athletic activity in the United States;
(4) exercise jurisdiction over international amateur athletic activities and sanction international amateur athletic competition held in the United States and sanction the sponsorship of international amateur athletic competition held outside the United States;
(5) conduct amateur athletic competition, including national championships, and international amateur athletic competition in the United States, and establish procedures for determining eligibility standards for participation in competition, except for amateur athletic competition specified in section 220526 of this title;
(6) recommend to the corporation individuals and teams to represent the United States in the Olympic Games, the Paralympic Games, and the Pan-American Games, and
(7) designate individuals and teams to represent the United States in international amateur athletic competition (other than the Olympic Games, the Paralympic Games, and the Pan-American Games) and certify, in accordance with applicable international rules, the amateur eligibility of those individuals and teams. (b) REPLACEMENT OF NATIONAL GOVERNING BODY PURSUANT TO ARBITRATION.?A national governing body may not exercise any authority under subsection (a) of this section for a particular sport after another amateur sports organization has been declared (in accordance with binding arbitration proceedings prescribed by the organic documents of the corporation) entitled to replace that national governing body as the member of the corporation for that sport.

William Bourque

09-27-2007, 04:34 PM

I am intrested in reading about you points and validating them to myself. So if you could send me in the right direction it would be appreciated. And not because you have to do it, but because i am asking for you to do it.

Kittenkrusher

09-27-2007, 05:51 PM

damn i was gonna say something about the whole thread locking suggestion but it would never have been that eloquent. but yeah i just figuered that was some 15 year old kid advo'n for that, and assumed hed be ignored. Ill be a follown along gents.

quick_dry

09-27-2007, 06:53 PM

I completely agree that threads shouldn't be locked unless they're irrevocably turning to crap - even then I prefer the crap to be pruned out and the thread left open.

Like William Bourque, I read through the entire Act, some interesting things - but since you don't just sue people on the gist of an act, a few pointers on specific clauses to consider would be nice. (If the case is strong then the opposition knowing the points of law you'll be arguing shouldn't matter - they'd ind out anyway since you'd have to point it out to the judge at the mention date before they decide if trial is worthy) Either way, I genuinely hope that your case goes well for you, even if it only makes all the governing bodies situp and get their act together. (I also hope your euro tournament goes ahead, it'd be a great trip)

While I think we've all had enough of multiple NGBs all laying claim to the sport, I'd rather see another one evolve, one with IOC recognition and completely dedicated to inline hockey so our sport can quit being "ice hockey's red-headed stepchild at IIHF", or "the cash-cow replacement for quad hockey over at FIRS" with all of its curious voting rules and strange association setups.

erm, so what was the thread about again? I've completely lost track :)

MBurke

09-27-2007, 07:47 PM

ACCT2,

PLEASE STOP. When a reader posts with a suggestion to lock a post, it does NOT mean that you need to post a seven-paragraph diatribe about how we're about to infringe upon your First Amendment rights or otherwise. It only spirals the thread further off topic and your worries about the thread being locked or your voice being silenced becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. We've never redacted or edited one of your posts, only locked threads when they become irrevocably out of hand when the discussion denigrates into name-calling. Your best bet is to ignore it.

Rich is the editor of the web site. While both he and I do moderate the message board, we are not 'editors' of the message board. We only delete or lock posts or threads when they are:

spam/vulgarity
endless strings of name-calling where the subject of the thread has clearly been derailed
stifling the ability of other members of IHC to have legitimate discussion, either through personal attacks, intimidation or otherwise

The third item in that list is a slippery slope, so we try to avoid it wherever possible. Furthermore, Rich is not by any means required to be devoid of opinion or even bias. Just like everyone else here, he is a key contributor to the site. This message board isn't a newspaper; it's a discussion forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. However, much like a newspaper, we're fully entitled to decide when 'enough is enough' and refuse to print something.

With that said, at least a few of our members are respectfully and politely asking you for more information on some topics that you clearly have superior knowledge of. They're not necessarily asking you to connect the dots for them - they just don't know where to begin. Much like you probably learned the ropes of the advertising industry from people who knew more about it than you did, I don't think it would be unreasonable or 'lazy' of anyone to ask for you to at least point a finger or provide some links to extra information.

If you had some medical symptoms that needed treatment, you would probably consult a doctor for advice - searching via Google would probably result in a glut of conflicting opinions and misinformation. You also probably wouldn't crack open a medical dictionary and try to diagnose the problem yourself.

In much the same way, I think it would be highly beneficial to some of us here who ARE interested in learning more to understand your interpretation of the Act and how it relates to what USAHIL and other bodies have done in the sport. As courts throughout the US prove almost daily, even laws are open to interpretation.

MBurke

09-27-2007, 07:50 PM

All,

Please, stop feeding the trolls. If someone posts something that you believe is out of line, click on the yellow 'warning' symbol on the top right of the post to report it. If it's controversial or just blatant BS, the best approach is just to ignore it. Like any message board, we have people with a diverse range of viewpoints. Many of them will be ones you don't agree with or even believe are true. 99 times out of 100 the best way to handle those is to NOT REPLY. I promise, those threads will sink as more interesting things come up.

Even better, if someone continuously posts crap you don't want to read, click on their username, pick 'view profile', and then select 'ignore posts from this user'. You'll never have to be annoyed again!

[/rant]

This is a very interesting topic, probably one of the best on here since I've been a member. PLEASE do not ruin it by engaging in asshattery (Aristotle, are you here?) ;)

ACCCT2

09-27-2007, 07:53 PM

To at least "William Bourque" -- regretably, I really can't and absolutely won't publicly lay-out the various legal strategies, "causes of action" and cases that are going to be filed in US Federal Court (no-one wants to "tip their hand" or give away any kind of "strategic advantage" on what's about "blow-up" in some people's faces, right?). I will say that the veracity and validity of what I've tried to put-forth and wake people up upon will be validated (or not) in a US Federal Court of Law, before a Federal Judge (and possibly a jury) and with as many of the international press as possible alerted as to the nature of the legal proceedings and the seriousness of what will be decided within those hallowed (and trusted) courtroom walls...

And while it's indeed true that "laws are open to interpretation...", the courtroom still invariably decides (and has to, I might add) by the "letter of the law", as the concept of "interpretation" is really only used in determining what the "spirit of the law" might be in unclear or undefined instances...

As I said, before, all that is alleged is there to be found in the cross-referencing/comparing of the tenants, terms and conditional "sanctions" and recognitions codified (as LAW) within the Ted Stevens Olympic And Amateur Sports Act vs the actual practices, policies, forms, claims, actions and plans laid-out within USAH's materials, as well as their actual conduct -- it's considerably more than 50,000 pages with everything put together, but that's why some of us within "our sport" can actually (and "legally") know what we're talking about...

Remember, Chris Chelios was considered by nearly all of the NHLPA membership as an unreasonably annoying troublemaker and almost laughable example of "cause-carried-TOO-far" in terms of what most of them thought was his "fossil-like" thinking (even "BS") in regards to what was "right" and "legally" mandated, called-for and required in the NHLPA Constitution -- and if you remember clearly, what he alleged made him a virtually unwelcome pariah with most of the NHLPA membership and even the press -- but just look who "proved" themslves "right" in that one, eh...!?! Oh, and just also look who's also benefitting from his cause and tenacity (and who's quiet), as well...!?!

People just don't like "the messengers", I guess -- maybe it's because many times so much of what the "message" appears to be (especially if it's perceived or interpreted as an unpleasant or unflattering one), quite frankly, is something that emanates part and parcel from -- and revolves around and self-comfortingly sustains itself within -- the easier-to-manage-and -deal-with "head-in-the-sand" refusal to admit that anything's wrong simply because it's too much work (in some people's minds) to actually acknowledge the legitimacy of the "message", buckle-down, identify the problem and/or culprits and actually FIX things for the betterment of everyone...

An interesting thought just crossed my mind -- GEE, won't it be fun to see how many of you will ironically say, "I told you so!" when all of this is ultimately said and "legally" done, eh...!?!

And just for the record (check all of my posts), I've NEVER engaged in --

-- spam/vulgarity
-- endless strings of name-calling where the subject of the thread has clearly been derailed
-- stifling the ability of other members of IHC to have legitimate discussion, either through personal attacks, intimidation or otherwise

And so, might I also ask who are you referring to as a "troll" (either in the singular or collective)...???

Also, "quick_dry", I must say -- that was a thoroughly "RIGHT-ON!!!" description of what "our sport's" NGB's are: "ice hockey's red-headed stepchild at IIHF" and/or "the cash-cow replacement for quad hockey over at FIRS" -- ABSOLUTELY "RIGHT-ON!!!"

Kittenkrusher

09-27-2007, 07:55 PM

thats the truth, just letem go. O and abut the first ademdment, not that it really matters on here, but we had to steal that one back.

quick_dry

09-27-2007, 10:17 PM

completely agree on people making decisions that are the 'tough but right thing to do' often end up copping flack when they're just doing the best thing for the sport.

Is there an expected time frame for when this case will hit the courts? since you can't /won't post any more detail I guess none of us have much more to say on that front than 'good luck, hope it works out'.

(glad you liked the description ACCCT2, can you tell I'm a tad jaded? ;) )

So... where does the thread go now?

ACCCT2

09-27-2007, 10:44 PM

A portion of it (the un-seen part) goes to court...!!!;)

As for the timing of things "hitting the courts", all I can say is soon...real soon...!!!

MBurke

09-27-2007, 11:43 PM

And so, might I also ask who are you referring to as a "troll" (either in the singular or collective)...???

Don't be so quick to assume I meant you. I didn't.

Kittenkrusher

09-28-2007, 01:08 AM

Well then Senoir` care to clarify...

ACCCT2

09-28-2007, 09:05 AM

That's OK, we're cool (besides, whatever "assumption" was made in the ad-biz we're called a heck-uva lot worse sometimes...actually most times!;))

n1devil

09-28-2007, 10:30 AM

Well, guys, what to say, I was just askin if anybody could enlight me about the Olympics possibility. This looks like Beirute...lol. Calm down, dudes. You have no idea how lucky y´all are having the chance to pay (whatever the money actually goes to) and play a lot. On this side of the world, we have between 5 to 10 teams a year playing for the same title. Over and over, and yet over again. Fortunantely, I play for the champions and actually, the only internationally capable one. But its sad havin the same issues you guys refer to but on a smaller scale. Inline reality in Portugal is about 12yo and even today, both federations basically S*** on us. My team is a proud one and the only one always willing to practice all year long with or without competition.And believe me, its hard sometimes. And like I said, from the existing 10 teams, only 5 to 6 manage to enter the championship (it´s always about the money) and we try to stick together solving the problems. My question "olympics" has much to do with that. It would be an extra motivation (international competition). Giving our national team something to practice for. Since we´re having issues with both federations(one tied to FIRS the other to IIHF) we can´t even try to qualify for world championships. Its sad to realise the major abyssal distance in terms of respect between ball-and-cane hockey and inline around here.
Anyways, I got the picture. No Olympic Inline Hockey anytime soon.

Stampede#11

09-28-2007, 10:54 AM

This thread is crazy ....

If NGB's skim money ... does anyone really care that much? Hell, the whole world revolves around the fat cats skimming the cream.... which in virtually all other cases has actual consequences to human lives and peoples rights .... on the list of fat cats getting fatter, $10 of a $25 of an annual fee goes into someone's pocket is pretty low on that list... big deal!

There are far more troubles in the world than this crap, and my suggestion would be to focus all the energy you have into a worthwhile cause.

I'm all for "sticking it to the man" don't get me wrong .... but why not try and stick it to someone who deserves it for being an awful human being?

Hockey Bodies aren't taking young kids away to play abroad and then selling off into the child labour market for f%"£'s sake.

You clearly are a driven guy ACCCT2 but look at the big picture .... and please stop posting in the way you do. If you really want to sound off your thoughts and ideas, at least do it in a way that is readable, so that we may then make our own opinion. But half the time I just have lost track with the point or actual impact to any inline/ice hockey player?

What is the goal of this? To have "your day in court"? To get $$$ back? To make inline hockey the greatest sport in the world, if only it wasn't run by such evil tyrants?

I do not understand your motivation behind this ... correction, I do understand it ... but just can't figure out why it matters so much? :confused:

quick_dry

09-28-2007, 11:30 AM

to some it is important to run things 'the right way'.

n1devil: I completely get where you're coming from, in fact while my team and I were away at Nationals last week we found out that our home rink had been closed - that was the last remaining roller rink in the city/state - and we'd need to find a new one ASAP.

Stampede#11

09-28-2007, 11:43 AM

And for me it is to important ... but there has to be a line drawn in the sand don't you think and an understanding of motivations for achieving the goals, if people want others to jump on that band wagon?

If all the money that is allegedly being skimmed was used to set up more facilites ... then more power too you. That is why I asked the question of what is it all for? If it is a personal crusade or sticking it to the man, then I fear it is futile. As when you oust someone, within a short space of time there will be 10 more to fill those boots.

Kittenkrusher

09-28-2007, 11:49 AM

Man I hope colonialism stays on track so i can make some chump change selln water. whats the martket for inline hockey in Mexico?

degani00

09-28-2007, 12:18 PM

I am kinda enjoying this thread and I think that it's good for all of us to get our mind opened, I'm not saying someone's right or wrong, just reading different points of view makes you think more.
Also I'd like to mention that in Brazil things are pretty ugly fot the sport as well, there's about 1500 players throughout the country (of 180 millions brazilians) and NONE 196x98 arena. There are about 35 teams countrywide and most of them can't afford the trips to play nationals.
Not trying to be a demagog, I know that you too must defend your interest. But remember that not many people are as fortunate. I'm not complaing because I play hockey almost every day and have already being to an IIHF world cup. Just wanted to "open" your minds.

ACCCT2

09-28-2007, 12:54 PM

If you knew your history (and I mean just about all of human history), you'd know that "awful human beings" don't start out as arrogant, self-agrandizing crooks, criminals, or meglomaniacal mass-murderers from the get-go -- to coin an oft-used "canned-answer" we hear so much of in sports, they "take what's given to them and go from there..." -- when someone actually says (and believes?) that "skimming" anything from hard-working players, moms, dads and kids is no "big deal", well, I say it's attitudes like that that is "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil..." -- and it's those attitudes that actually accept -- and by accepting, encourage -- curruption, malfeasance, misappropraition and misuse of funds that enable unworthy and undeserving "fat cats getting fatter"...

Hmmm, "does anyone really care that much" -- well, I do (as well as a good number of others enough to be committed to "legal" actions) and I guess I'm actually "drawing" that "line in the sand" that was mentioned -- there comes a point at which "NO MORE" has to be made clear.

In my mind it comes down to one a one-word concept: "principle" -- as "quick_dry" very accurately and succinctly pointed-out -- "to some it is important to run things 'the right way'.

As for what the "goal" of the legal action would be, all I can tell you is that first and foremost, it's to force a "clean-up" of the NGB's "dirty-work" of sleazy "shams" (of "featherbedding", fees, insurances, policies, practices and future plans for even more) and their arrogantly expensive and costly disregard for all of the hard-working players, moms, dads and volunteers (that, by the way, by LAW and NGB must serve ALL of them, members and non-members alike) -- and usually the best way to get someone's attention and legally mandated cooperation is by "hitting them where it hurts", right...!?! From there (at least here in the USA), there's a myriad of US Legal Code and USOC-outlined "cures", options and possibilities that could be considered by the Court, Congrees and/or the players (members and non-members alike)...

And just a thought -- "n1devil" sounds a lot like the "mavericks" of the sport (any sport ,actually) that I mentioned in one of my other posts (on another thread) -- someone who (with and through their simply wanting to play the game they love) is inexplicably forced to overcome the obstacles and conditions that their NGB inexplicably puts before them -- an entity that should be by definition making things easier for them -- this scenario is far too common and the norm in "our sport" and it's only because we let "the fat cats get fatter" and enable it to happen with a "not caring" or "not really my problem" attitude...

Stampede#11

09-28-2007, 02:07 PM

Dude you are entitled to your crusade if that is what floats your boat. I was pointing out that you clearly have the energy and knowledge of the legailties, that you should focus on people who maybe cause genuine harm in this world ... not some guys who you .... think/know/what ever you think, .... are taking money from the inline hockey playing community.

All I was saying was that I personally don't loose sleep at night over a few guys maybe getting a ridiculously tiny % of my annual income for themselves. **** I pay nearly 35% in tax most months and get a lot less to show for it than I do paying my hockey fees. And that if I had your energy I would be down the local soup kitchen or concentrating my efforts that will actually enable you to have a crusade with a point ... sorry valuable point.

For 99% of people who play inline hockey, what happens at NGB level really has no impact. Hockey is game to get together with the guys, forget about work for a few hours and have fun. Win, loose or draw.

I think whatever the outcome of your quest is fair knight ... the only person who will win, loose or draw is you ... and the rest of us, where ever we are in the world ... will carry on regardless.

ACCCT2

09-28-2007, 03:49 PM

Actually, my company is working on an international ice hockey broadcast/entertainment program that will benefit dozens of worthy academic and cultural institutions, scholarships, charities and relief organizations all around the world -- so don't worry, my "energy" is being well-allocated, as well-spent on a number of worthy and deserving causes and "quests"...

I have worked directly with and for the "homeless" (in 1988 helping out a musician/activist friend of mine, Seamus Kelleher, with the creation, naming and marketing of "Celtic Care", an Irish-American community based fund-raising effort that has sinced raised hundreds of thousands of dollars and in-kind donations and benefits for homeless relief organizations in NYC. My brother and I also helped finance, film and produce Seamus' award-winning documentary, "Heartstrings", about homeless, battered women and children and what they have to endure to finally receive the help, relief and protection our society is supposed to afford them (this film was also donated to the American Red Cross for them to use as a sensitivity/training film)...

In 1989, we also created and received recognition from then Mayor David Dinkens for what was then the first incarnation of "Hockey For The Homeless" in NYC (the name has since been picked-up by an outfit in Toronto, Canada -- we don't mind that they legally infringed upon our name, as they also seem to be doing "good works" with it and after all, if someone is doing good with something, for us it's the "principle" and "spirit" of things that really matter)...

And I guess it's just too bad that you don't "have" my "energy", isn't it -- y'know, I think about that old saying that goes something like, "You can't save the world if you can't even save yourself..." -- and in actually contemplating this rather profound thought, I find it particiularly offensive that anyone not willing to roll-up their own sleeves and pitch-in with the hard work, commitment and dedication to a cause's success -- like the totally worthy and usefully GOOD idea of getting rid of "evil tyrants" at any great or even small level of so-called "governance" or tyranny -- that that kind of "critic" actually has the temerity to sagely suggest what only others might better be doing with their "energy" and passion while admittedly doing nothing themselves speaks volumes of the mindsets of some "on here", don't you think...!?!

As for the incredibly outrageous and ignorant assertion that "For 99% of people who play inline hockey, what happens at NGB level really has no impact..." -- if you only knew how incredibly wrong you are about such a stupidly self-centered supposition -- everything from from insurance rates, benefits, liabilities and coverages (for players, organizations, leagues, events and facilities); sponsorship monies and support; direct media access and coverage; accountability from those (at the NGB) that the membership entrusts with their (membership's) interests, monies and sponsorships -- GEEZ, the list goes on and on -- ALL of this matters and affects the game at even the most remote of levels...

ADD-UP the amounts of what, as you said, supposedly insignificantly amounts to "...a few guys maybe getting a ridiculously tiny % of (your) annual income for themselves..." and now multiply that by well over 50,000 (as in 'inline' hockey players) or well over 500,000 (ice hockey players) and then try and tell us all that the cost of corruption, cronyism, "featherbedding" and "legalities", as well as "fat cats getting fatter" don't matter or affect anyone, let alone the integrity and healthy growth of "our sport"...

I can't believ that I actually put up with (and, hmmm, waste my precious time and "energy" on?) the undeserved crap and sarcasm ("fair knight"?) that so many of you spew forth about my motivations, obligations and/or worthiness to have an opinion on something (truly meaningful, productive and/or lasting) within, yeah right -- "our sport"...

Now you be sure and "carry on regardless", y'all, you hear...!?!

thebenchman

09-28-2007, 05:04 PM

Well for what its worth....

I know a small bit of what ACCCT2 is talking about. He is correct in several instances. While yes it is some times hard to read (lol), he has some very valid points.

Right now the whole sport is not going to change and unify simply because too many people would loose too much money. There is a lot of money in the right spots in depended on what you do. Rink owners are near the bottom of those who make money other than the coaches. At this point the manufacturers do see their profits may not be what they were a few years back however, there is still money to be made.The different "leaders" all feel they have the inside track. AAU/USARS actually came very close to getting this sport into the Olympics just a couple of years recently and even a few years before that.

Right now because of the fact that too many people would lose money there will never be a unification of this sport. There is also the fact that many people who feel so strong about one "group" or another will listen only with closed ears. There was a meeting the last couple of years called a Summit. It was geared to trying to open up communication for all involved. Well some were not invited or at least till the last second and invited them selves. Some people/tournaments were crushed because this too, is their lively hood, were told they were not of importance.

We can sit around all day, those of us who were raised in this area of the country feel strongly about this program or that program that is supposed governing body. Fact is there is one in place and has been for years. Problem is that it has been disrespected by the sport. USARS/AAU is recognized as the governing body by the IOC. While USAHIL and all of the other groups proclaim them selves the leaders, this is a free world and you can say anything you want. As loong the several make this claim it only makes this sport non unified and give the impression of buffoonism (if that is a word).

I will shut up now, I at one time was very active in the sport. I have been out of the loop per se, but do still talk, read and recieve many calls about the game and its direction.

If we could honestly lay all of everything we have aside, and respect the game and each other, this will explode into a great sport even more. Stagnation is pewtrid. This is where we are at. There are some GREAT new ventures going on like PIHA and State Wars. The State High School/Junior High programs and College programs NCRHA are good starts for the game.

ACCCT2

09-28-2007, 10:54 PM

WOW!!! -- Somebody actually knows some facts (that USARS/FIRS are the ONLY USOC and IOC legally-recognized NGB's for "our sport" of 'inline' roller hockey) -- will wonders never cease...!?!

It's interesting that the "Summit" was also brought up, as well as the numerous "truths and consequences" of what was really a desperate ploy by USAH (and its USAH-Inline) to maintain its pseudo-place as an psuedo-NGB within "our sport" because of the legal realities and threatened ramifications that came out of the US Congressional hearings investigating the USOC, IOC and their complicity in the rampant corruption and payoffs that surrounded especially the XIX Olympic Winter Games in Salt Lake City, Utah. USAH (and USAH-Inline) knew that their false and dishonest claim of being an exclusive and "official" USOC and IOC legally-sanctioned and recognized NGB of "our sport" was essentially up and at an end with the "NO-MORE-NONSENSE" outcome of the hearings, yet I suspect that they somehow wanted to be able to keep the considerable advertising and sponsorship monies that they'd brought in through a 'bundled' selling of their false and dishonest claim of being the "official" USOC legally-recognized NGB of both ice and 'inline' hockey in the USA.

I also suspect the reason why smaller tournament, league and event companies and organizations weren't invited to this so-called "Summit" of supposedly "everyone that was anyone" in "our sport" was to keep the number of potentially costly "pieces" in the "cash-pie" of future advertising, sponsorship and even membership monies that would obviously be divied-up by even more NGB, league and event "players" and "pretenders" limited (especially after the clearly unfavorable outcome of the Congressional hearings and what it meant for those who might try to continue misrepresent their actual USOC amd IOC standing in the future).

I think it should also be known that from what I've heard, USAH and USAH-Inline's false and dishonest claim of being the USOC's and IOC's "official" NGB for 'inline' hockey has already cost USARS well over $2,000,000 USD in damages, lost registration and legal fees to date. Their ploy of attrition (against USARS/FIRS) at virtually every turn -- including waiting for USARS/FIRS scheduling and announcement of "Nationals" and "World Championships" and then scheduling and announcing their USAH-Inline and IIHF-Inline "Nationals" and "World Championships" for virtually the same dates should tell you their real interest in sharing any "control" of "our sport", let alone any anticipated "Olympic" advertising and sponsorship cash and/or swag with anyone...

You should all dig even deeper, people...

alex

09-29-2007, 12:20 AM

I don't understand how stating that USARS/AAU is the recognized NGB gets us anywhere. For many of us, that's where the problem begins.

It's been said 'the problem is that the NGB has been disrespected by the sport.' Isn't then, the problem that a large segment of the sport doesn't even support its own NGB? Shouldn't the NGB and leaders of the sport have overwhelming support from the sport itself? I'd say the sentiment of those actually playing and running the sport is more important than that of the IOC.

If you surveyed our sport today, do you think a majority would say they support AAU/USARS as the NGB?

Kittenkrusher

09-29-2007, 02:36 AM

ACCT2 hows a second renisance sound to you. Geez you people are talking like were entering into the final emmancipatory stage of history or something. Old man heres somethin for you to chew on consider it brain candy.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1598952902360052771&q=Immortal+technique+point+of+no+retun&total=69&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Stampede#11

09-29-2007, 06:33 AM

ACCT2 - you get sarcastic comments due to your continual self indulgent trumpet blowing. Your constant referals to being in the Ad business ... surely the basic concept of advertising is to get your point across in the most simple & direct manner you can .... "Just do it" ... not to ramble on in a fashion that not many people can't read, thus not understand your points.

"The Robin Hood of Hockey" should be your new title ... taking back from the rich and giving to ... well who? That is my concern? Saying someone's comments are "undeserved crap" (I love quoting you back by the way), completely highlights the one thing that seems to drive this all ... your ego.

Your constant "quoting" and disection of every sentance that may be in your direction shows your unjust combatitive nature. If you were really were doing this for the good of the sport then you would actually engage in a two way discussion and care for other opinions that were not the same as your own. Instead you chose to try belittle people by just throwing what they say back at them in a school yard fashion with your ridiculous typing style.

Your points are valid, and I never said I didn't agree with them, and if that makes you & others happy, then by all means GO FOR IT.

The grand scheme of things and doing the right thing is of course important, but more important is how the big picture impacts the individual, and in this case I think it is extremely nominal. I forever see people fighting for causes that have such little impact on the vast majority or make a difference in peoples lives. If more people with the energy and inclination got together to push for important causes that actually make a difference to a lot of people's lives, then things would change for the better. But there in lies the problem, people who feel so strongly tend to have another motivation ... their self promotion and you have re-enforced my view of this, so thank you.

And I will not give extensive detail about how clever I am, what a wonderful human being I am and of what I do/don't do in my life ... hence to not giving you the opportunity you probably are looking for to try and play one-up-manship even further..... if it is possible.

ACCCT2

09-29-2007, 08:21 AM

Whatever, Dude (or should that "rube"?)...

What, you've got nothing more to say about what others should be doing with their "energy" while you admittedly do nothing (but critique others) with yours...???

I find it extremely funny and ironic that you feel that you "...will not give extensive detail about how clever (you are), what a wonderful human being (you are) and of what (you) do/don't do in (your) life..." considering all the "proof" and "extensive detail" that's always been demanded of me...!?! --

You ask for "proof", I give it (just once) and it's called "self indulgent trumpet blowing" or "ego" and "self-promotion"...!?! -- Like I said -- what IS it with you people (what was that about "feeding the trolls", Mike?*)...!?!

And my "quoting" actually "shows" that I'll accurately hold people to task and account for their ironic and shameless (or moronic) double-standards and/or, hmmm, "unjust combative nature"...

Right, whatever... -- it's all TOO easy to "one-up" the likes of people like you...

As for "alex's" question regarding why "stating that USARS/AAU is the recognized NGB" actually "gets us" anything -- if you actually knew what USAH's (and USAH-Inline's) false and dishonest claims of being the "official" USOC and IOC recognized NGB for "our sport" has financially cost (in hard-earned membership and sponsorship monies) both USARS and USAH membership in terms of just legal bills alone, I think you'd definitely think otherwise -- especially in regards to USAH's true motivation and tactics and whether a so-called NGB that engages in such false and dishonest and financially costly behavior should be trusted to sanction, steward or control anything, let alone people's hard-earned money (which is what this is really all about -- people's hard-earned, yet apparently un-cared-for and un-accounted-for cash)...

*: OH YEAH, "ignore it" -- THANKS, Mike...!!!

quick_dry

09-29-2007, 10:41 AM

Their ploy of attrition (against USARS/FIRS) at virtually every turn -- including waiting for USARS/FIRS scheduling and announcement of "Nationals" and "World Championships" and then scheduling and announcing their USAH-Inline and IIHF-Inline "Nationals" and "World Championships" for virtually the same dates
completely by the by, but this was amusing because in my neck of the woods it was the opposite - we'd set our dates for championships and then they'd put out their tournaments (curiously on at the same time)

As for all this bluster that people should put energy into more worthy causes, what a load of twaddle. Maybe they should quit preaching and quit wasting time on forums that they could spend at a soup kitchen, doing community work, or whatever. Problems in inline hockey might not be important to most people in the general public, but corruption should be fought wherever possible - and this sport has problems that need to be fixed.

The trouble with FIRS based organisations being the recognised NGBs is that it makes sense on the face of it : "they're a roller sports body, they already cover rollerhockey, you play inline hockey on roller blades, it all fits" when the community has greater crossover with ice hockey (yet don't sit comfortably in either camp).

In Australia we merged our two inline hockey organisation with their inline hockey 'arm', with requirements that for a set number of years the board members would be split equally between the two camps until we were integrated fully.

Alex in a perfect world the matter wouldn't even be here, the governments would give the nod to the dominant body, everything would be under one banner, and that would be that... unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Most people won't worry or care about this (and that is fine, it'll neveer make a difference to them if they just turn up, play, go home) - but it is important for those dealing at international level.

ACCCT2

09-30-2007, 11:31 PM

It's great when somebody actually knows the truth about something, isn't it...!?!

One slight clarification, though: NGB's usually also can and usually do handle administrative duties, (for what's typically called "the good order of the sport" by many NGB's), as well as set standards, rules and membership benefits (like educational/coaching/training initiatives and comprehensive insurance coverages, marketing, etc.) based upon membership needs -- very basic, really, beyond what was so succinctly and accurately laid-out by "Center_ice" --

Now, this basic "administrative" and quite limited and minimally "time intensive" set of NGB "work" and "must-provide" imperatives being an easily accomplished and inexpensive given (especially in an age of very cost-effective, accurate and accountable "cyber-administration" and "business-management" software applications), can someone tell us all exactly how USAH (and USAH-Inline) spends well over $20,000,000 USD of your hard-earned membership and sponsorship monies each year...??? --

Why does USAH need over 60 handsomely paid (and expense-accounted) employees, consultants, and "feather-bedded" coaches, cronies and (so-called) marketing people at just their National offices alone -- especially when their spending of your hard-earned $20,000,000 USD in membership and sponsorship monies has resulted in a grand total of 1 Gold Medal and 1 Silver Medal for the USA Men's Olympic Ice Hockey Team (both exclusively Herb Brooks accomplishments) in the last 35 years and 9 Olympic Winter Games; and 1 Gold, 1 Silver and 1 Bronze (in a "2-horse" race, I might add), as well as an evidenced "downward trend" for the USA Women's Olympic Ice Hockey Team in the 3 (and only) Olympic Winter Games that the women's game has been included...??? --

Why does USAH need over 80 "board members" (all "expenses" paid-for by membership monies whenever they travel to USAH "meetings" and "congresses" and, of course, "Olympic" affairs)...??? --

And just so everyone's clear -- USAH-Inline's mediocre record in IIHF-Inline World Championships isn't a heck-uva lot better, considering the head-start on the sport we Americans had, as well as the massive "grass roots" and "pro" talent/player pool we have here in the USA -- and they still haven't answered demand for women being accommodated via national and international events (even with well over $20,000,000 USD of membership monies to spend, and a healthy portion of that being female-based membership), so why do some people think that these clear-cut, self-centered, self-indulging "shinny-chauvinists" are acceptable as an NGB that should be championing all corners and shifts in "our sport"...??? --

Think about it -- well over $20,000,000 USD in your membership and sponsorship monies being spent on high-5-&-6-figure salaries and 4-&-5-star expense accounts so that guys like Walter Bush, Ron DeGregorio, Dave Ogrean, Art Berglund, Lou Vairo, etc. (who each probably haven't laced up a pair of skates or played in decades), beyond their handsome salaries, stipends and retirement "consultancies", can each travel at least four or five times a year to so-called "congresses" (of mostly 5-star dining, golf & sailing) at notorious ice and 'inline' hockey hotbeds like that of Vilamoura, Portugal on the sun-&-fun "Algarve" coast of the Mediterranean Sea -- or Marbella, Spain on the "Costa Del Sol" stretch of that same sun-&-fun Mediterranean Sea (just to name a couple of recent IIHF & USAH "hockey" destinations) -- and that there are actually those who really think that this kind of corrupt, self-indulgent, self-entitled and almost criminally shady and gluttonish "feeding-at-the-trough" and "stewardship" of "our sport" and more importantly, our money is actually OK as long as these "rubes" can play an un-concerned game of "league", "pick-up" or "open-hockey" without being troubled with such apparently trivial matters...!?!

ACCCT2

10-01-2007, 12:17 AM

Why was "Center_ice's" post (just before my last one) deleted...???

dan sangiorgio

10-01-2007, 12:39 AM

you make good points that its seems usah is not putting the money towards the benefits of its members but i don't see usars doing any better i think that the safest answer might be that they both have done a lousy job.

MBurke

10-01-2007, 01:49 AM

Why was "Center_ice's" post (just before my last one) deleted...???

Center_ice
This message has been deleted by Center_ice.

Ask him.

Kittenkrusher

10-01-2007, 08:41 AM

Damn you center ice, stop impeding center ices civil rights you crazy bastard.

Stampede#11

10-01-2007, 10:37 AM

The reason I chose not to highlight what I do/do not do is that, for example, if I said I had coached 100 kids in hockey who had gone on to be successful adults ... I am certain you would have coached 101.

I do have plenty of energy, the energy I have refered to is what drives you be so angry about this topic. So a few in an old boys club get some free sunshine and a round of golf .... as I said a few posts ago. I pay WAY more in tax and what those guys get up to with my money is more my concern. I have plenty of energy that is directed in various directions ... and I assure you none are as pointless as this one.

ACCCT2

10-01-2007, 12:55 PM

What in the world are you talking about...?!?

"Free sunshine"...!?! -- THANK GOD you're not running anything in "our sport", as $20,000,000 USD badly spent is $20,000,000 USD badly spent. Period.

Center_ice

10-01-2007, 06:57 PM

Can someone tell me why everyone thinks that AAU is an NGB of roller hockey?

Center_ice

10-01-2007, 07:12 PM

The constant battle between FIRS and IIHF is not making it any easier to get the sport to be taken serouisly by the IOC, thus holding it back from being a Olympic Sport.

Fact: The with the increasing cost of team sports facilites the sport hosting committees are leaning towards more individuals sports. This is why inline hockey is not currently a Pan Am sport.

Who created a inline side of the IIHF? and why was it created? The IIHF wants out of inline, but due to the poilitical influence by you know who, USAH (Walter Bush & Dave Ogrean) and that pile of dough that USAH throws in to the event each year to keep it going just to try and run another NGB out of business. Now that is what I call a classy organization. If the USOC had any balls what so ever we would not have the mess we have today in inline hockey world.

See the only NGB's that have any money are the ones that do well in the Olympics.

USAH inline could not survive without USAH ice's money and it drives the ice guys at USAH crazy that they have to carry what they view as a retard sport.

ACCCT2

10-01-2007, 07:50 PM

Actually, the USOC may very well and soon be legally forced to actually find some "balls" and actually do (and enforce) what they're supposed to regarding this clearly untenable and unhealthy legal/sport situation (as well as others) created, by the way, exclusively by USAH and its "Olympic" money/swag/lifestyle greed...

ACCCT2

10-01-2007, 07:54 PM

Can someone tell me why everyone thinks that AAU is an NGB of roller hockey?

Because not a lot of people here actually know what they're talking about, I'd hazzard to say...

Center_ice

10-01-2007, 09:13 PM

As a rink owner I remember the boys at USAHIL trying to explain to me why my ice guys needed to buy another membership to play inline.

They told me it was because it was two separate sports.

Well that is not what they were telling the USOC every time they attempteing to steal away the NGB status from USARS.

In their last attempt they said that that hockey was hockey and that they should be in charge of all hockey? What about field hockey boys?

RichardGraham

10-01-2007, 09:44 PM

WHY DID YOU EDIT your own POST?? QUIT this horrible sense-or-ship!

quick_dry

10-01-2007, 10:50 PM

yup, just more reason we need our own 'inline hockey only' federation and associations (though IMHO as a sport we do have more commnality with ice than quad hockey or 'roller sports' in general).

I can see why there might be additional fees payable for insurance coverage - but that would just need a change to the contract between the USAH and their insurance provider so it wasn't just ice hockey - and really if you already played contact ice hockey then you'd already have the most expensive insurance coverage anyway.

(I'm wondering of any other new sports that might fall 'sort of' within the bounds of anouther international governing body, and how they're handling things)

Center_ice

10-01-2007, 11:43 PM

Many for whatever reason don't like AAU, but the fact is that AAU has the best membership for the price in the industry, so why not take advantage of it. Most americans are always looking for a good deal. AAU does not interfere with how you run your league or events, heck they invite event operators to be come apart what they are marketing, Youth Sports Events run by event operators (independant people).

The insurance can't be beat $12.00 a year with a $200.00 deductable.

USAH inline membreship I hear is going to $30. now that is a lot more that $12. I know your going to say we get a magazine, true. The ice guys at USAH get an ice version and the inline guys get 2-3 pages of insert inline to the ice edition. Interesting that the ice guys edition never shows the inline insert. Just another example of what USAH really wants and that is to get rid of inline, but then again you have a few big wigs hanging on.

All NGB's memberships are high, $30 buck is actually cheap if they were the NGB, but their not so that is a little steep for what you get in return. I know for a fact that other NGB's have feess of $40 - $70 to join their organization. Now it is not mandatory for everyone to join with the NGB, so why not take the most economical or best value for your buck. If your trying out for a national team then the cost of the NGB membership is probably included in your tryout fee.

I know that we all feel very comfortable with USAHIL because of the job that their ice guys do with that program (structure), but just think about this. The ice guys want nothing to do with inline they tell their players not to play that it only creates bad habits. Regardless of what USAHIL has done to dispell the myth about inline to their ice guys they still don't want ice players playing inline and why would they there is way more money to be made in ice than in roller.

quick_dry

10-02-2007, 12:19 AM

is it not more practical for all insurance to be handled by the NGB and leverage the power that a huge membership base would have in getting a good insurance deal (much like AAU has?).

Here everyone just joins and a portion of the money gets forwarded on to the NGB for paying for each persons insurance. This is the same for inline, ice, netball, basketball, etc.

ACCCT2

10-02-2007, 12:26 AM

Don't fool yourself on USAH's ice so-called "structure" -- there is none.

Essentially, USAH relies on the abundant network of dedicated, devoted and committed players, moms, dads and "grass-roots" volunteers and un-paid coaches to actually "develop" their eventual "national-calibre" players -- to many in the game who actually know what's really going on, their NTDP is a sham designed to take advantage of the "pie-in-the-sky" visions of "Olympic" or "Pro" pretentions by taking even more of the "grass-roots'" hard-earned money for a so-called "expert" coaching (by whom?) and "evaluation camps" (for what?)...??? --

Once a player makes it out of organized "youth hockey" or recreational "house play", then the dedicated and organizationally-compensated-for ("private") coaches and leagues take over a player's develpoment right on up through junior, college and university play -- and USAH has absolutely nothing to do with "developing" a player's skills and potential from -- well GEEZ, since the very first time they first put on skates and picked-up their very first hockey stick...

Outside of a yearly "USAH Yearbook" and "Rules" updates, which, don't kid yourselves, are "updated" each year (not assembled or written anew), as well as a few dozen videotapes, where does well over $20,000,000 USD each year go (hey, USAH, can you actually tell us -- as you're supposed to...!?!)...??? --

Again, this is an organization that each year takes in and has at it's disposal to "assist" membership in its "goals" well over $20,000,000 USD to spend on membership needs and developing the game -- and yet all evidence points to most of that $20,000,000 USD of membership monies actually covering the shady "structure" of "fat-cats-getting-fatter" (with a "4-&-5-star-expense acount-lifestyle") off of -- and at the expense of -- those hard-working players, moms, dads, sponsors, volunteers and un-paid coaches and all of their time, effort, passion and (of course) money...

The "structure" that anyone talks of regarding USAH's should have a complete and thorough "inspection" -- via an IRS-style investigation and "forensic accounting" of virtually every aspect of USAH's expenditures, contracts, "consultancies" and "quid pro quo's" -- and I would further hazzard a guess that should such a thorough "investigation" and "forensic accounting" ever be "So Ordered", we'd all most assuredly witness the "rats" scurrying off of their "stinking" sinking "shinny-shiesters-ship"...

nummer55

10-02-2007, 05:17 AM

As a Dutch player and manager I can only say one thing about you Americans. I believe this thread is a great example of why our great sport is not developing at all (maybe even declining). The total lack of clarity in organizations, players and managers that don't even know why they are paying money to an organization and the fact that every now and then somebody starts a new organization / competition / tournament. For a sport to grow in a healthy way a country needs a single NGB (that would be FIRS).

While the USARS may not be very active in the US, the European committee of the FIRS is doing a great job in organizing the Champions Cup (http://www.europeinlinehockey.com). This Cup (featuring the champions and vice-champions of the UK, Ireland, France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands) is like the Champions League in soccer. Ask CJ Yoder about the level of play.

In the European countries there are leagues. Sometimes there is both a IISHF and FIRS league. These leagues do work together and fall under the same NGB. Only the big ice hockey countries (Sweden, Finland, etc) play IIHF rules (with offsides and clearings). This because it is mainly there summer training for high level ice players.

I think a good way to start is to have one big World Championships (having FIRS and IIHF working together). Starting at the top would be a good thing in this case, especially to show the IOC how great our sport is.