Tennessee PIHA [Archive] - Inline Hockey Central

William Bourque

08-28-2007, 01:32 AM

It is being proposed to the board of the parks system that runs Hattrick. I will know information very soon. There is a very good shot they will be in.

At what point will the PIHA start contracting and eliminate 4-5 teams from the same market? OR even 1-2 teams from the same facility. Don't get me wrong, i think the PIHA is great, and all the expansion is phenomenal. However, it just seems crazy that the league could have somewhere over 36 teams.

I understand all the problems with travel and everything. However, it seems to me that a Professional league would not have 4 teams in one market (Philly and St. Louis), not sure if you count Denver. 1-2 per market isn't entirely crazy because it happens in the four major sports.

Expansion is great for the PIHA and the sport of roller hockey, However, isn't too much expansion in such limited geography a bad thing?

I just was wondering what everyone was thinking in this manor.

Would 4 owners with four separate teams, have a better chance to survive and excel with one team and more resources?

Please don't take this as league bashing. I love the PIHA. Not that i play in it, but i do follow it with a close eye. I know many of the owners and players in this region Southeast/Southcentral PA. I am just looking to start conversation and see what anyone else is thinking on this idea.

SandeHockey17

08-28-2007, 08:04 AM

All valid points. But this league isn't about getting paid or anything like that. The main focus of this league is primarily the expansion. By expanding more and more every season, the popularity grows, the interest grows, and more people begin to take notice of us (not just players either). Although, I 1000% agree with you about the two teams in one rink, I think that is the biggest mistake for us, although even that happens in the highest end of professional sports (Jets/Giants).

My feeling is that, if there is a rink, that houses quality players, and that rink would like to house a PIHA team, then so be it. As many rinks as possible . . . not as many teams. Buildings in this league should NOT be housing two teams. Hopefully that made sense.

GROWL

08-28-2007, 10:04 AM

PIHA's goal is not to form a national inline hockey league, with one team in each major region. The goal is to have a division in each major region. This means 4-5 teams in a particular area and maybe even multiple teams out of a rink, if the talent pool supports it. Look at it more like the the little league world series then the nhl. This league may one day have 100 team across north america.

While this may seem ridiculous to those that simply think a pro league must be in a the standard 30 team, one in each city format.

The PIHA is being built to market itself by virtue of its numbers now and in the future.

patb16

08-28-2007, 12:34 PM

I personally like the way PIHA is doing things with a division per major region. I think this is possibly how professional soccer may have evolved in Europe.

If you look at professional soccer in England, for example, they have many professional teams throughout the country. I don't know the exact history, but at some point they were broken up into different leagues or tiers if you will. Now they have like around 4 leagues and at the end of every season, the top 3 teams in each league get promoted to the better league or tier and the bottom 3 teams in each league get relegated to the lower divisions or tiers.

Maybe at some point PIHA could get to that level where it has enough teams, high enough spectator interest, sponsorship, etc. to split up into different leagues or tiers... Not saying its gonna happen any time soon, but right now the name of the game is league growth and expanding interest in the league.

Just something to think about.

Dave Garland

08-28-2007, 12:54 PM

Pat,

That is a GREAT point. Actually in Italy they do that with inline hockey. There are three levels of play: A1, A2, and B. The system works as you mentioned with top teams moving up and bottom teams dropping.

The way I see PIHA is that it is changing how we think of professional and concepts of professional sports. PIHA is family and grassroots based. A huge number of niche/minor league/etc. sports fail all the time because of a flawed system where a ton of capital is used to start a league/team and then teams try to recover it. This is why many minor/niche sports fail.

I think multiple teams in a market works extremely well and that is why I liked the European comparison. And in all honesty, PIHA is expanding and changing and has already hit over the five year mark. Something must be going right or they would be going the way of the RHI and other "Pro" leagues.

People are usually very adverse to change and new concepts that may actually end up more beneficial for everyone.

patb16

08-28-2007, 01:03 PM

Yea... the way those leagues in Europe are set up is the exact opposite to anything a professional sports league has ever tried here in the U.S.

I actually like the way they do it over there better... Clubs get rewarded for having a well managed organization, and poorly managed organizations pay the price.

William Bourque

08-28-2007, 02:00 PM

Thanks for your responses, i actually love the comparison to the European Soccer. It makes total sense and i like the way it was also compared to the Little League. With just your few posts you changed the way i was looking at things. However, i still think that the two teams, one rink is the wrong way to look at things. I understand the Giants/Jets do it, but frankly i just don't like it. Going back to just my personal opinion.

GROWL

08-28-2007, 02:36 PM

I understand why people are against more then one team at a rink, but imagine the excitement it creates at that rink when those two teams face off. There are certainly pros and cons. In Connecticut there is only one rink, but enough talent to support two teams. Should these players have to travel out of state just to find another rink? Should Colorado only have 4 teams instead of 5, because there arn't enough rinks?

Chris... What is this new organization in Tennessee going to be called?

kicksave60

08-28-2007, 09:46 PM

The Tennessee Rocky Toppers

Dave Garland

08-29-2007, 03:39 AM

Ideally it would be perfect for each team to have their own rink; however, sometimes this just doesn't work out.

Management changes, rink expenses change, teams change, etc. and sometimes there is more interest than rinks. We are blessed here to have four teams at four rinks in St. Louis; however, we would not pack up shop if we were somehow down to three or even two.

I agree however as you said that it would be great for each team to have their own rink.

sh105

08-29-2007, 01:57 PM

Which Division will the Tennessee team be in, and what city will they play in?

ACCCT2

08-29-2007, 04:29 PM

An experienced "FYI" --

Actually, "in Europe" that is NOT how it is done in either "European Soccer" or a better example, ice hockey. "Little League" is in NO way a fair or appropriate comparison of "sports" culture "in Europe" (or anywhere outside of "Little League" baseball, for that matter). Nearly all levels of team competition (especially in soccer and ice hockey, the 2 biggest "money/participation" sports in Europe), whether it is a civic, private or "pro" organization playing within the various 'divisions' and/or leagues are funded mostly "TOP-down", NOT "bottom-UP". The only way the "grass-roots" come into play is in their being expected to support the "TOP" ("pro") teams (at the "gate") that support the varrying teams/levels/leagues that are under the "pro" teams' sponsorship banners.

English soccer was never "at some point...broken up into different leagues or tiers" -- it has almost always been a "TOP-down" scenario, with the lesser teams, leagues and players almost always aspiring to the "Premier's" prestige, talent, money and financial success.

I think it's amazing how much is wrongfully assumed in regards to what is clearly an "Ameri-centric" view of the world (as they would LIKE it to be maybe?). Do even a little bit of "googling" and you'll find out that "grass-roots" organized sport support (AGAIN, in especially soccer and ice hockey) goes nowhere sponsorship/advertising/marketing-wise without the "TOP-down" support of whatever "pro" team happens to command the sponsor/advertiser/marketing "cache/cash" of the local or regional community.

Also, the assumption that a city or region can't or shouldn't feature more that one team is again NOT the thinking or actual practice "in Europe". Some of the greatest soccer and ice hockey rivalries "in Europe" are "crosstown" affairs -- not unlike the Rangers/Islanders/Devils in the NHL; Knicks/Nets, Lakers/Clippers in the NBA; Yankees/Mets, White Sox/Cubs, Giants/A's in MLB; and even USC/UCLA in NCAA anything -- AGAIN, if you don't know it for sure, do some "googling" and you'll find lods of evidence that prove this "exact opposite" assumption clearly wrong.

What Dave mentioned about "in Italy" is closer, but not relative to PIHA's situation as a so-called "pro" league. In fact, "in Italy" most of their better 'inline' hockey teams are essentially ice hockey "off-season/dry-land" fitness/training for a lot of their contract "pro" ice players, many who happen to be locals. The levels/leagues under the "TOP" ones typically feature younger, less experienced/even beginner players and is further evidence of the "TOP-down" sponsorship/advertising/marketing departments of the "pro" ice hockey teams/organizations at work (remember now, I'm talking about the "better" teams here) -- ALL of this leads to hopefully akind of "brand loyalty" among the younger players, parents and sponsors at the "pro" teams' ice and 'inline' "gates".

patb16

08-29-2007, 06:32 PM

ACCT2,

On almost every one of you're posts you go "waaaaaaaaay off the deep end". You missed my point completely and ignored the fact that that I even stated that I don't know the exact history. Actually, I don't know the history at all, nor do I care.

What I do know, however, is how European professional soccer currently operates. Many of those soccer clubs have been around for a very long time and the professional leagues over there didn't always operate by their current format. I was merely suggesting the name of the game for PIHA (not any other league) is growth, and a possible way of dealing with having lot of teams in the future would be to split it up into tiers similar to how its done with European soccer. This would only happen if and I mean a big IF PIHA or inline hockey gets to the point where it is a profitable professional sport maybe splitting a large league up into tiers might happen, but that is along way off (maybe not even in my lifetime).

We all know as you've pointed out many times that the product (inline hockey namely PIHA in your opinion) is not even close to perfect. You've also clearly have tried to point out that you know all. No one is arguing you have "superior knowledge of the sporting industry", but come on! Before you blast anyone else read what people have to say very slowly and think about the context of what's written and don't take everything so literally.

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 12:56 AM

BOY, aren't WE sensitive, eh...!?! I didn't miss your point and I've never said or intimated that I "know all" -- after 25 years in it, I DO "know" the MY business, the sponsorship/advertising/marketing arena about as well as anyone, however, and what's clear to me is that a lot of you can't stand even the littlest, most gentle bit of CONSTRUCTIVE 'commentary' (GOD FORBID, I mention ANY kind of CONSTRUCTIVE 'criticism'!) -- YOU THINK I'm TOUGH on PIHA, MLRH or whomever -- strut right into ANY major sponsor/advertiser/marketer with the amateurish ideas of what "pro" means and the excuse-ridden presentations that ANY of the so-called "pro" 'inline' leagues presently have and THEN tell me 15 minutes later when you've been politely given short-shrift and shuffled out the door that I'm "waaaaaaaaay off the deep end" on what I do or don't "know" about things that get decided at THAT level.

'Inline' hockey, for all of it's great "grass-roots" participation numbers, IS unfortunately in a "wishful thinking" mode of "If we can only make it BIG enough, they'll notice and HAVE to deal with us..." -- (in MY opinion) AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN without a "TOP-down" sponsor/advertiser/marketing strategy that STARTS with a "polished" and truly "professional" program presentation that is LEAGUE-wide and "excuse-free".

You can rag and rant on me all you want, as I've got MUCH thicker skin than a lot of the hyper(?)-sensitive types who 'read' nothing but 'negative' in what is meant to be CONSTRUCTIVE commentary.

Hmmm...HOW DOES all this have ANYTHING to do with "Tennessee PIHA"...:confused:...;)...?!?

JUST a THOUGHT --

WHY doesn't ANYONE convene an inclusive, creative, fact-finding "spit-balling" session where all the responsible and reliable organizers, leaders and visionaries of the sport come together and DO something WELL-thought-out, "TOP-down" (or "bottom-UP") "polished" and "professional" league-wise -- it could even be 'evolved' out of what PIHA and/or MLRH is currently working with, but chuck the pretentious references to "pro" until it TRULY and ACCURATELY applies in EVERY sense of the word, as we all know that using it now does a disservice to what might be MUCH BETTER sold as "pro" later.

And STAY AWAY from inviting the sand-bagging likes of the do-nothing NGB's, as they'll ONLY "be there" to collect your hard-earned money and "fees" and NEVER to actually 'invest' in what everyone HOPES will come to fruition: A TRULY "TOP-notch", paid-to-play "professional" league. SELF-organize and USE your participation numbers and attractive demographics to make YOUR OWN BEST deals and contracts. A TRULY "professional" league wouldn't be as hard as you might imagine to actually make happen if you set and decide YOUR OWN destiny with sponsors, advertisers and marketers.

AGAIN -- "Tennessee PIHA"...ANYONE...?!?

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 01:12 AM

ONE other thing --

I've NEVER said that "...the product (inline hockey namely PIHA...) is not even close to perfect..." -- ONE thing I want to make "PERFECTLY" clear: I believe the level of PIHA is indeed "top-notch", most probably the best the sport has to offer right now, and a level that would only get better with "off-season" ice hockey "pro's" also coming back to play in a "paid-to-play" league, certainly the competition for roster spots would develop and bring out the BEST in all the players vying for a spot.

But even "top-notch" play and "grass-roots" participation means absolutely SQUAT if you DON'T have a THOROUGHLY "polished" and "professional" program package/presentation to offer the major multi-national sponsors, advertisers, marketers and media that ARE the both the "oil" and "gasoline" that drives "professional" sports not just in the USA, but throughout the world.

MAN, THINK "BIG", not "eventually..."

patb16

08-30-2007, 01:29 AM

While I think you have some very valid points in that mess of quotation marks and CAPITAL LETTERS you posted (sorry, off topic), You still miss the point of what I originally was saying... I wasn't getting into anything about sponsorship, top-down marketing strategy, or etc.. Believe me I know there are major flaws in the way inline hockey whether it be amateur/international/semi-professional/professional operates.

I was merely just throwing the idea out there that I thought was pretty cool. If PIHA or any other league ever got to the point where the leagues consisted of enough teams that they could be split up into tiers like how professional soccer is in Europe, and teams could move up and down tiers based on performance in said tiers, I think that would be pretty awesome. Nothing more, nothing less.

Once again, its very obvious you have an agenda, and you feel you had to weave it into this conversation. I feel like I read your last post like 10 different times in other posts you've made on this board.

I'm not into bickering back and forth so I'm done with this topic. I think you can see where I'm coming from.

P.S. I have no why people were talking about this in the 'Tennesse PIHA' thread, I was just responding to someone else...lol

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 02:08 AM

No "agenda" at all. In an ideal world lots of things would be "pretty cool" (I agree with you!) and as you said regarding "tiered" league play, "...but that is along way off (maybe not even in my lifetime)." -- as long as people think and do small, it will be small, and sponsors, advertisers, marketers and media absolutely don't think or do "small".

As for "weaving" whatever "agenda" you're imagining that I have into this "Tennessee PIHA"(!?) thread, all I can assume you're talking about is my consistent position that what realistically ails and prevents PIHA (or MLRH or whatever wanna-be "pro" league) from actually becoming a real and viable paid-to-play "professional" league is their collective amateurish presentation that absolutely NO major sponsor, advertiser, marketer or media-outlet would buy into in virtually any way...!?!

Personally, while I have absolutely no "agenda' or stake of any kind in the status (real or imagined) of so-called "pro" 'inline' hockey, I think that the presently chosen strategy of the "bottom-UP" 'growing' of a genuine "pro" league is one that definitely will not allow you the pleasure of seeing (in your lifetime), as you said, "...leagues consisted of enough teams that they could be split up into tiers like how professional soccer is in Europe, and teams could move up and down tiers based on performance in said tiers...", as "high-octaine fuel" is never wasted (nor has much of a lasting or desired effect) on "put-put" vehicles...

Further, I think that especially the PIHA and MLRH people need to stop "bickering" and "bragging" (as there's not really much to 'brag' about right now), step back, assess their strengths, weaknesses and where their true opportunities (as defined by their "pro" ambitions) lie, and start doing something more "polished", "professional", well-thought-out and structured with their long-term strategies and program presentation...

William Bourque

08-30-2007, 03:35 AM

I really don't understand how this started on this tangent. I asked a question and got 3-4 really great replies. Answered my question. And now i'm reading about marketing, sponsorship, and a whole bunch of irrelevant blah blah blah Thanks to those who answered me, and shame on whoever wants to extend this conversation beyond the question.

PS. please tell me your going to play Rocky Top every time your team scores a goal.

SandeHockey17

08-30-2007, 06:52 AM

Ummm. I started this thread to help my guy out in Tennessee, and this is what it spawned into.... Shame on everyone for loosing the point of this. Now is there anyone in Tennessee reading this interested in PIHA? Keith said he actually got some good replies from the post here.

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 11:35 AM

Ummm, GEE, Mssrs Bourque and Sande, it seems that you two are the persons who should be "shamed", as it was you two (within each of your first posts) that were responsible for what "Tenneessee PIHA" has "spawned" into (see below), not me or anyone else.

Bourque (first post in this thread):

At what point will the PIHA start contracting and eliminate 4-5 teams from the same market? OR even 1-2 teams from the same facility. Don't get me wrong, i think the PIHA is great, and all the expansion is phenomenal. However, it just seems crazy that the league could have somewhere over 36 teams.

I understand all the problems with travel and everything. However, it seems to me that a Professional league would not have 4 teams in one market (Philly and St. Louis), not sure if you count Denver. 1-2 per market isn't entirely crazy because it happens in the four major sports.

Expansion is great for the PIHA and the sport of roller hockey, However, isn't too much expansion in such limited geography a bad thing?

I just was wondering what everyone was thinking in this manor.

Would 4 owners with four separate teams, have a better chance to survive and excel with one team and more resources?

Please don't take this as league bashing. I love the PIHA. Not that i play in it, but i do follow it with a close eye. I know many of the owners and players in this region Southeast/Southcentral PA. I am just looking to start conversation and see what anyone else is thinking on this idea.

Sande (second post in this thread):

All valid points. But this league isn't about getting paid or anything like that. The main focus of this league is primarily the expansion. By expanding more and more every season, the popularity grows, the interest grows, and more people begin to take notice of us (not just players either). Although, I 1000% agree with you about the two teams in one rink, I think that is the biggest mistake for us, although even that happens in the highest end of professional sports (Jets/Giants).

My feeling is that, if there is a rink, that houses quality players, and that rink would like to house a PIHA team, then so be it. As many rinks as possible . . . not as many teams. Buildings in this league should NOT be housing two teams. Hopefully that made sense.

What do you have against me? Why are you (and others within especially PIHA?) and why SO friggin' sensitive about someone expressing an opinion or CONSTRUCTIVE commentary? GEEZ, NO WONDER PIHA won't go anywhere with these magnificent mindsets...!!!

The "irrelavent blah blah blah" comes from people who obviously don't understand the nature of what truly ails and prevents PIHA, MLRH or any other so-called wanna-be "pro" league that comes along what will get them to their "promised land"

SO, Mssrs Bourque and Sande, for you clearly inaccurate assault on me and the timbre and timing of my postings, as well as for your "extending this conversation" into the realm of personal insults and assaults --

Shame on you...

MBurke

08-30-2007, 01:29 PM

ACCT2,

First, this is your final warning regarding double, triple and quadruple posting. Please click the submit button ONCE. If your post doesn't appear right away, give it a minute. Deleting duplicate posts every time you submit something is getting old, fast. I understand it can happen when you're rushing sometimes, but this is nearly every time you make a post and it's been ten or twelve times now, and you're the only member of over 5,000 on this bulletin board that I've seen this happen to repeatedly.

Now for the Op/Ed portion of my post.. :P

You'll probably dissect this and make another long-winded post about how I "don't get it", but I think I do.

The reason that responses now are so hostile to you is because in every single thread you frequent, you post nearly identical content about how PIHA would be shuffled out the door if they ever tried to approach a major sponsor. I don't disagree with you, and I don't think any of the posters in this thread do, either - that's exactly what would happen. That's why they're not knocking on the doors of major sponsors right now.

The crux of your disagreement seems to be use of the word "professional". We can debate the minutae for weeks on end about the wording, but what I think is more important is the future of the sport itself. You might argue that it hinges on a professional league at the top with a bunch of flash and marketing to create interest, while others contend that it requires a strong grassroots effort and fan base. You could pull out MLS as an example that grassroots efforts don't translate to a successful professional league later on, and I could respond with all four of our major sports coming from small clubs that then grew in size and consolidated. We could go on and on citing examples of leagues that have successfully built themselves from either method. The truth is that there's no single formula that guarantees success - it's a combination of factors and a little bit of luck.

If roller hockey were to put out a truly professional league (I'm talking about one that competes in scope with NHL or even the AHL) tomorrow, no one speaking in this thread would likely be able to participate. It would be filled with minor-league ice hockey players or recently retired NHLers - the skill sets involved are just too similar. To be brutally honest, I probably would watch it for a short time and then lose interest. If I want to see AHL players, I'll go watch an AHL game - all things being equal, the game's faster on ice. Instead, why not focus on fixing the NHL (the pinnacle of competition in hockey) - it has enough problems.

The paragraph above probably sums up best why I don't think you're accurate to talk about 'thinking big' or 'multinational sponsors'. At its core, roller hockey is a spinoff of ice hockey - nothing less, nothing more. Some on here may deny that all they want, but it's empirically proven that the best roller hockey players make excellent ice hockey players and vice versa, for the same reason that ex-MLB stars happen to be pretty damned good at softball.

IMO, a truly professional version of roller hockey will find it very difficult operating at anything higher than a minor-league level for any sustained period of time, and that's why PIHA is correct in sticking to a "semi-professional" approach to their league structure.

Does it need improvement in a lot of areas? Absolutely.

Do I think they expanded a dangerous amount this season? Yep.

But as you've said, you can't attract all of those sponsors without a TRULY professional product (how you get to that point without money you've never truly stated in any of your posts - I'm curious), and once that's offered I'm confident that competing leagues who already have their roots firmly entrenched in these markets (NHL, AHL, ECHL) will engage us in a bidding war for talent that will ultimately end in either roller hockey being crushed or mutual destruction.

How's that for a Doomsday scenario?

SWAMPDONKEYS29

08-30-2007, 01:29 PM

Mr. ACCCT2,

I don't think people on here are as defensive as you would like to believe. We are indeed passionate about our league (PIHA) and we are willing to defened it's approach towards the future when people question that method and our goals, both short term and long term. Please keep in mind that while you obviously disagree with this approach, the PIHA is the only inline hockey league that has continued to flourish in a sport where elite level leagues have tried and failed time and time again.

What I can tell you with 100% certainty is that you have absolutely no idea as to what is going on at the executive level of our league. The league's executive staff have been working with some very high profile sponsors in an effort to further grow the league and ultimately get us to the point where there is enough money being injected into the league that will allow us to pay the players and staff of all of the teams. Until that happens, the league will continue to take the slow and steady approach. This may not be the best approach in the eyes of someone with a degree in marketing but this is the approach that has worked for us. One thing that I can assure you is that this league will continue to grow with or without your opinions and advice. The league has a pretty good track record to back my statement.

Now, you may look at me as just another PIHA player who has thin skin and thinks that our league is better than any others. You are probably going to say that I can not take constructive critisizm. This is not the case. As much as I think that this league is going in the right direction, I do understand that it is not without it's flaws. I also think that an outsider's opinion is very important if we are to grow as a league and be able to look outside the box, so to speak. However, it should be pretty apparent that it is probably your approach to giving you opnions and advice that has rubbed people the wrong way. In one breath you say that you are not a know it all but in the next you mention that you have been in the business for 25 years and you know it about as well anyone. That sir stinks of an elitist attitude and I'm pretty sure that I speak for a lot of people when I say that it is that which pisses people off and puts them on the defensive.

I am going to close by asking you a few questions that may gain you a certain level of credability amongst the readers who have posted in response to your various posts. What is your education and background in marketing and advertising? What schooling, training, and degress do you have in that field? What are some of your major accomplishments in your field? What involvement have you had in the world of inline hockey? What do you consider your biggest acomplishment in our beloved sport? I would like to think that the methods of marketing and advertising that you preach must have been successfull in a professional sport before your interest in inline hockey developed. If this is true, please elaborate on which sport has followed that approach and what involvement, if any, you had in the success of that particular venture?

Whether you would like to believe it or not, you're coming across as a pompous blowhard and I am inviting you to respond in a way that would make a lot of us view you in a different light. If you are indeed genuine in your interest in taking this sport to the next level, perhaps you should change what seems to be the general perception of you as a businessman. While your approach to marketing and advertising could quite possibly be successfull, you have also portayed yourself as a person that very few people would like to do business with.

Ruppy Hailey

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 03:15 PM

First tihings first -- SO SORRY for the occasional double-posting, as there does seem to be a delay sometimes in posting.

As for Mike Burke's comment that, "...The reason that responses now are so hostile to you is because in every single thread you frequent, you post nearly identical content about how PIHA would be shuffled out the door if they ever tried to approach a major sponsor..." -- all I can say is go through nearly any thread in this forum that goes past "yes" or "no" or simple informational answers regarding dates, equipment, "who's best", etc., and almost invariably the commentary turns to, umm, "nearly identical content" about PIHA vs MLRH, PIHA vs the world, what's really "pro" and "how" to get to 'inline' hockey's "promised land" of real paid-to-play "pro" hockey. If you look, I usually jump in well after things have taken a turn down this road, maybe because it does involve a sport I play and love and understand, as well as does present an opportunity to suggest (from a 25-year "ad-biz" point of view) where PIHA or MLRH or whatever wanna-be "pro" league might be able to better and more efficiently accomplish scoring their goals from the sponsor, advertiser, marketing, media point of view.

And I agree with SWAMPDONKEYS29's comment and to paraphrase it "...What I can tell you with 100% certainty is that (I) have absolutely no idea as to what is going on at the executive level of (your) league..." -- absolutely correct. But if executive decisions evince and/or evidence themselves "out on the court", then I don't really need to hear word-for-word what's being "spit-balled" around a private meeting room to be able to figure out (or come to my own opinion) that maybe there's "more" that could or should be done.

Whether you want to believe it or not, I'm absolutely not taking an "elitist attitude" toward anyone. But I know my "day-job" business (advertising/marketing/media), just as I'm reasonably sure that most of you know your "day-jobs" and it's absolutely not "elitist" to politely inform someone who doesn't know something that they're mistaken -- I'm certainly not going to take offense to Mike Burke correcting me on website creation or administration or code-writing, just as I also wouldn't portent to tell a plumber how to fix a broken pipe, nor a trained mechanic how to fix a car (not to liken you to a plumber or mechanic, Mike) -- that anyone feels SO unbelievably "defensive" about CONSTRUCTIVE commentary and/or opinion -- GEEZ, what gives with your incredibly thin skins...?!?

While I am a "businessman" (not subject to your approval, by the way), I've never come to this site as such -- I come as a way to keep in touch, to feel the 'pulse" of what's going on in the sport, not to 'pontificate' or 'nit-pick' at others failures or skewed reasoning (of which there is a lot) -- that only my postings generate such emotional, "defensive" and viciously vitriolic replies seems to speak to the fact that I might be touching some extremely sensitive nerves, don't you think...??? WHY...???

As I'm absolutely not interested in a job with PIHA or MLRH or whatever else comes down the pike 'inline' wise, I see no need to justify or publicly advertise my credentials to anyone (especially at this site, with such ironically thin-skinned puck-people) -- apparently I'm the only person who makes you all feel SO uncomfortable in regards to an informed, experienced opinion of what ails the "vehicle" (from my point of view) that you feel like telling the "mechanic" how to fix your "car" (that you yourselves can't quite get to run the way it could and should).

Just so you know, I'm already well under way in taking my own separate business "tack" with regards to my passion and vision for the sport and my "interest in taking this sport to the next level", as you said -- GOOD LUCK with your's. In the meantime I hope that dissenting opinion will still be welcome and encouraged at IHC, as most reasonable and experienced people would say that that's truly how the BEST ideas ultimately come to fruition...!!!

GROWL

08-30-2007, 03:27 PM

Mike,

I too am worried about the amount of expansion that has been proposed this year. Great point!

ACCT,

I am in complete agreement with both Ruppy and Mike. PIHA is in a building process. Your comparisons to the NHL and other leagues, just doesn't apply. We are building toward something and not representing otherwise. The plan is fairly simple; Build a very large league (over time) and sell by numbers. I've said this before... If you are so motivated, then please contact the league and lend a hand, otherwise the 6 paragraph disertations on major sponsorships need to stop, because it is getting pretty repetative. You are not critiquing a finished product, please remember that.

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 04:00 PM

OK, YOU win -- let's let the plumber fix the car...!!!

SWAMPDONKEYS29

08-30-2007, 04:20 PM

Just as I thought.

Once again you are resorting to calling us thin skinned and accusing us of not being able to take constructive critisizm. Did I call that one or not?

You've had your chance to grab people's attention with your until recently unmentioned opinions on how to bridge the gap between where the sport is now and what it could be. Unfortunately, you've chosen to recycle the same propaganda that makes up your every post. I did honestly believe that you were a person who had some great ideas but for one reason or another were unable to convey them in a manner in which people would feel comfortable discussing or even debating them with you. I am now convinced otherwise.

You've also had your chance to gain credability in the eyes of many IHC members (which somewhat understandably does not matter to you) but you instead have decided to further give us reason to question your credentials. I wasn't asking for your social security number or even your name for that matter, I was simply asking you to list some of your accomplishments in the business world that would make me feel like I am dealing with someone who has the qualifications to make the statements that you have that contain such a matter of fact tone. I also asked you to give me an example that would support your opinions and advice in regards to the success any other professional sport and you've managed to side step that question.

You also mention that you have not come to this board as a businessman. Well sir, you are the one who felt it was necessary to mention (on a number of occasions) that you are a 25 year veteran of the advertising and marketing business. While that in fact may or may not be the case, I would like to think that someone with that much experience would have a better handle on how to communicate with people in general. Your "my way or the highway" approach to this topic can in no way, shape, or form be productive in the business world. In addition, your inability to have people negatively respond to your thoughts and opinions leaves you as thin skinned as you are accusing a lot of us as being.

In closing, after reading your post, perhaps it was I who in fact touched a nerve.

Ruppy Hailey

GROWL

08-30-2007, 06:33 PM

Plumbers in Hockey Association

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 06:34 PM

Tut-tut now, you give yourself far too much credit.

Are you part of the PIHA "us", if so I understand your sensitity.

And I certainly don't need to "gain credibility" with anyone in a 'forum', as the entire nature of "forums" is discussion, discourse and yes, even "dissertation" on whatever. the only reson I've ever brough up my "25 years" of "ad-biz" experience is in direct response to others' challenges of what or why I should know anything about what I'm talking about -- and then your collective response is to demand my proprietary business contacts, relationships and history...!?! You've got to be seriously "off" if you think I'd trust any of your un-businesslike type with such information.

But just for the record, I and my company have worked with major international corpoate clients and advertising agencies from "A-to-Z" on such accounts as: AC Delco; Almay; American Airlines; American Brands; Anheuser-Busch (and all of their various brands); AT&T; Avis; Best Buy; BMW; Bridgestone; Buick; Chevrolet; Chrysler (corporate, as well as all of their various brands); Cisco Systems; Coca-Cola (and all of their various brands); Cover Girl; Dole Foods; Eastern Airlines; FedEx; Firestone; Folger's; Gap; General Mills; General Motors (corporate, as well as all their various brands); Hallmark; IBM; Johnson & Johnson's; Kraft Foods; Lancome'; Land Rover; Maybelline; Merck; Mercedes Benz; Microsoft; Miller Brewing Company (and all of their various brands); National Rent-a-Car; Nissan; Northwest Airlines; Oracle; Pearl Vision; Pepsi Cola (and all of their various brands); Revlon; Sony (and all of their various brands); TWA; United Airlines; Verizon; Xerox; Zanex and Zenith...just to name a few.

As humbly as I can say and mean it, I've probably sat in on more sponsorship/advertising meetings than all of you combined, so I know the business and what it resonds to and supports. And while it's definitely not "my way or the highway" (where did you get that?), my advice and commentary to all of you is that the present state of any of the so-called "pro" leagues is not anywhere near where any major sponsor would come on-board and make a truly "paid-to-play", "professional" league possible -- and (in my own humble opinion) if you think that you can somehow "grow" a league the way it's presently being done and attract the kind of sponsorship/advertising/marketing/media support that makes such a truly "pro" league viable, well then, I guess there's something to say about the power of "wishful thinking" indeed...

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 06:37 PM

And I like GROWL's 'PIHA' callout (c'mon, it is funny!)...!!!

Fireants91

08-30-2007, 07:40 PM

I don't ever remember anyone asking you to post your resume and a list of references so we could check up on you, all we wanted to know is who this person is that continues to tell us how much we suck at marketing and our league will never amount to anything. However to expect us to respect what you have to say by throwing around how much experience you have blah blah blah but refusing to give us any insight as to who you are is a little ridiculous as well. Wayne Gretzky could come on here anonymously and tell us we all suck at hockey, which compared to him would be true, but we would still want to verify the legitimacy of his identity.

Whats the big deal about us knowing who you are anyway? What are you afraid of?

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 09:06 PM

WOW, you guys are absolutely amazing with your back-n-forth "we want"/"we didn't want" routines (I haven't "thrown around" anything about myself that wasn't first demanded by the "Thread Police") -- just the fact that you'd say you'd have to "verify the legitimacy" of Wayne Gretzky's "identity" (online "anonymously" or not) tells me all I need to know about who's stewarding and, umm, "growing" the (PIHA?) game...

It all comes down to you seem to take any kind of differing CONSTRUCTIVE commentary or opinion as an all-out assault on on your vision -- GEEZ, even 5 years "growing-time" from now you guys won't survive 5 minutes in a major sponsor's office. Why does it bother you SO much about whatever someone you don't know says about your plans or vision -- except that maybe you know that there's 'truth' and 'common sense' in what's been opined maybe...!?!

I've got my 300,000 Euros (from just one corporate sponsor!) for what is a single "stand-alone" event right now -- I guess I must not know what I'm talking about sponsorship/advertising/marketing/media-wise and GOSH-OH-GOLLY, must be doing somethng incredibly wrong to have done so poorly in only my first sponsorship proposal presentation, eh...!?!

But YOU ALL KNOW what you're doing SO expertly, so I guess it's just pity poor me...

MBurke

08-30-2007, 09:20 PM

I have 4 million dollars lined up in ad buys for college roller hockey. Or if it helps in the context of the argument, I'm in the middle of designing a web site for a major professional sports league. It was 'easy'.

See how ridiculous it sounds without any corroborating evidence, ESPECIALLY when you have almost no history on the board? Someone could come on here claiming to be Donald Trump and give everyone real estate advice, but without any evidence to back up his identity wouldn't you be a little skeptical?

I'm not saying that you're lying, just that you shouldn't be so appalled that people are taking your claims with a grain of salt considering there is so little substance to back it up.

ACCCT2

08-30-2007, 09:33 PM

Once again, AMAZING...!?! GOOD LUCK all you expert and deserving 'scions' of the game, as you're REALLY going to need it the way you all seem to immaturely and un-professionally handle CONSTRUCTIVE commentary...

Needless to say, I'll be doing my research, as well as steering my recommendations to sponsors interested in the 'pulse' of the game elsewhere...

Anyone up for a 5-year "gentlemen's" bet (probably not, eh!?)...???

MBurke

08-30-2007, 09:44 PM

With few exceptions, I don't think anyone has handled your so-called constructive criticism unprofessionally, much less immaturely. Since you seem so bent on educating us on the definition of professional and how poorly we use it, I might point out that you're leaving out the 'constructive' part of your 'criticism'.

You see, unless your criticism offers some level of solution or help, it's not constructive; it's just criticism.

Just in this thread alone, you've denied any substantive proof to back up any of your experience, refused to provide any suggestions because they impinge on some type of 'proprietary' trade secrets you have, and generally failed to refute any of the arguments set forth - instead, you just tell everyone that they don't have the experience you do (without really divulging any of said experience) and leave it at that.

I'm not saying you're compelled or even at liberty to discuss a lot of this stuff, but throwing your hands up at the lot of we, the 'unenlightened', seems rather unreasonable considering the dearth of information you've provided.

GROWL

08-30-2007, 10:41 PM

And I like GROWL's 'PIHA' callout (c'mon, it is funny!)...!!!

I was just trying to lighten the mood. :rolleyes:

SPORTSPLEXJEFF

08-31-2007, 09:21 AM

ACCT2 since you have come out here on this board being constructive and seem to know the way in your own mind, I will offer you some embracement. THe Feasterville Fury is looking for somebody in the marketing department. Please come on down and give me the advice to help market my team better. As you know most organizations are run by volunteers like myself, I would gladly appreciate any help you can bring to the table.

If you didn't pick up my sarcasm then now you know I would never want somebody to help me who is so arrogant.

Congratulations on your years of marketing background. Unfortunately I feel your marketing skills are no match for mine or any of the other members of teams in this league.

I for one have no problems in working on getting sponsors. My background in life is sales in the Real Estate industry and Mortgage Industry. Before you attack me and my background so you know I am one of the people who runs my company. Which by the way has 6 divisions for different fields in the real estate and mortgage industry. My job is to sell people a product they need such as a mortgage, house, appraisal, and title insurance. After building into 18 states in one year (our company has been around for 15 years) and in the process of opening in 7 more states come October of 2007 I also head up building our net branches.

Your callous answers and a spewing verbal assault with no primary intiative other than to cause controversy makes me laugh. Since you have come into our world I will even offer my services to yours. I am sure you wouldn't like me coming into your world. I would walk in to anyone of your clients and promise you that by the time I leave they would forget your name and your company. So anytime you would like to step up with your arrogant machismo against a person who knows his caliber of marketing and business skill I will gladly wipe the floor with you and you know where to find me!

Jeff Haze
President Feasterville Fury
Your Worthy Advesary

ACCCT2

08-31-2007, 09:50 AM

Hmmm... MY "...callous answers and a spewing verbal assault with no primary intiative other than to cause controversy ..." -- WHERE in any of MY posts do you get ANY of this...?!?

And "into your world" -- EXCUSE ME, but the length and breadth and whole of the 'inline' hockey "world" is (THANKFULLY, THANK GOD) absolutely NOT determined by ONLY the sorry, paranoid and un-professional likes of YOU...!!!

I have NEVER "attacked" anyone, nor anyone's efforts or vision -- UNLIKE a LOT of YOU who read anything 'contrary' as an "attack" or "assault" on your efforts and vision...

I have NEVER in my prdfessional careeer violated or shared entrusted "proprietary information" like some here have...

You PIHA guys are almost BIZZARELY FUNNY, 'know what I'm sayin' -- read ALL of my posts and then read all your reponses to them (especially the PIHA ones) -- talk about PARANOID, "HYPER-sensitive" and "defensive" -- GEEZ, outside of only a couple of you who show a true "open-mindedness" and tolerence for differing opinion, the overall skin seems to be quite "baby-thin" and "sensitive"...!!!

REALLY --

"...So anytime you would like to step up with your arrogant machismo against a person who knows his caliber of marketing and business skill I will gladly wipe the floor with you and you know where to find me!..."

WHAT an ABSURDLY IMMATURE and OBVIOUSLY IL-&-UN-INFORMED

SandeHockey17

08-31-2007, 09:55 AM

Mr. Burke . . . . is there a "Delete Account" button you can hit?

ACCCT2

08-31-2007, 10:02 AM

ACCCT2

08-31-2007, 10:11 AM

Where's GROWL or Dave -- we need the "mood" lightened again...!?!

SPORTSPLEXJEFF

08-31-2007, 10:19 AM

Then step up big boy!

WHAT an ABSURDLY IMMATURE and OBVIOUSLY IL-&-UN-INFORMED

Threatening somebody with a lawsuit on a free message board thats true class.

Are all of you guys up for chipping in money to send this ego-maniacal guy to charm school.

By the way I still haven't seen any information about your tournament for the 200,000 euros since July. I am still waiting patiently for my information packet. Great marketing techniques being used there!

ACCCT2

08-31-2007, 10:40 AM

Actually, the "true class" is in those who feel it their ignorant, intolerable and un-American right to 'silence' others by having someone else "delete" their voice -- NEED I say ANY more...!?!

The only "threats" here have come (repeatedly) from you, SPORTSPLEXJEFF, as my politely reminding Mr. Burke of the editorial standards (that further go towards the right of legally protecting someone's name and reputation against slander and libel and their damages) and his college-educated-&-life-experienced "GOOD sense" to NOT allow the rantings of a (PIHA?) "mob" be "silenced" simply because someone differs with them.

Mr. Burke, I hope and trust you will maintain IHC's editorial integrity.

MBurke

08-31-2007, 10:43 AM

Mr Burke, THAT would be an INCREDIBLY UN-ETHICAL, WRONG and LEGALLY-PURSUED action that I would HOPE you had the editorial and professional integrity and GOOD sense to NOT let happen. Is this the PIHA-backers ONLY forum or is it the IHC forum...?!? WHAT is WITH these people, anyway...!?!

You had me until 'legally pursued'. I'm not quite sure what level of legal training you have (hopefully at least a cursory amount considering your extensive background), but here are the facts as I see them.

Rich Graham owns the site and content. I own the servers on which this site is hosted. Prohibiting you access to either of these is no violation of your rights, nor is it even remotely illegal. Read those terms of service you agreed to when you signed up for an account once more.

Anyhow, I won't be deleting your account at this point, but I would like to point out to IHC readers that if they would like to ignore ANY user's posts, they can click on the user's name on any post, select the "view profile" option, and select the 'ignore all posts by' link on the resulting page.

As for your libel/slander claim, I'm not sure how either has been attacked since your identity isn't even verified and thus no damage could be claimed. It's like Bruce Wayne filing a suit because someone insulted Batman.