Ncrha / Ncaa Eligibility Question

[imasamurai]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere, I don't remember if it was on the NCRHA.Org web site or not, that the NCRHA has adopted the NCAA 5 year eligibilty rule.

Am I correct? If I am, when does the rule go into effect?

Also, if the rule were to go into effect for the 2008-2009 season, when does the clock start ticking? For example, do you count the 2008-2009, 2007-2008, 2006-2007, 2005-2006 & 2004-2005 Seasons? Or, do you start counting in the 2008-2009 season.

The reason I ask is notice some teams that have guys playing for what seems like forever because they are graduate assistants. Sure doesn't seem fair to the younger guys.

[Leaferguy]

I believe it started in 03-04. I know I've used three of my years and this will be my fourth. My first season in ECRHA B Division was in 04-05.

Another guy on our team played eight seasons with our team, and I think last year was his last one eligible, which would mean it was 03-04. Either way, a lot of guys are going to hit that wall this year and next.

[imasamurai]

I think I found what I was looking for http://www.ncrha.org/pps-medias/4262.pdf


C.General Player Eligibility

i. The NCRHA does not discriminate against gender and is an equal-opportunity
organization that permits coed participation.
ii. Effective September 1, 2007: A student-athlete shall not be eligible for
participation in the NCRHA if the individual received pay for participation in the
sport at any point in the past or is contracted to do so in the future.
a) In the context of this rule, pay shall be defined as receiving compensation
(monetary or otherwise) in excess of the sum total of the cost of uniform,
equipment and travel/practice/game expenses.
b) In the event of a challenge upon eligibility under this rule, players who have
participated in professional or semi-professional roller hockey leagues must
submit documentation indicating that pay was not received by said player.
iii. Student athletes appearing on any NCRHA roster must be age seventeen (17) or
older as of September 1st of the current season.
a) Players over age 17 but under age 18 must have written parental consent to
participate in NCRHA activities.
iv. Student athletes shall have five (5) years of NCRHA eligibility.
v. Junior or Community College players participating in Division III shall have three
(3) years of Division III eligibility.
a) Years of eligibility used in Division III shall count towards the five-year total
eligibility provided to all NCRHA student athletes
vi. GRANDFATHER RULE – The current standard for NCRHA student athletes
is five years of eligibility. Eligibility is only charged to seasons sanctioned by the NCRHA
(2003-2004 and later). Players who participated in the Collegiate Roller Hockey
League (CRHL) are not charged against the five-year maximum for seasons prior
to 2003-2004. In addition, Article V Section C shall not apply to players who have
already established eligibility with NCRHA.

[imasamurai]

At a glance, it should affect a team like like the Towson DI team a lot.

I took the following off the NCRHA web site:

Stein: 03-04,04-05,05-06,06-07 *1 year of eligibility left
Pantaleo: 03-04,04-05,05-06,06-07 *1 year of eligibility left
Tamburino: 02-03,03-04,04-05,05-06,06-07 *1 year of eligibility left (02-03 Grandfathered Out)
Harrell: 02-03,03-04,04-05,05-06,06-07 *1 year of eligibility left (02-03 Grandfathered Out)
Pumphrey: 02-03,03-04,04-05,06-07 *1 year of eligibility left
Vensel: 02-03,03-04,04-05,06-07 *1 year of eligibility left
Burke: 02-03,03-04,04-05,05-06,06-07 *1 year of eligibility left (02-03 Grandfathered Out)

Out of the 11 guys on their roster page, 7 will play their last season of eligibility in 07-08. The 08-09 season should see a big change in the Towson roster.

[imasamurai]

Took a look at RIT's DI roster and they'll see some major changes after the 2007-2008 season as well.

[GoRangrHky]

The NCRHA rule is different than the NCAA rule. The NCAA rule states that must complete your 4 years of eligibility within 5 years of starting classes at the University. The NCRHA rule allows you to play 5 years total, with no regard to the time between when you started and when you complete it (meaning you could take 3 years off between undergrad and grad school, and still be able to play for as many years as you have remaining), so long as you are taking the appropriate number of classes/ credits.

The seasons go back, so any seasons already played (in the NCRHA) are counted towards the total. I think the 'Effective Sept. 1 '07' part was designed more for the monetary part of that rule.

[MBurke]

At a glance, it should affect a team like like the Towson DI team a lot.

Sort of. Half those guys graduated and won't even be on the roster this season.

[imasamurai]

I think guys playing for 6 years (with the Grandfather clause) is just plain wrong. It doesn't give the younger guys who started on their B teams a chance to taste D1 because they were boxed out by the older guys who are on the 10 year plan for their Masters. Seems the older guys are only thinking about themselves and not the overall program. I'm sure it causes some resentment among the players and has a negative effect on morale.

[GoRangrHky]

There was a whole thread on this already. Some people say it's good because it allows guys to pass down info and show players the right way to do things, since many teams have a change in leadership (rather than a coach who does everything and will always be there). Others think the way that you do. The number of people playing for 6 years in the league is very minimal, maybe 10-12 total in all of the ECRHA. I can really only think of 5 off the top of my head, and I don't even know if 3 of them will be playing next year. Most of those players are the ones who created their teams or have a strong hand in it's growth, and believe me, do care about it.

At all levels of collegiate hockey (and college sports in general), there's always going to be a kid who plays behind an upperclassman and then doesn't get a spot after that person graduates becasue a stud freshman comes in. Or they come in at the same time as someone else, and never get a chance to make it. So to say that 5 or 6 people (in total) are really holding back the league or completely squashing the chances of someone playing is really pushing it. It's not like there's a team out there who has full lines of players who have been playing for 6-7-8 years, it's a few players scattered over a few teams.

[imasamurai]

GoRangrKky - Thanks for your input. Sorry to be redundant with a similar thread. I didn't do a search to see if this topic was discussed before.

IMO - The NCAA rule works better: 5 years of eligibility to play 4 years. And, the sport would stand a better chance, some day, of possibly becoming an NCAA sport.

[Drexel63]

And, the sport would stand a better chance, some day, of possibly becoming an NCAA sport.

Yep, then we would have a 1.2% chance instead of just 1%...

I hate to be a pessimist about the NCAA affiliation topic, but seriously... take a look through the archives of this forum and you will find enough material on this subject alone to keep you reading for a month without stopping... This has been debated, alluded to, and aspired for since I was a freshman in '99...

[GoRangrHky]

The NCAA will never make something a sport/ not make something a sport because of the eligibility requirements is already has in place. The NCAA would not simply 'absorb' the NCRHA, but would simply make it's own league of teams that are required to conform to it's standards. And at that, everyone who had played in the NCRHA would still have all their NCAA eligibility left, since the only thing that would prevent NCAA eligibility would be professional particiapation, which the NCRHA has no part of.

Anyway, 4 in 5 makes little sense, especially to clubs that have floundering membership as it is. And for that, I would look at the 64% of teams in the ECRHA alone that don't have B teams.

[RustyPipes27]

I think guys playing for 6 years (with the Grandfather clause) is just plain wrong. It doesn't give the younger guys who started on their B teams a chance to taste D1 because they were boxed out by the older guys who are on the 10 year plan for their Masters. Seems the older guys are only thinking about themselves and not the overall program. I'm sure it causes some resentment among the players and has a negative effect on morale.

Are you speaking from experience or are you just throwing out assumptions? I'm a grad student at Towson and we've hardly had any problems with grad students being around. I've been here for a year and there is zero animosity between the young guys and the old guys. If some 18 or 19-year old isn't good enough to beat out a washed up 25-year old like myself, then that's his problem anyways, right?

And one more thing for clarification...while I'm not on your alleged "ten year plan," there are a lot of master's students who have full-time jobs, take a couple of classes a year, and take years to graduate.

I do agree with your stance on the five-year rule though. I think five years is enough -- this year will be my fifth and final year, as I'll be picking up my master's in the fall. I just urge you to not make assumptions about the lives, situations, and intentions of your peers unless you know them firsthand.

[smiller]

I think guys playing for 6 years (with the Grandfather clause) is just plain wrong. It doesn't give the younger guys who started on their B teams a chance to taste D1 because they were boxed out by the older guys who are on the 10 year plan for their Masters. Seems the older guys are only thinking about themselves and not the overall program. I'm sure it causes some resentment among the players and has a negative effect on morale.

As one of the "younger" guys myself, I can say having the more experienced players around actually helped me alot. Now granted I played on Towson's B team my 3 years there but I can tell you my first year when we had 2 players who werent first year players it was rough, especially early in the season. The older guys on the DI team helped us alot by just talking to us and helping us at practice. Now in my second and third years when the team was more experience we had much better seasons. In addition to that we had guys move up from the B team to the DI team.

As for your statement about the older guys not thinking about the program...I can assure you that wasnt the case at Towson. The guys on the DI were more than supportive of us. They did whatever they could to help us. And for that I say thanks to those guys.

The only reason I felt I had to say something is because we were the example used. So I felt I should throw in my $0.02 about having those guys around. So I guess what Im saying is I can see what you mean, but its not always true.

[JLambertUMSL]

The NCAA thing is irrelevant. We don't need the NCAA.

Roller hockey is fortunate that it isn't an NCAA sport, because the NCAA is horribly corrupt. College roller hockey can grow on its own, as long as the NCRHA provides strong leadership and guidance. Forget the NCAA.

But that's another subject.

To be worthy of being called Collegiate, the NCRHA needs rules like the eligibility limit. You have to start somewhere. The five-year rule is a must.

I'll be the first to point out that UMSL has a few guys who played pre-NCRHA and have played five or six years already (my brother Ben is one of them, our captain and best returning player, Adam Clarke, is another, and of course you all know Mr. BigPads, the only DII goaltender ever to post back-to-back shutouts at Nationals).

There are players like them at many different schools. SLU has a couple as well. We might as well concede that these guys, and their teams, are the lucky ones, and move on. We're only a year away from almost all of the six-year players being phased out.

As for the NCRHA rule: five years is enough. I hear lots of strange arguments for changing that rule, usually in the form of a tearjerker scenario that sees some hypothetical player get screwed by the system.

But the expiration of your NCRHA eligibility doesn't mean you have to say goodbye to your organization.

Players whose eligibility has expired can share their experiences by coaching, administrating, advising, donating, and sharing whatever talents they have to publicize, guide, and nurture their club.

It will be impossible for any club to catch up to The Mighty Lion (or to get close enough to compete, at least) without:

- donations
- coaching staffs and "front offices" made up of adults
- donations
- actively building a strong tradition, piece by piece, year round
- donations
- caring about their image as a club -- passion and professionalism
- donations
- recruiting as hard as they can -- pursuing every lead (because there are many good hockey players who don't even know they have the option of playing college roller hockey), branching out to alma mater high schools, being visible at the rinks, on campus, and in the community.
- donations
- a culture of hard work -- not just "workin' hard when I feel like it," but an ingrained work ethic, because it means something to wear this jersey.
- donations
- donations
- donations

Alumni can help with all of the above.

As players' eligibility expires, hopefully that means stronger clubs because of the growing network of alumni.

I think the most successful clubs over the next few years might be the ones whose alumni stay involved. Who has more resources (financial and otherwise) at his disposal: a college student or a college graduate? A 20-year-old or a 28-year-old? Who's more likely to command the respect that allows a leader to set high standards? Who's more likely to have the guts to follow through on those high standards? Who's probably going to have more real-world experience with business, relating with different kinds of people, whatever?

I'm guessing it'll be the adults.

STAY INVOLVED.

[smiller]

JLambert-

I agree with you 100%. Very well said.

[imasamurai]

Are you speaking from experience or are you just throwing out assumptions? I'm a grad student at Towson and we've hardly had any problems with grad students being around. I've been here for a year and there is zero animosity between the young guys and the old guys. If some 18 or 19-year old isn't good enough to beat out a washed up 25-year old like myself, then that's his problem anyways, right?

And one more thing for clarification...while I'm not on your alleged "ten year plan," there are a lot of master's students who have full-time jobs, take a couple of classes a year, and take years to graduate.

I do agree with your stance on the five-year rule though. I think five years is enough -- this year will be my fifth and final year, as I'll be picking up my master's in the fall. I just urge you to not make assumptions about the lives, situations, and intentions of your peers unless you know them firsthand.

ZERO ANIMOSITY - ARE YOU KIDDING ME OR WHAT? We all know what happened last season. Nice try at a cover up.

You stated the problem perfectly: If some 18 or 19 year old isn't good enough to beat out a washed up 25-year old like yourself, then that's the problem anyways, right? RIGHT? For you it's time to grow up.

Oh yeah, I KNOW FIRST HAND.

[MBurke]

I don't know what first-hand knowledge you think you have, but any animosity last year wasn't a DI/B thing, nor did it have anything to do with eligibility.

I don't know how much sense your theory makes when none of the players last year (self excluded, and I played more B games last year than I did DI games) were past the 5 years of eligibility even with the 'free pass' the CRHL/NCRHA change allowed. Towson's only played one year in the CRHL, so last year was year 5 of their existence in intercollegiate hockey.

But whatever, you guys all seem to like to make college roller hockey into Days of Our Lives, so make up whatever theories you want about what the problems may or may not have been.

The always-reliable NCRHA Rumor Mill has also 'proven' that ECRHA staff get free cars from Red Bull, that Towson gives full scholarships to get people to play there, and that USA Hockey pays college roller hockey administrators obscene amounts of money to run the regions.

I agree that we should cap at 5 years. I also know that there are no records back past the first year of NCRHA for most regions (not everybody even kept complete stats back in 2001!), so it's impossible to enforce the 5-year rule until next year when we have complete rosters/records going back 5 years for all regions. Those guys in the ECRHA/SCHL/etc who have the records going back further just got lucky, and I think the number of affected players is so small that it's not even worth as big an argument as some are trying to make it.

[William Bourque]

Burke,

When will i be getting that car from Red Bull. I recently hit a deer with my car a new one would be just about perfect.

Get back to me.

Bill

[RustyPipes27]

First off, I was being sarcastic and taking a shot at myself when I said that it's someone else's problem if they can't beat out a washed up 25-year old.

Secondly, enlighten us then. What really happened last season if you know first hand?

[JLambertUMSL]

I agree that we should cap at 5 years. I also know that there are no records back past the first year of NCRHA for most regions (not everybody even kept complete stats back in 2001!), so it's impossible to enforce the 5-year rule until next year when we have complete rosters/records going back 5 years for all regions. Those guys in the ECRHA/SCHL/etc who have the records going back further just got lucky, and I think the number of affected players is so small that it's not even worth as big an argument as some are trying to make it.

It's too bad the entire GPCIHL 2003-04 regular season and Regionals has been wiped off the system due to whatever kind of data disaster happened a couple years ago....if that data exists ANYWHERE, in ANY form, I would love to have it.

That disaster also means that the only way anyone can prove that someone played for a GPCIHL team in 2003-04 is if the player in question played at Nationals.

(Anyway....as players' eligibility expires, there's little doubt that there will be people trying to manipulate the system. Personally, I'm watching EVERYONE, because without competitive integrity, no trophy is worth a damn.)

[dan sangiorgio]

ZERO ANIMOSITY - ARE YOU KIDDING ME OR WHAT? We all know what happened last season. Nice try at a cover up.

You stated the problem perfectly: If some 18 or 19 year old isn't good enough to beat out a washed up 25-year old like yourself, then that's the problem anyways, right? RIGHT? For you it's time to grow up.

Oh yeah, I KNOW FIRST HAND.
maybe you should quit hockey then if you are gonna be bitter about getting cut from a team ........ you think college roller hockey is the only sport were its hard for a true freshman to get a spot on a college team. neumanns ice hockey team recruits about 15 candiens a year who come in as 22 year old freshman. point being good programs are always going to be hard to make. Just like at towson if you go to neumann chances are if you get cut your freshman year you will have a hard time making the team because there are good players constantly coming in who are going to be impact players for 4 or 5 years this past season we only had 2 new skaters on the team and only one cracked the lineup on a regualr basis and our team had 0 super seniors on our team last year so i don't think age has as much to do with as you think.

[roy94]

It’s amazing how often the individuals who disagree with an NCRHA policy extol the injustices of that policy on a public message board. Then in an effort to justify their stance, instead of using well thought out arguments that explain why the old plan/ policy was unjust what the NEW plan to implement should be along with how its to be implemented and why its better, they make claims they cant substantiate to fortifiy their position. Argument 101 at its finest I suppose.

Beyond that, the argument that having, as Pipes put it, “washed up 25 year olds” on the roster doesn’t allow younger players a chance at playing is fairly short sighted. The purpose of non-B division teams, as I understand it, is to be as competitive as possible. The DI, at least in Towson’s case, was assembled to form the most competitive team possible. This was regardless of an arbitrary number such as weight, height, slap shot velocity, previous experience on the team or age. The players who were deemed to provide the D-1 club with the best chance for success were on the team. Like most all competitive athletic teams the ability of the athlete to help his team achieve success was the determining factor. I would imagine that’s how the vast majority of NCRHA teams operate also. That’s not to say the B-team didn’t have the same goals and expectations. It’s just to reason that as with all sub division or junior varsity level teams the emphasis, in terms of the overall club development and growth, is on development of players.

Personally I thought their were several players on our, Towson University’s, B-team last year who could have, and at times did have, a positive impact on the D-1 teams success. That said those same players while marginal on the D-1 team were outstanding performers on the B level and helped that team get a bid to nationals. Those same players are expected this year to move up to the D-1 team and hopefully continue and build on the success we’ve already been fortunate enough to achieve.

The question is; would they, having played marginally in “pressure” situations on the D-1 team, be in a situation to contribute as much as they are now having been in those situations consistently at the B level? It stands to reason, I believe, that sitting on the bench during the critical situations would have stunted their development far more then playing in those situations time and again.

If the underlying argument however is not the belief that playing on the B team for an extended period stunts development but instead everyone, regardless of ability, should have a chance on the D-1 team, then the only argument I can offer is that competitive athletics are about competition. They are not a “feel good” day care. Placement on the teams, again at least at Towson, is and always has been an open competition. No one was guaranteed a spot because of a name or past experience. If you had a problem with your role your options were either #1 leave or #2 get better and take someone else’s roster spot. If the D-1 team takes 12 players be in the top 12, if they are taking 10 be in the top 10. Its really that simple. If the players ahead of you are better, improve, become better than they are. Crying about the injustice of someone taking your spot or holding you back because they are older or a grad student, if they are the better skilled/ suited player, is childish and idiotic. This isn’t T-ball, its college athletics. The best play.

There are many examples of 23,24,25,26 year old, and older, college athletes. Some of these have been star players on major Division I football programs. BYU typically has a roster full of 23, 24 and 25 year olds. Many “seniors” on programs are actually graduate students during their 4th and 5th years and if you have a medical hardship occasionally the NCAA grants a 6th year of eligibility. Why should the NCRHA limit participation, as a club sport, because of age or degree status more so then the NCAA? On that, I think it would behoove everyone concerned in this matter to actually understand the NCAA rules on eligibility. Look them up, NCAA.org go to the eligibility section. You’ll be surprised at what you read and how it applies. Many graduate and undergraduate players would be ineligible if the NCRHA adopted the NCAA eligibility standards.

In regards to the entire NCAA conundrum, the chances of this EVER happening are slim and none. In reality it shouldn’t even be a far off goal at this point. With the number of established and sometimes very successful NCAA programs that are being cut at schools it is, in all reality, not realistic that any school would want a roller hockey program. With more and more schools trying to save money by cutting the secondary programs roller hockey would just replace a more established sport. Why cut the other sport in the first place then? With swimming, wrestling, cross country, diving, volleyball even lacrosse (in some areas) being cut (among others) because of lack of available funds or as a way to appear closer to title IX it just doesn’t seem feasible. Until football is placed in a separate category any hope of roller hockey being an NCAA sport is fairly unrealistic. Even rugby and boxing are not NCAA sports. I would guess they are much cheaper to field and outfit not to mention recruit and secure sponsorship dollars for. Remember, the vast majority of NCAA sports lose money consistently. When you think about it from the schools standpoint, except for a select few, a roller hockey program doesn’t make sense.

[MBurke]

It's too bad the entire GPCIHL 2003-04 regular season and Regionals has been wiped off the system due to whatever kind of data disaster happened a couple years ago....if that data exists ANYWHERE, in ANY form, I would love to have it.

That disaster also means that the only way anyone can prove that someone played for a GPCIHL team in 2003-04 is if the player in question played at Nationals.

(Anyway....as players' eligibility expires, there's little doubt that there will be people trying to manipulate the system. Personally, I'm watching EVERYONE, because without competitive integrity, no trophy is worth a damn.)

If I'm not mistaken, we have the rosters for that season. At the very least I know I should have paper records of those rosters filed away in storage.

[tambo6]

IMASAMURAI please get on a rink with me. Roy, you should come to.

[smiller]

IMASAMURAI please get on a rink with me. Roy, you should come to.

I dont know why, but I get the feeling IMASAMURAI already has....or will come September

[imasamurai]

My days at Towson are over. Thanks for the invite though.

[MBurke]

Jonas,

Too bad. I'm sure those guys will miss you :p

[InlineMBA]

My son will be an incoming Freshman at Towson University in September. He just got his schedule for the Fall 2007 semester and I have a question for anyone out there from the Towson Roller Hockey team.

I'd appreciate it if someone would email me at [email protected] so I can address my question one-on-one.

Thanks,

Steve Inge

[InlineMBA]

Mike - Thanks

Steve Inge