Logos and being original

[rhhof]

Not trying to make a case of it, but c'mon guys -- stealing logos the past few years and not creating new identities...what gives, first CO with them now Cali bringing back two from the RHI out there

I'm sure certain people might see this when it its now going nationwide and wondering that there might be some legal action taken by the original owners of some of them. I am about being original and identifying with areas....Im still trying to figure out when their were Bulls in Chicago - Most of the names work, but the logos....Maybe if Bill went back in time he'd have a case, but the RHI ones.....most were copyrighted or trademarked so be careful

Either way, WELCOME BACK to Sacramento!!

[InlineMBA]

I know what Adam is talking about. But, it's been going on for a while.

I remember, way back when, when Bob Goodliffe of the NJ Wolfpac got a letter from the NY Rangers, the parent organization of the Hartford Wolfpack, and was told to stop using the Wolfpack name.

Easiest way? Have the great people at ProJoy design a jersey for you, then incorporate some aspect of their design into your logo.

Lets see some creativity out there. My favorites - Oakville Coyotes ProJoy Jersey, and Team Dirt.

Steve Inge

[Hystyk28]

m still trying to figure out when their were Bulls in Chicago -

For your reading enjoyment...

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/804.html

[Drexel63]

I guess the "Chicago Meatpackers" wasn't as appealing in the marketing realm

[Jon Niola]

I guess the "Chicago Meatpackers" wasn't as appealing in the marketing realm

LOL that is an understatement.

[rhhof]

LOL - I love you Dave!!

[TULaw]

I think the PIHA could alot better when it comes to branding, after all they are trying to build a professional entertainment product and a huge part of that is branding. Even if the league isnt a true professional league yet with players getting paid and all atleast have the teams look the part and give the fans something they will want to wear. The league is missing out on a big opportunity to sell merchandise with these logos and names. There are only a couple of good ones in the league right now The Gladiators and Lunatics. but most of them are ugly and laughable, for example I wouldnt want to be caught dead wearing the Snipers or Pythons logo.

[Dave Garland]

TULaw,

You are entitled to your opinion of course; however, the logos you mentioned also sold a ton of merchandise in the St. Louis area with kids loving it. People all have their own tastes; however, branding means a consistent image that is replayed over and over that becomes associated with a product (in this case the team is the product). People always love and hate logos in all sports, but the key is entrenching it so it becomes as recognizable as say, Pepsi. We are on our way to do just that.

-D

[81design]

Just an FYI, I've seen the Marple Gladiators logo used in Moberly, MO (of all places) for the HS. So I'm assuming even that logo isn't original.

[GoRangrHky]

http://www.thepiha.com/pps-medias/5309.jpg
What the hell is this??

http://www.thepiha.com/pps-medias/4744.jpg
http://logotypes.designer.am/t/calgary_flames.png
At least that one's blatant


http://www.thepiha.com/pps-medias/5391.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/Admirals1980s.png
Ok, not AS obvious, but stealing the Milwaukee Admirals logo (and then putting a TM logo on it??) is fairly obvious as well

http://www.thepiha.com/pps-medias/5298.jpg
http://www.asimhl.com/HersheyBearsLogo.jpg
And while not blatant theft, let's come up with some original ideas, folks.

http://www.thepiha.com/pps-medias/thumbs/4977.gif
Um, I'd like to buy a vowel?

I'm sorry, but I still have a tough time taking the league seriously when I see teams out on the rink wearing logos that were OBVIOUSLY stolen from actual professional teams. $250 can get you someone to design a legitimate, unique logo for your team. Seems like it'd be worth the investment, but I guess not.

[BOMBERS11]

I think that if you look a little more into it you will find that there are more teams than you think with original uniform designs like my team the mass bombers, or a team like the philadelphia growl. even the Hartford Fire Ants

[GROWL]

I think the PIHA could alot better when it comes to branding, after all they are trying to build a professional entertainment product and a huge part of that is branding. Even if the league isnt a true professional league yet with players getting paid and all atleast have the teams look the part and give the fans something they will want to wear. The league is missing out on a big opportunity to sell merchandise with these logos and names. There are only a couple of good ones in the league right now The Gladiators and Lunatics. but most of them are ugly and laughable, for example I wouldnt want to be caught dead wearing the Snipers or Pythons logo.

The Lunatics Logo is not original. It is a stock joker with the hat taken off. I would agree that the Glads have one of the more original logos in the league. I can tell you that when we created the Growl logo that we worked with an artist to make sure that, while it does look like some other bulldogs in existance, it is absolutely unique.

[MBurke]

Most design firms will crank a pretty good logo out for you for a couple hundred bucks and you're involved in the whole process.

[TheSnake22]

lol i totally missed that with the "tornados"

the year before last, there was also the "borrorwed" phantoms logo which was replaced by the "borrowed" bandits logo, which has since been slightly modified.

[GoRangrHky]

I think that if you look a little more into it you will find that there are more teams than you think with original uniform designs like my team the mass bombers, or a team like the philadelphia growl. even the Hartford Fire Ants


WHAT?!?!?!?

It's a PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE. Every team should have their own original uniform design!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To say that most do is just... .:mad:

Hell, there's house league teams that can come up with their own. I would like to think that a professional team would be able to....

And wile the Mass Bombers logo may be original, it reminds me a whole lot of this team's http://www.essendonfc.com.au/main.asp
Just saying.

[MBurke]

WHAT?!?!?!?

It's a PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE. Every team should have their own original uniform design!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To say that most do is just... .:mad:

Hell, there's house league teams that can come up with their own. I would like to think that a professional team would be able to....

And wile the Mass Bombers logo may be original, it reminds me a whole lot of this team's http://www.essendonfc.com.au/main.asp
Just saying.

There are only so many ways to draw a bomber - using a B-2 is about the only choice, as anything WWII era is going to look hokey.

And not to be the grammar nazi of the board or anything, but 'tornados' is an acceptable spelling.

While most nouns ending in 'o' but preceded by a consonant end tack on an -es in their plural form, some allow both forms. For example:

mosquito, buffalo, halo...

[TULaw]

I do have to say that while the Growl's logo isnt the most original, it is one of the better looking ones. I have a big problem with the logos in the Gateway Division though, which ironically is one of the better run divisions and judging by their website they are getting some nice sponsorships, maybe they could put that money to use and have some good designs made for next season.

[GoRangrHky]

Just when I thought we were done.... http://www.jawzhockey.com/

[hockey4ba]

What about this
http://www.ncmustangs.net/
Thats identical to the Motor City Mustangs of the RHI
http://www.sportslogos.net/logo.php?lo=1448

[GROWL]

I do have to say that while the Growl's logo isnt the most original, it is one of the better looking ones. I have a big problem with the logos in the Gateway Division though, which ironically is one of the better run divisions and judging by their website they are getting some nice sponsorships, maybe they could put that money to use and have some good designs made for next season.

This is something that I hope the league begins to take a serious look at. While our Growl logo may not be 100% original, it is authentic and not ripped off of anyone. It does look very similiar to a lot of 'bulldog' logos you see out there, but when we created it we made it in illustrator on our own.

I completely agree with the posters that the time to create a custom logo is well worth it.

[NJRH10]

The Fire Ants logo is also a recycled logo. I can't remember which league it was but I'm sure Mr.Stio (rhhof) could tell you all about it.

[rhhof]

I love when people mention my name.....

it was from South Carolina - SC Fire Antz - MLRH 1998 - Loved the Mountain Dew patches!!!

[BourneRoller]

I couldn't agree more. If inline is to have any pro success they must portray and sell something unique. One of the main things that attracts me to inline is the culture. The team name/logo/uniform portrays that. and first impressions are important. I think in a lot of cases, any shots at selling pro inline has not properly sold as a unique product. It has either been a "mutant ice" game or a very amateur attempt.
To find our culture we need only look at the grassroots level (say NARCh) for influence. There are some great names and possible brands. For example: Lucky Charms, Empire, Honeybaked (I know that one is both ice and an inline club), Frenchies, Misconduct, Mayhem, Salsa, etc.. Some of the best names portray something very inline. The sort of "we've got skills but we don't need a lame name like The Grizzlies or The Scorpions to show it." It's like a new aged, relaxed but still competitive game. It has much more of the festival, i'm sorry to say "X hyphen treme" feel to it. By the way i'm not insisting you steal a kids team name, but looking there for influence couldn't hurt. Some of the jersey designs are great. Like nothing else in pro sports.
As well, if inline is to be seen as it's own sport, it musn't steal names from ice teams (or the RHI for that mater.) It must sell what it has that is different. People are more fickle than ever, they're bombarded with advertising all day, every day. You need to be unique and bring something new to the table.
To really make a go at it, a pro league must brand very well. That means EVERY team. Frankly, half of the PIHA have terrible names and logos. Very bad. They need to come out with sharp jerseys, unique logos that you want on your t-shirt or hat and a name you want to argue for over the water cooler.

[born2runPROgm]

The better things get in the PIHA the harsher the critics get.

You do realize that almost everyone who works in PIHA are volunteers? Team web designers, coaches, gm's, statisticians, penalty box attendants... etc...People don't get paid. The PIHA Built something amazing from absolutely nothing and PIHA isn't about the money (unlike many other things in inline hockey). Unfortunately most teams don't have the time or money (yet) to go out and spend money on unique logo concepts, it's just not in the budget. Oh, and imo,thanks to ACE the last few years all of PIHA's teams have looked tremendous!

Just thought I'd add in my 2 cents. I don't think it's right to so strictly crtitique those who give there time and money to the sport for nothing.

Look at past pro leagues (and semi-pro leagues)... you'll see in the infantile years of the nhl and wha, many logos and names were recycled and used from other leagues. (ex. the old Pittsburgh Pirates were and pro ice hockey team.)
__________________

[born2runPROgm]

ps.. Jake, were not supposed to bring up the Desperados logo! ;)

[RustyPipes27]

Well if the league wants to be a true professional league, then the excuse that most of the employees are volunteers can't be used.

[81design]

I'd like to help! I think that I could bring something to the table for PIHA for minimal compensation, as opposed to an agency. Take a look at some of the things I've done recently:

http://hockeyjerseys.brandonmorton.com/

Keep in mind that some of the work is conceptual at this point. I can provide higher resolution images to show detail if interested, some of the images don't show the detail in their current scale/format. (Yes I know the Amish jersey is a knock off of the MLS Columbus logo) Push me along to the right people and I'd be more than happy to contribute. Like all of you, I love the game of inline hockey, and to see it grow would be great.

Brandon

[GoRangrHky]

Yeah, the fact that it's mostly volunteers is a pretty lame excuse why you can't have an original logo. Shouldn't that be something you budget for when you start up a team? It's the 21st century here, there has to be SOMEONE you know that can come up with something resembling a logo for only a few bucks. I've seen house league teams with better designs than some of these. You're really comparing the 1925 Pittsburgh Pirates to teams that are coming out now?? It was a common practice in those days to have the same name for multiple teams (see the New York Giants), but I have not seen that done anywhere in any league in close to 70 years. And I'm pretty sure there's a reason for that...

[born2runPROgm]

Your right.... I'm wrong. What the heck was I thinking! :rolleyes:

I'm going to send an email to piha and tell him to threaten to cut all volunteers salary's....

[BourneRoller]

Brandons example of the groomsmen is terrific. Just what I would look for.

And I think the the age old question "what makes a pro league, getting paid or the level of play?" is faulty. It requires both. While I appreciate what the PIHA has done, it is not (in my humble opinion) pro. Cool and a step in the right direction, yes. Pro? No.

[GoRangrHky]

Your right.... I'm wrong. What the heck was I thinking! :rolleyes:

I'm going to send an email to piha and tell him to threaten to cut all volunteers salary's....

Isn't it the individual teams that come up with the names, logos, uniforms, etc., not the league? Maybe before you put a team into the league, you should consider stuff like, I dunno, having a logo! I'm surpised their haven't been cease and desist letters to all of these teams yet.

[Center_ice]

Someone please call Charlie and tell him to change the name of the league so that ranger rick and bourne for nothing can relax.

The ignorance in this sport still amazes me.

Mr. O'Neil (the new CEO of MLRH) how many governing bodies does this sport have?

[BourneRoller]

Wow. Touchy. Like one big warm fuzzy creepy family. I don't think I was out of line or ignorant, just would like to see the sport progress. I think we can all agree it is underachieving, nothing against the current attempts. Have fun, take a shower, get a message and get back to being the best gosh darn spanky centreman you can be.

Love
Bourne-for-nothing-but-relaxed-as-can-be

[GoRangrHky]

How was what I posted ignorant? Care to explain?

[GROWL]

Here is what is troubling for most of us. PRO rollerhockey was tried and failed with the RHI. MLRH attempted several years of their version and then faltered. Building from the top down, just does not work. It has been proven that there is not a big enough market for an RHI yet.

Want to know why the PIHA supporters are so defensive about this? Because we are building a pro league (that works for the current market). We began at the very bottom, while the old MLRH was flourishing and everyone doubted PIHA. The difference was that we started small and have continued to take baby steps. No one claims that PIHA is what the RHI tried to be or even what the new MLRH wants to be. But we will claim that we are legit and will continue to grow stronger a little bit every year.

So to the people who want to PIHA bash, in what is a clear attempt to push the new MLRH product, remember the lesson taught in the 3 Little Pigs. While we slowly keep building our product on a solid foundation, jump into your house of sticks and start casting your insults because you think you're further along or closer to your goal.

A league is about more then paying players and playing in big venues. It's about relationships with trust worthy people, which we are building. Maybe MLRH has found someone to invest money into playing in big venues, paying players, but how long is it going to last? A year or two, maybe 3 or 4 like RHI? Eventually it will dry up and you'll be stuck with the foundation you've built on, which is nothing more then the outside money you've based everything on.

Good luck to the MLRH, because I'd love to see the sport advance where these people think they are going. Until you've accomplished something don't bash our PROfesionalism for builing our league one brick at a time. There my friends is where you can find the true definition of what makes a PRO league. The PIHA also didn't grow by slandering MLRH, XIHL, Speed Hockey and in fact we tried to work with all of these groups at one time or another. I suspect that the people talking here are not voices of the MLRH league, but either way Huff and Puff, but you're not blowing down our house.

[growl89]

3 little pigs.. nice touch

[GoRangrHky]

So that means that PIHA can do whatever they feel like and be exempt from criticism? I have little (actually, nothing) to do with MLRH, or PIHA for that matter. I am one of the people that this league is supposed to be appealing to. The career roller hockey player who might want to see it played at a higher level. Why should I not be entitled to voice my opinion on what I feel is something that irks me as a potential and former customer? If I were operating a league at ANY level, I would take the response of the people as something I could build off of. I would not go back and insult the people that I would want to support my league.

We are nto here trying to 'blow down' anyone's house. From what it seems, we are trying to help you by pointing out flaws in your system, flaws that obviously seem to be accepted by the teams and the league for whatever reason. All we said was that there shoud be some more originality in the logos, and that many of them were obviously stolen (which they were). Trying to defend them by essentially saying that they couldn't spend the fifty bucks and come up with something better is pretty lame.

But even more lame is allowing a player from that league to go and verbally abuse someone that otherwise may have been a customer on a public message board. Center_ice, whoever that may be, has now made me forever an opponent of what this leage is trying to accomplish. And in my conversations with others, I will say just that. Whatever level of 'professionalism' this league may be, it is doing itself a disservice by not only condoning, but promoting this kind of activity from it's members.

PIHA may one day rise to the top of the inline hockey world, but if it gets there, it will not be from any of my support.

[MBurke]

I don't think Growl's response was directed at you, AJ. He agreed with you earlier in the thread :)

[GROWL]

I apologize for not pointing my finger specifically at what bothered me in this thread. My point had nothing to do with the logos and things. As Burke said, I completely agreed with that point.

I've been overwhelmed with comments, just about everywhere I go these days, about the new MLRH . The comments and debate over what is and isnt pro, i guess finally set me off.

To finish, I was verbally abusing no one. You can go back in the archives and read my thoughts on naming people on this site. Nothing bothers me more then people who don't say who they are and for that matter... I believe the same can be said about who I would be verbally abusing. If I was speciafically calling someone out, I would have been bold enough to call them out. I was making a brash, but giving my opinion on the comments about the validity of the PROfessionalism of our league.

We are all on here to have fun and to speak openly about bettering our sport. I read through the recent posts and found it odd that the same people who were pumping up MLRH, seemed to be the same people questioning the professionalism of PIHA. If your saying that I was verbally abusing anyone, then I say you reread what I wrote and find where I abused anyone. I was defending the PIHA and that is that.

On a side note, i'd love to know exactly who everyone is that is posting.

[ACCCT2]

I couldn't resist --

Just to make a point that apparently needs to be made -- from the Longman Dictionary of American English:

professional (1) /adj: 1 doing a job, sport, or activity for money: a professional baseball player 2 professional sports are played by people who are paid

professional (2) /n: someone who earns money by doing a job, sport, or activity that otherpeople do just for enjoyment -- compare AMATEUR

professionalism / [U] : the skill and high standards of behavior expected of a PROFESSIONAL person

***

Why certain people go on and on about this is absolutely absurd. I totally agree with "GoRangrHky" on his being offended for expressing a thoroughly valid point of view: let's say that whatever league (PIHA, MLRH, WHATEVER) makes it (financialy/media-wise) "BIG-TIME" one day -- do you really think that any revenue generated from collateral/merchandising bearing the 'pirated' logos of past teams wouldn't be held hostage to copyright/licensing/royalty issues by at least the artists and owners directly involved with the commission and creation of said logos...???

From my rather experienced point of view, NO major advertiser/sponsor/marketer is going touch anything that isn't (first) uniquely original and (second) legally and thoroughly vetted for copyright ownership and licensing rights. "Pirating" logos is both lame and illegal and NO major advertiser/sponsor/marketer will go anywhere near an organization or league that's rampant with a basic disrespect and disregard for basic copyright law -- do you really think they'd tust their "wealth-marque" with anyone who would so violate the copyright holder's rights...??? NO WAY. PERIOD.

Excuse-making and excusing-away this basic fact for anyone claiming to be a "high standards/professional" league certainly belies the so-called "validity of the PROfessionalism" of any league. Again, I harken back to one of my earlier posts -- do you really think that sharp and savvy potential advertisers, sponsors and marketers who keep-up on the state of everything 'sport' don't monitor boards and forums like these...??? For someone who claims to be "building" the game, I can't believe what an incredible disservice, as well as the real damage you do to the game's potential by "verbally abusing" and unfairly 'ripping' those who are simply giving sound feedback and very (legally) accurate advice...

PLEASE -- STOP using "professional" or "professionalism" when it clearly and literally doesn't apply...

[Wingman]

umm... I think when people are saying "professional" inline hockey, they're talking about "pro level" inline hockey. Not as much of whether the players are getting paid or not, but the talent level of the teams.

[ACCCT2]

NO major advertiser, sponsor or marketer will EVER buy that definition. To them, "pro level" means players are getting paid. Period. "Talent" isn't "pro talent" until it's paid. Period. Ask any of the millions of so-called "pro level" players who can't cut the "money" pressure of being a "money player" and wash-out of "pro" sports just as quickly as they arrived...

[imasieve30]

Alright enough of this, seriously.

ACCCT2,

The word "Professional" can be used to describe "someone who is competent or skilled in a particular activity". Enough with the marketing mumbo jumbo. We get it. You make good points but you sound like a broken record. Make that a "broken record". And a very hard to comprehend one at that.

GoRangrHky,

You're on a public message board. This is where EVERYONE gets to come and express their opinions. Players, fans, kids, parents, supporters and non-supporters. Perhaps this thread should have been moved to the "PIHA only" section. Try to grow a thicker skin. After all being anonymous on here takes very little effort and people who take things on a message board at face value are foolish. Plus I don't like you cause your're a Rangers fan. :p


The original point of this post was to bring attention to the fact that some of the leagues logos are copied directly from other sports teams, whether current or defunct. I think it is good advice that all teams take a look at their logos and do what is necessary to guarantee that there is no copy-write infringement. This can be done going forward. There is not much that can be done about the past. That is it people. Stop beating a dead horse.


-Joe

[MBurke]

Horse officially dead and beaten. I think just about every valid point possible has been made.

Lock time!