If there were to be a new "PRO" League

[Inline_Burl]

Visit www.freewebs.com/rhi07

I cant put my excel spread sheet on here

[GROWL]

Uh maybe I am completely in the dark... but what do these numbers represent?

and where is the Giant Center in Philadelphia?

[MBurke]

Anthony,

I believe you're looking at the following columns:

Total Attendance (all time)
# Games Hosted (home games)
Average Attendance/game

I think he probably just guessed at some of the area names, since the capacity numbers look close to the NHL/AHL rinks in the area.

[Leaferguy]

and where is the Giant Center in Philadelphia?
I had no idea what it was, either.

http://www.hersheypa.com/events/giant_center/index.asp

Apparently, it's in Hershey and it's where the Bears play, meaning I don't know if I could go see a game there anyway :p :D

[TULaw]

How far is Hershey from Philidelphia? I get the impression it is too far to be considered the Philidelphia market. As far as Denver, Budweiser Events Center is in Loveland which isnt considered part of the Denver metro area. Hardly anyone from Denver would go out there for a game. There are good venues located in the Denver area though; The Broomfield Event Center which is of similar size to Budwiser Events Center and is home to the Rocky Mountain Rage. You also have Magness Arena located on the campus of the University of Denver which also seats more then 5,000.

If I had the money to start a new RHI I would start with 6 team, all located in California.

Anahiem
Los Angeles
San Deigo
Sacramento
Oakland
San Jose

California is a great Inline Hockey state, and a small league like that would insure low travel costs, If players were traded they wouldnt have to go too far. They league would play in the summer. I am PIHA, NARCh and MLRH players in addition to some CHL and ECHL players wouldnt mind spending summers in California. From those original 6 expansion would be in the west coast and slowly move to the rest of the country. I could see smart owners partnering up with NLL, CHL, ECHL teams or Colleges and Universities to build smaller venues in the 5,000 seat range where the teams can control revenue and make larger profits.

[TheSnake22]

i'm guessing you're not aware that there was an attempt to start up a pro league based in california about 2 or 3 years ago that failed and lasted only one season, the IHA. It had a lot of the best players and actually paid them, but couldn't make a budget that worked. I don't know much more about it because it wasn't around that long... and flying players to california in the summer sounds a lot like pro beach hockey. there was talk of PIHA doing something like that last summer, flying a bunch of players out to colorado for a few weeks to film a "season" that would be made for tv purposes. didn't happen for whatever reason...

[Leaferguy]

How far is Hershey from Philidelphia? I get the impression it is too far to be considered the Philidelphia market.
I would agree with that. I would say a good 1.5-2 hours, depending upon how fast you drive :D

[missionhockey19]

well the problem with the IHA was the league first started in a local rink (gretzky's irvine, aka california bla ba bla aka 949 something) then after one year they jumped from having a solid crowd of about 500 makign the arena looked pack to a 5000 person arena, if a pro league was to start, id say start the league in local rinks, drawing fans from all over and try to build some type of fan base, take as long as it takes until you feel you have the fan base to move into a building that seats 3000 to 5000 people and go from there...

[Superstar9]

Isnt that what PIHA has been doing for like 6 years now? I mean I dont get it, why start with a ''New'' pro league a re-do the steps and building process that has already been done with PIHA? Theres already a perfectly good league out there thats making progress, why even think about another league at this point? If I remember correctly, most of us were happy to see the states finally have only ONE league.

[born2runPROgm]

here here!

[TheSnake22]

since no one can keep topics all in one thread and people insist on creating stupid threads about nothing...

the evolution that i envision would be that as PIHA grows with time, eventually the league will be able to extract the elite players from the league and create a small "Super League" of say 4-8 teams made up of the games best talent. The league would probably run best if the teams were operated by the league in the same way MLS operates it's teams, so that they would remain balanced and competitive. PIHA wont be able to transition from nationwide adult league to semi-pro league on the huge scale it is growing into. I mean if you have 60 teams with 10 players, well there aren't 600 inline hockey players in the country that are good enough to get paid, or for that matter, that people would pay to watch. But if you take the cream of the crop and create a truly elite product, you can market it and sell it and eventually grow it with time... inline hockey still isn't ready for that because the money isn't there, but as PIHA gets bigger and stronger, it will come...

[MBurke]

Right on - I'm in total agreement, Jake.

[kicksave60]

you market that right now with something similar to the "AND 1 " tour as seen ESPN. The elite travel to major cities and play teams of the same talent. Showcase the talents of the stars of inline hockey. Let the sport be "known" and fans will follow.

[RichardGraham]

Visit www.freewebs.com/rhi07

I cant put my excel spread sheet on here

Hi,

Do you know where this information came from? It looks pretty interesting. Thanks.

[Inline_Burl]

The info I got was from all the teams attendance in the RHI.
Then I took the top 8-10 teams witht he best attendance.

[RichardGraham]

The info I got was from all the teams attendance in the RHI.
Then I took the top 8-10 teams witht he best attendance.

One problem is that most teams inflated their attendance. Several of us writers covering the sport called the RHI on it, but not too hard -- we wanted the league to succeed. But I remember Paul McLeod of the L.A. Times getting pretty ticked off about it. lol.

[rhhof]

This is quite interesting - as much as i agree with some of the things we need to do with our sport this is a bad model!!!

As Richard said some of these numbers are inflated!! Many times did Anaheim draw close to 10000, alot of times they didnt get over 4000 - AS far as some other teams....Long Island maybe broke 3000 a couple of times....NJ, the first three years had the numbers go from 4500-5500 all the way down to 1000-2000 in '96 and '97 - Most of the bottom teams on the list are accurate

Vancouver had the top sales and sold a lot of apparel and made themselves the only real viable team and they sold at a pretty good price in 1996 for over $500,000 if im not mistaken....

If we are to make a new league it must spawn off of PIHA - most of these markets now see the true sport - It must be built into bigger arenas but we need to find a median first - bringing new people to the sport and having to spend money on a ticket and having to STAND at a rink is a bad sale...If they come to a nice arena with great seating and nice snack bars/good concession and maybe beer...apparel stands, mascots....it can get bigger!!!

Some of the teams have the ideas - it will take a little time - I thought in 2003 PIHA would be huge in 5 years - here we are just 4 down the road and not only is it the KING, but it will get even bigger next year again!!

Charley has been trying to take steps to create something bigger - he will pick the time and place....having the right people, which we have in the league-----it will work, all in due time!!

[born2runPROgm]

rhhof makes good points....

I lived in San Jose when the Rhinos were in the RHI and although they had some of the better attendance in the league, from a financial standpoint it wasn't nearly good enough....

I believe the average was around 4-5k per game with the most fans coming the night they raised there championship banner (7,500 i think)

It was a lot of fun.... I remember how i'd always see at least 3-4 sharks at the games as well.

[GoRangrHky]

Well, let's take a look at that Long Island one you have set up. The Long Beach Convention and Entertainment Center holds 11,200 for hockey, so I'm sure that's what you're speaking of. It's also about 2,800 miles from Long Island. It is in Long Beach, CALIFORNIA, which is quite a trip from Long Beach, NY.

However, that would answer your question on where to put the LA team.

[TheSnake22]

ya RHHOF, that's pretty much everything that i said...

there's another thread right next to this one with more information on the same general subject, "is there money in PIHA?" This guy doesn't have a "model" or a plan or even an idea just numbers that mean nothing...

[TULaw]

ya RHHOF, that's pretty much everything that i said...

there's another thread right next to this one with more information on the same general subject, "is there money in PIHA?" This guy doesn't have a "model" or a plan or even an idea just numbers that mean nothing...

One problem with the PIHA right now is the buildings, for example i attended a PIHA game in Denver at the Bladium between Westminister and Fort Collins and I had to stand the entire time. While the Bladium is a great facility it wasnt built with the spectator in mind. I hear the Tour arena in Colorado Springs is pretty nice, seats 250. I think to take the PIHA to the next level they need to have facilities built with the spectator in mind, where they could seat 500-1,000 spectators depending on the market. While the game right now is a professional product as far as the players and the product on the floor it could use some work as far as presentation but again like everyone has said on here that takes time.

[TheSnake22]

see but that's the problem, the game really isn't yet a professional product as a whole so you can't expect it to be marketable as one. Don't get me wrong there are tons of great players in the league, many of them considered some of the best in the world. But then there are players who are nowhere near the professional level that are in the league, not because teams are dumb and pick bad players, but because the league just isn't established enough yet and teams are forced to take the best available players to fill their roster. As the league develops, you will be able to take these elite players and concentrate the talent on a few teams to make a product that will truly be a "Professional" product.

Ya it might be nice to have comfy seats to watch the game but the product on the floor is much more important that the venues we're playing in. Some rinks are nicer than others, but it costs a ton of money to build even a crappy rink... even suggesting the idea of building rinks is years ahead of its time... this isn't a movie, just because you build it doesn't mean they will come lol...

[TULaw]

see but that's the problem, the game really isn't yet a professional product as a whole so you can't expect it to be marketable as one. Don't get me wrong there are tons of great players in the league, many of them considered some of the best in the world. But then there are players who are nowhere near the professional level that are in the league, not because teams are dumb and pick bad players, but because the league just isn't established enough yet and teams are forced to take the best available players to fill their roster. As the league develops, you will be able to take these elite players and concentrate the talent on a few teams to make a product that will truly be a "Professional" product.

Ya it might be nice to have comfy seats to watch the game but the product on the floor is much more important that the venues we're playing in. Some rinks are nicer than others, but it costs a ton of money to build even a crappy rink... even suggesting the idea of building rinks is years ahead of its time... this isn't a movie, just because you build it doesn't mean they will come lol...


Just a question, do you think the sport looses some of its best players to Ice Hockey where there are more oportunities? College scholarships, money etc.

[TheSnake22]

sure... bobby ryan and gabe gauthier come to mind as recent young players who have inline in their background, but at no time did anyone thing they would pass up playing professional ice hockey to play inline...

if your argument is that by developing the pro game you'll get more people to stay with inline hockey... well consider that 1) it is very unlikely that inline hockey will ever surpass ice hockey, at least not in the foreseeable future. there will always be better opportunities to play ice hockey. even if players were getting scholarships and getting paid in a pro league, there would still be more scholarships and more money in ice hockey. just like ice hockey isn't about to pass football, baseball or basketball, inline isn't going pass ice. 2) the sport would benefit more from cooperating with and embracing ice hockey than competing against it. that's pretty much the reason why summer tournament series have been the most successful form of competitive inline in recent years.

there is still plenty of room for inline to be successful, but right now the sport needs more growth in the youth age groups way more than it needs growth at the professional ranks. ya it's nice for the kids to have something to look up at, but youth soccer has been successful in this country for decades without a pro league to look up to, and even now when the mls still sucks... we need to reintroduce the sport to the youth of america by giving them chances to play it not just watch it. what good is being able to watch the local pro team if there aren't any good youth programs for them to gravitate to and become players...

when the youth age groups grow large enough, then the high school age groups will grow, and then the college age groups, and then eventually the adult levels. but if the youngest age groups decline like many people seem to think they currently are, then the structure of the sport will collapse... how do we grow the sport among the youth players? some people say give them adult players to watch and emulate, i say give them a pair of skates and somewhere to play and you'll get better results...

[alex]

[QUOTE=TheSnake22;34792]...there will always be better opportunities to play ice hockey. even if players were getting scholarships and getting paid in a pro league, there would still be more scholarships and more money in ice hockey. just like ice hockey isn't about to pass football, baseball or basketball, inline isn't going pass ice.QUOTE]


I agree this is true, but I think you'd see some top roller players pass up an ice career in favor of roller if there was money there period. What I mean is, I don't think roller has to be paying the same salaries as the NHL to draw future Bobby Ryans or Gabe Gauthiers. If a kid can make a good living playing pro roller hockey in the future, it doesn't have to be millions, just a good paying job playing pro roller hockey, I think you'll draw some of that talent. I say this from talking to so many local kids out here in AZ that are AAA roller and AAA ice players. The vast majority of them enjoy playing roller more, for different reasons, most of them love roller but have to give it up to focus on ice hockey since there's a chance to make a living off it. Not many kids realistically think they're going to the NHL to make millions, they pursue ice hockey because they can live off it even playing semi-pro. I'm not saying everyone loves roller more than ice but there's enough kids out there, it seems to me, that enjoy playing roller more and would do it if they could at least make a decent wage off it.

[TheSnake22]

you have to understand that we're not close to anyone making a decent living playing inline hockey... Yes it would be nice, no it's not about to happen any time in the immediate future... the problem isn't even about having enough players who want to play inline, it's about the quality of the players. Ice hockey players are better today than they were 10 years ago. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc... this comes through increased competition. As the competition in inline hockey gets better, the players will get better, and the product of inline hockey will get better. Any maybe then we'll be at a point where there is an elite league that can attract a decent amount of fans. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good and great inline hockey players, but the best level of inline obviously doesn't compare to the best level of ice hockey, and this is true as you go down the line... Hopefully as the game grows at the youth levels, the coaching gets better, and you get more people playing the game, then the competition level will rise and the game will become stronger...

[alex]

you have to understand that we're not close to anyone making a decent living playing inline hockey... Yes it would be nice, no it's not about to happen any time in the immediate future... the problem isn't even about having enough players who want to play inline, it's about the quality of the players. Ice hockey players are better today than they were 10 years ago. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc... this comes through increased competition. As the competition in inline hockey gets better, the players will get better, and the product of inline hockey will get better. Any maybe then we'll be at a point where there is an elite league that can attract a decent amount of fans. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good and great inline hockey players, but the best level of inline obviously doesn't compare to the best level of ice hockey, and this is true as you go down the line... Hopefully as the game grows at the youth levels, the coaching gets better, and you get more people playing the game, then the competition level will rise and the game will become stronger...


I understand it's not about to happen anytime soon. I'm just saying roller hockey doesn't have to pay millions to attract ice/roller AAA talent to stay in roller. So, that could come sooner rather than later.
And as far as the best level of ice hockey being better than best level of roller, that's what happens when guys can dedicate themselves every day to playing ice hockey since that's what is paying their bills. Once guys can pay the bills playing pro roller, the skill level will increase.

[TheSnake22]

no of course it doesn't have to pay millions... but it is not coming sooner rather than later, which i guess is obviously relative... best case scenario is that some elite players could maybe make a few grand a year from inline hockey right now from compensation from PIHA owners or Pro series earnings if they're very lucky. this does not include endorsements. 5 years from now, maybe there could be a small elite league with a decent amount of players maybe making a few grand. 10 years from now maybe they could climb up to 10 grand or so if the league is successful... you see that we're not in the range of "paying the bills" unless you want to be single and living in your vehicle or sharing a flat with 5 other guys... these are all estimates, it's hard to predict the future, but either way you're approach is backwards. you can't create a market for something that isn't marketable... once the skill level increases, and there is a real audience, maybe guys can pay the bills playing roller hockey...

what i'm trying to say is that the demand has to exist before the supply. you cannot create an artificial demand for a product and sustain a constant level of revenue. eventually it will collapse.

bottom line, patience and hard work and anything can happen. honestly, most people would say that with that approach, PIHA is ahead of schedule, so maybe it can happen sooner that i think. but if you try to take the easiest approach, throwing money around and hoping it will attract players and fans, the league will fail.

[missionhockey19]

ya, i mean what the hell, as if dominoes and darts were bad enough, but wheni can read in the newspaper and online that a 13 year old won the national text messaging championships over a 21 year old in newyork i believe, and yet i cant read about any roller hockey at all, you know its getting bad...