Divisioning - Lindenwood - Survey

[playthegames]

A couple of questions for everyone:

1) What if the NCRHA created a true D1 that teams had to choose to play in? They could have some requirements for those teams to meet (matching jerseys/helmets/pants, coaches required, etc) but the idea being that it was a place for the teams that thought they could sustain one of the top programs in the country year in and year out? Would teams such as Eastern Mich, MSU, Towson, NC State, UCF, USF, UMSL, Neumann, Nevada, and others that have enjoyed success over the years want to join in a Division like this? or would they all choose to stay in a lower division and leave Lindenwood in a D1 by themselves?

For this discussion figure there would be a D1 that you had to choose to play in, and a D2 with greater than 18k and a D3 with less than 18k. Also still a division for the Community Colleges.

2) Are there any D1 teams that are getting frustrated enough with going to Nationals and playing for 2nd place that they might just stop going and turn down bids? Has anyone gotten to the point just competing in their regions is enough?

[GoRangrHky]

They tried this a few years ago, called CRHL Premier. It didn't really work for a number of reasons. I don't think CRH in general is ready for that again.

And you're going to turn down a trip to nationals because you KNOW you're going to lose? Why bother even playing the games then. Why don't we all drop like $7000 a team, give Lindenwood a trophy, and go out drinking the whole time?? Not going is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I can tell you there are PLENTY of teams in this country right now that feel they can show up and take home that trophy. All it takes is 1 win by someone in that bracket. I'm sure Michigan State would like to give it another crack. I'm sure UCF would like another chance, too. A matchup of URI-UC Irvine-Michigan St. would be tough, and might actually lead to one of them knocking them out. Never know unless you play the games...

[roy94]

Why is it a fairly large portion of those who post on this board feel that Lindenwood should just be given the D1 national championship?

Lindenwood has proven that they are the class of the NCRHA for the last 5 years. No one can deny that, nor should they try. Point being they had to EARN those victories. I didnt see last years final, so I wont reference it but the two previous to last years were very good hockey games. In Anaheim Penn State was down 4-3 after 2. I realize Lindenwood took control of the game in the third, but that had more to do with the lack of depth (I think PSU played 6 players) and conditioning on PSU's part. The next year Michigan State played a close semi-final game and Central Florida a close finals game against Lindenwood. Yes, Lindenwood won. Thats what championship caliber teams do. They win when it counts.

That said, I can assure you that not a single player on any of those teams felt that they couldnt beat Lindenwood on that day. One of Lindenwoods great strengths is that 90% of the teams they play dont believe they can be beat. Inevitably, eventually they will lose. It might not be this year, next year or for 5 more but it will happen. When they are beaten it wont be from the 90% who are willing to concede defeat before they even step on the rink. It'll be the 10% , the Towson's, Florida's, Michigan State's, Eastern Michigan's, the Neumans's and others who actually enjoy playing top competition even if it means losing. They play because its a challenge not in spite of that.

Basically what I'm getting at is there is no way in hell I would ever want to go to D2 just to avoid Lindenwood. On behalf of Towson University's Roller Hockey Club I assure you we would stay in D1.


Last I checked the point of competitive athletics was to compete.

[missionhockey19]

i agree somewhat with the part of letting the teams decide whether they feel they are skilled enough to compete at the D-1 level play D-1 and make it more of a skilled divison rather than by size...however maybe more like the regional directors decide if they can compete, i played d-1 the year the premier league was created, i never did get to see it because i believe it was the weekend before d-1 nationals were...what were the issues with having the premier league if anyone knows?

now once again this is just an idea, a discussion, for those that disagree, dont sit here and write about how pathetic the idea was, if you disagree, dont bash the idea beacuse no one will ever want to come up with ideas on possibly making the league better...

[James Lambert]

Lindenwood has two players from New York, three from California, two from Florida, one from Michigan, etc.

When schools other than Lindenwood are able to recruit and stack their rosters with elite players from a thousand miles away, then we'll have competitive balance.

Until then, the deck is stacked against everyone else.

Just calling a spade a spade.

[DGlass]

Lindenwood is very fortunate to be in the situation they are in. Persoanlly, I think every player on every team should want their school to support their roller hockey club in a similar manner.

The problem with Premier was that it tried to be too big, too soon. The NCRHA should come up with guidelines (based on organization, talent, comittment, etc.) to ensure that the teams in DI are representing the sport and their schools in the best possible light.

[alex]

Why is it a fairly large portion of those who post on this board feel that Lindenwood should just be given the D1 national championship?

Lindenwood has proven that they are the class of the NCRHA for the last 5 years. No one can deny that, nor should they try. Point being they had to EARN those victories. I didnt see last years final, so I wont reference it but the two previous to last years were very good hockey games. In Anaheim Penn State was down 4-3 after 2. I realize Lindenwood took control of the game in the third, but that had more to do with the lack of depth (I think PSU played 6 players) and conditioning on PSU's part. The next year Michigan State played a close semi-final game and Central Florida a close finals game against Lindenwood. Yes, Lindenwood won. Thats what championship caliber teams do. They win when it counts.

That said, I can assure you that not a single player on any of those teams felt that they couldnt beat Lindenwood on that day. One of Lindenwoods great strengths is that 90% of the teams they play dont believe they can be beat. Inevitably, eventually they will lose. It might not be this year, next year or for 5 more but it will happen. When they are beaten it wont be from the 90% who are willing to concede defeat before they even step on the rink. It'll be the 10% , the Towson's, Florida's, Michigan State's, Eastern Michigan's, the Neumans's and others who actually enjoy playing top competition even if it means losing. They play because its a challenge not in spite of that.

Basically what I'm getting at is there is no way in hell I would ever want to go to D2 just to avoid Lindenwood. On behalf of Towson University's Roller Hockey Club I assure you we would stay in D1.


Last I checked the point of competitive athletics was to compete.

Amen brother, Amen.

[sduffy25]

I think aligning the divisions by talent is better from a marketing standpoint too. When you think of any other college sport, the best teams with the best players are in Division I. These programs have been established for decades, but they had to start somewhere.

On the other hand, as someone pointed out, the unpredictable fluctuation in talent makes this realignment tough to sell. The days where kids pick colleges based on roller hockey may just be starting. In major college sports - football, basketball, hockey, etc. - the best teams/schools are such because they have a reputation and attract the best players year after year, and can offer them scholarships (and in football and basketball especially, a future in the pros). Lindenwood is the first roller hockey team to take this type of approach - regardless of whether it evolved out of success or was a planned effort. The sport of roller hockey is just a baby compared to all these other major sports. Hopefully one day, with a growing population of young players and passionate leaders like the ones we have today, roller hockey will eventually catch up. For now, it's growing pains. And for everyone, myself included, who wishes we could flip a switch and make roller hockey parallel ice hockey or football in status, we have to realize that it's just not there yet. The sport, especially at the college level, is going to take it's lumps for years to come. I think our league leaders realize what some players often don't - we have to make the best with what we have right now. We can't go bending rules or changing things every year to try and please everyone. It has to evolve on it's own.

[Respek]

Wow, thats all i can say about this thread. I keep reading all this BS thats teams should go down to D2 to avoid Lindenwood. Honestly I cant believe you wasted your time posting this BS. Ill be honest and say Yes Lindenwood is above any other team in the country, but they are beatable. The thing about sports is that anyone can beat anyone on any given day. Your team is a bunch of cowards if you move down because you feel like your playing for second place. I would feel better losing to a team like Lindenwood in the division my team belongs in rather then winning in a division we shouldnt be in. Once Lindenwood gets beat this year what are you going to say then? Should Lindenwood move down because they lost? There ae so many elite programs out there and i know of a few teams that are getting talented kids because of their roller hockey programs. Mark my words the Lindenwood era will be over soon enough.

If your team is scared to play Lindenwood because you know your going to lose then you know what your not an athlete. However, you have to respect the Lindenwood program. The players and coaches are very respectable and congrats on everything they have done the last few years.

[MBurke]

The problem isn't so much that it's 'too soon' to do it - Premier was 5 years ago already.


All it would take to do it now is for all of the high-caliber organized teams to start pressuring their respective regions and NCRHA on a whole - don't just complain that you want more, talk to other teams, put plans together and bring it to your directors as a unified proposal that teams will back up.

As long as there are no plans in place and no real incentive for the good DII schools to move up (since they have plenty of good competition in DII from the other schools - vicious cycle kind of thing), I don't think we'll advance very far since our divisions really mean nothing. Many of the big names in DI could be playing DII by rights.

[STLhockey92]

who will beat them? just for a laugh id like to hear the responses.

[ISFN]

Laugh at the 2 games that they barley beat St.Charles, those were funny, took a bunch of recruits and out of town players(Some supposablely the best in the world) just to beat a Community College:eek:, LU will be beat this year.

[missionhockey19]

yah st charles, a DIII team... ;)

[warwick]

to those that want to drop out of d1 to avoid lindenwood and play "down" in d2. what happens when u can't beat the neumann's and the umsl's then what will u do.

[STLhockey92]

i think its hysterical how little some of you know about hockey...

[alex]

i think its hysterical how little some of you know about hockey...

It shows how little someone knows about hockey because they think Lindenwood is going to get beat?

You just said on another thread, "They (SCCC) probably have the best chance of anyone in beating LU and I think they will be the one to end the streak."

That was shortly after you said they wouldn't be beaten anytime this decade. So, which one is it?

[STLhockey92]

please direct me to the thread where i ever said SCCC would beat lindenwood? i think your fabricating things now.

[alex]

please direct me to the thread where i ever said SCCC would beat lindenwood? i think your fabricating things now.

Yeah, that was STLHockey not STLHockey92. Big mistake, I know.

Anyway, your notion that people on this board know little about hockey because they think Lindenwood can be beat, only goes to show your own shortsightedness. You're obviously too infatuated with the whole Lindenwood program to believe that team is anything less than perfect. No team is perfect and unbeatable. They've nearly been beaten by a DIII team twice this season. Last two seasons, they've beat Michigan State by 2 at Nationals. The Penn State final 3 years ago was a 1 goal game heading into the 3rd period. Lindenwood is obviously the college roller hockey powerhouse, but you're a fool to think they're unbeatable.

[RustyPipes27]

Click, Clack.

[DGlass]

Isn't that for Under Armor's football cleats?

This is hockey.


But I digress. At no point has any team, or individual, said they would ACTUALLY turn down a bid to Nationals to avoid Lindenwood. Nor did anyone say they would stay out of DI in order to avoid LU. It was only suggested as a 'what if' question.

A better question, and one I would like answered, is why schools such as Lindenwood and Towson choose to go against the NCRHA's current structure and play in DI rather DII, where they belong.

Similarly, I questioned Temple as to why they play DII when they should be in DI. They incorrectly stated that they were not talented enough to play DI.

I readily admit my guilt in allowing Temple to play DII, rather DI. I also, however, believe that Temple would be placed in DII under a new divisional structure that was based on organization and talent. They have talent, reasonable organization, below-average school funding and it is a low-cost but well-known University with respected academics. In time, it could be an excellent roller hockey program, but not today.

Back to my question: Why don't Lindenwood (and Towson, as well as any other teams) play in the proper divisions?

[tambo6]

Hey Dave,

I understand when you ask 'why Towson doesn't play in DII', but Towson is now 18,000 students plus. When we first entered the league in 2002-2003, we were not and were advised to play in DII because we were a new team and may not be able to compete with the teams in DI at the time. However, we were given the option to play in DI if we chose to. As result, we chose to play in DI, which I believe, was a much more competitive and talented division in the ECRHA at that time. We struggled early, losing all 3 pre-season games. In time, we turned things around quite a bit. Therefore, we decided to stay in DI despite the fact that we were below 18,000 students at the time.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

[RustyPipes27]

It's probably easier to score honeys when you say that you're the Division I champions. Think about it. In EVERY OTHER COLLEGIATE SPORT, DI is the best of the best. I'd say that's why teams would prefer to play in DI.

Personally, I just tell the ladies that I gave up a walk-on spot with the football team for a roller hockey scholarship. Works every time.

[bakerg81]

Rusty Pipes,

Couldn't you just tell everyone that you're the best college roller hockey goalie in the country? I mean, it's true, and a lot more simple than going into all this excess nonsense about D1 champs and football walk on spots?

[DGlass]

Alright....I was wrong on Towson but my point remains:

Rhode Island had 15,062 students as of Fall '06 (http://autocrat.uri.edu/489.html)

RIT has 15,557 as of Fall 06-07
(http://www.rit.edu/fast_facts.html)

Towson has recently surpassed the cut-off.


RustyPipes, the PERCEPTION is that DI is better but that is not the official policy of the NCRHA. The league should either commit to changing the universal perception that DI > DII (you know, convince the NCAA, ESPN, Sports Illustrated and every sports fan in the world) based on an outdated policy or alter its policies to work within the framework of the universal standard. Until that happens, Lindenwood will not face some of the best teams (Neumann comes to mind but UMSL, Nevada, Stonybrook, Albany, etc. ...sorry, I'm not up-to-date on DII).

Even after a realignment, Lindenwood's dominance would probably continue but at least there would be NO question (except for the DIII factor...are Community Colleges on the same playing field?) as to the best in the country.

[GoRangrHky]

i'm going to have to agree with Tambo in that the ECRHA's DI was much better overall than DII back in 02-03.

[RustyPipes27]

Dave,

That was exactly my point. That it's just an initial PERCEPTION. Teams join because they want to play at what they think is the top level. And once they're there, they obviously want to stay.

[someaction]

The DI/DII debate is only applicable to specific regions. East and Great Plains have good teams and depth at DII, while SECRHL has DII teams who can't beat B teams. Although there may always be a random team in a random conference who is good (i.e. Nevada), the avg. DII team is less competitive than the avg. DI team.

[DGlass]

That's my point....the perception is NOT reality. Reality is that NCRHA's policy on divisional structure has nothing to do with true talent, rather it is based on the belief of potential talent. It needs to be changed to better reflect the true state of collegiate sports and as a better means of marketing our sport.

This league will never be able to achieve a marketable advantage if the best teams in the country are not working together and playing each other. The divisional structure needs to be officially changed but if the players, coaches and what little fans we have do not speak out, the NCRHA has no incentive to do anything.

[CUDangled]

First we need to get past the stigma that DII is a step "down" from DI. This would only be true if DI was picked based on talent. Yes, on AVERAGE the DI teams are better, but that isn't the point.

Restructure the entire league into "A", "B" and "C" divisions based on talent, track record or whatever...and then we can start talking about "stepping down" to another division.

FYI...I think you lack guts/heart/drive/character if you think "stepping down" a division just to win is the way to promote our sport. Nothing personal...that is just how I feel. I am sure you had pure intentions when you suggested this idea. But how can you feel pride in your accomplishments if you lowered the bar just to achieve them?

In a twisted way, I think that the Lindenwood dynasty has promoted our sport. It proves that you don't have to be a large University to win, which will encourage the smaller schools to step up their support of the respective teams AND encourage players of smaller schools to put new teams together and join our league. Plus there is somewhat of an iconic nature to the Lindenwood team. Peopple who don't know anything about the NCRHA know about the Lindenwood team. If it takes one small school to dominate the sport for 5+ to boost the popularity of the NCRHA, then so be it. Similar things have happened in other sports. Gretzky did it for the NHL, Dale Earnhardt did it for NASCAR.

[AlanMacMillan]

There are a couple of ways to look at this.

1. What can be done to increase the level of competition league wide? If you look at the stats from the top teams, there are few close games. Whatever the magic formula is, it should be aimed at placing teams comptetitively.

2. Comments about trying to raise the level of regions are far-fetched. In each region you have teams that are at different levels of organization, funding, and ability. My opinion is that the league continues to cater to the middle/bottom.

3. Lack of competition means teams aren't going to get/keep the best roller hockey players at their schools involved. When I was at MSU, we had a large number of players either not return or not join because we would play 30 games a season with only a handful of competitive games (EMU and Lindenwood usually). I assume the same is true for the teams getting blown-out every game. That can't be fun.

4. Premier was a good idea. It promoted organizational structure, professionalism, and competition. Ask guys like Mack (who've played CRH for a decade) which year was their favorite. Premier wins hands down. Had it been given another year or two, and actually had the support of the other regions, it would be the showcase of college roller hockey. The teams that were in Premier are still consistently competitive because they have structure and organization. Last year, the MCRHL wouldn't even allow MSU to schedule single games with our top opponents. Instead of playing UM and EMU on Friday and Saturday nights at Dumar's or in Canton, we'd play them at 8:30 am on a Sunday on the other side of the state. We packed big home games w/ UM and EMU in the old format.

5. Teams should be striving to get to the same level as LU in terms of school support, talent, recruiting, etc.... Is the current league structure promoting or hindering that?

Al

[tsuG0alie]

Gretzky did it for the NHL, Dale Earnhardt did it for NASCAR.

Good point, but please don't ever put NASCAR on the same level as hockey ever again...for the love of god...

[MBurke]

4. Premier was a good idea. It promoted organizational structure, professionalism, and competition. Ask guys like Mack (who've played CRH for a decade) which year was their favorite. Premier wins hands down. Had it been given another year or two, and actually had the support of the now NCRHA-leadership (aka ECRHA), it would be the showcase of college roller hockey. The teams that were in Premier are still consistently competitive because they have structure and organization. Last year, the MCRHL wouldn't even allow MSU to schedule single games with our top opponents. Instead of playing UM and EMU on Friday and Saturday nights at Dumar's or in Canton, we'd play them at 8:30 am on a Sunday on the other side of the state. We packed big home games w/ UM and EMU in the old format.


Al,

I'm pretty upset about this misrepresentation and I don't know why people continue to promote it. I'm not here to point fingers or name names, but...

No one in NCRHA leadership at this point is from the ECRHA. Brennan Edwards is from California and Rob Coggin is from Colorado. In fact, the only person from ECRHA who EVER had a position of leadership within NCRHA was myself, and I think the record will show that I made at several distinct attempts to bring forth a divisional change proposal that was largely based off of Premier and Andy's proposal (slightly less aggressive in terms of immediate change, but the same spirit). Each time it was rejected or tabled.

I'm not sure why our region continually gets the brunt of the blame. Who perpetuates this?

I agree with all your other points :)

[CUDangled]

Good point, but please don't ever put NASCAR on the same level as hockey ever again...for the love of god...

haha...sorry about that. Just trying to think of examples. :)

[AlanMacMillan]

I corrected my comment. I wasn't involved with the league during the Premier year and haven't kept up on who's doing what. My understanding of the premier effort is that there were interested ECRHA teams who were discouraged from participating. It wasn't meant to be a shot at you.

With that being said, it's been 5 years since Premier. What's the next step now? I'm not trying to be negative. Almost all of my posts here have been around the question of what can be done to improve competition. To me, that's the biggest issue the league has faced since it started. I'm not representing anyone other than myself with these comments - someone who put a lot of time and effort into this league (back in the day) and wants to see it evolve.

Al

[CUDangled]

I fear that the league is not looking into the future enough. What our the goals for the future? 5 years out? 10 years out? They may be dreams at this point, but what are we striving for? If we don't have clear cut goals, that are well known by all the teams, how can we judge our progress? Do we want to grow in size? Or strength? Or both? If 5 years from now the league shrunk to 100 teams, but we were all 50% backed by our respective schools, would that be looked at as a failure or success? We lost teams, but we gain $$$ support.

As other people posted, I certainly am not pointing fingers. Several people put in a lot of time at near volunteer wages to make this league run and I/we are very appreciative of that. So if you are active in the league, please do not take offense to my post. Just merely trying to make suggestions for improvement.

[MBurke]

No offense at all.

How about those of you who have good ideas of how you want NCRHA to progress start putting those things in writing and sending them to the NCRHA BOD (which includes your regional director)?

[CUDangled]

Last year, the MCRHL wouldn't even allow MSU to schedule single games with our top opponents. Instead of playing UM and EMU on Friday and Saturday nights at Dumar's or in Canton, we'd play them at 8:30 am on a Sunday on the other side of the state. We packed big home games w/ UM and EMU in the old format.

Good point Al, I'll back you up on that comment. Including pro games, State Wars, National events, College nationals...the only time I have seen a building PACKED...and I mean standing room only (and very little of that) was an MSU vs UofM game at Dumar's. It was a single Friday night game. Tons of high school kids (future recruits) were there to watch the game. Do you think they would have been there at 7am on a Sunday?

[Army Defense]

Probably not, but if things work out with athletic directors from Air Force and Navy, then we will play to a packed house no matter when our match-ups occur next year against them.:D