Lindenwood 9, Towson 1

[alex]

Should we just hand them the trophy now?

[RUsigs11]

I know I haven't seen many of the other teams from the other regions, but Towson has consistently been the best team in ECRHA for 3+ years now, and even they looked overwhelmed by Lindenwood in this game. Lindenwood is a phenomenal team, and they are the standard for excellence in college roller hockey. However, the playoffs are there for a reason. Anything can happen in one game.

[ISFN]

Yea must be real fun playin for Lindenwood, I'm sure thoes kids have a blast.

[bigdaddy80]

**** Lindenwood

[ISFN]

Agreed

Hurting the sport more than helping it for sure.

[MBurke]

Agreed

Hurting the sport more than helping it for sure.

What's your reasoning behind that? I've heard some good differing viewpoints on it.

[ISFN]

Well I believe if they continue to dominate D1 your going to see more and more schools stay down at the D2 level and never move up which should be the case. You should want D1 to be the biggest and best division and as it is now I think D2 and D3 are the best because they both have a great amount of talent and almost all the games are close which is fun for the fans and players.

And one thing kids need to relize is none of thoes players on LU are going for free, most paying around 4 or 5k a year which is a joke, the school raises their tution to around 20k a year then says they'er giving stundents scholorships. When in all actuallity you can go anywhere in Missouri (and prolly any state) for between 4-6k so its not a good deal what so ever. And on top of that the school is horriable with its rules and everything, ask the kid who came from out-of-state (to play hockey) and stayed for 2 days and left.

I congrat all the schools for doing what you should be doing and practicing and training to get better insted of just geting the best out there to play for you.

Its one thing to recruit in-state, its another to get kids from all over, just think if all thoes kids from diffrent states had stayed in-state and attended a school there, just how good thoes teams and the league would of been.

Whats your thought on the subject Burke?

[MBurke]

I think everyone has a grip on the negative points of Lindenwood dominating year in and year out. I have heard some pretty compelling arguments to the contrary, though.

Many current tournament players don't play for a university team. Where are they? Many don't give the college game enough 'credit' for being high caliber. However, Lindenwood has changed that. If you mention them to just about anyone in our sport, they know who the team is. In some sense, Lindenwood has helped put college roller hockey on the map when it comes to the tournament circuits.

Is one dominant team nationally really good enough justification to stay in a different division? I don't think the "we can't beat Lindenwood, so we're not going to move up" argument holds a heck of a lot of water. Even if they were guaranteed to win every year, is it really worth mercying teams game in and game out for an entire season in order to have a shot at a national championship? Is all that worth one game? I personally wouldn't enjoy playing for a team like that knowing that I could move up and be in competitive games for my entire regional schedule.

[ISFN]

Well really nothing you or I say can nor will change the fact that they dominate. Its going to take players to change that, kids need to stay in-state with their friends and all attend one school. Its not going to take 8 all-star kids at one school to beat LU, as we saw last year at Nationals, if only Michigan had that one more player then things could have been different and thats what it will take is that one more player/goalie.

And if you think teams aren't moving up because of LU, look at Nuemann and UMSL, they amongst a few other teams have been at the top of D2 for a while now and both have won a title, so why wont they move up and step up to the challenge of LU and D1? Because they know it will be pointless and even though alot of people say they dont choose schools due to hockey, if a player is deciding between 2 schools and one is D1 and another is D2 (in hockey) I would believe that the fact that they wont have a chance at the national title in D1 comes to mind and believe many would choose that D2 school for that exact reason. Schools are basically Schools, now some have different majors and this and that but basically all are the same, so students/players will look at the different advantages like hockey, guy:girl ratio, location stuff like that.

[dan sangiorgio]

our school stays D2 for a couple of different reasons. But because we don't want to lose to lindenwood is not one of them. we haven't moved up yet because our school is smaller then some highschools, plus our school has only taken and interst in building our program in the last 2 or 3 years. we might have been able to play d1 last year and this year and be right there with towson for the d1 championship and have a shot and doing very well at nationals for d1. But staying d2 and winning for a couple of years gets adminstration to notice our team and take an interest. This leads to more funding which can lead to things like scholarships and equpment aka all the things lindenwood gets now. I see so many people complain that lindenwood has such an advantage, but no one ever asks them how they got that way it didn't just happen over night, they built it by winning and getting the school to reconize them. This is why our school is where it belongs for now. i think some people think because there school is d1 they are better then the d2 schools but thats not the case. truthfully i think our school would have had a better record in d1 last year then we did in d2. if you watch our game vs rutgers they had 2 or 3 solid players but had no depth thats why we were able to dominate them so badly in most of the second and third period, and we did so without steve klenk one of our best players and our starting goalie.
so do i think we are afraid to play lindenwood the answer is no. do i think lindenwood would beat us.......yes but we would give them as good as game they are gonna get in college hockey

[DGlass]

Hey, apparently nobody knows anything about the NCRHA.

Lindenwood (and Towson, the ECRHA's best...and RIT - former CRHL Champs) all BELONG in DII. Temple (for one) BELONGS in DI.

DI - Schools over 18,000 students.
DII - Schools below 18,000 students.
DIII - Community and Junior Colleges
B - Secondary, tertiary, etc. teams


DI is NOT for the best teams, it is for the biggest schools. It is a backwards and outdated method of grouping schools.

Because of the way the NCAA is organized, DI is automatically assumed to be the most talented teams and DII to be less talented. The top DII teams would probabaly be able to play with the bottom DI teams but they shouldn't have a chance in hell against a premier DI team (anyone Arcadia University's basketball team even belongs on the same court as OSU, Florida or Pitt?).


The NCRHA should either restructure their divisional alignments or enforce their current rules. Until they do one of those two, this league is still a joke. Knowing the ECRHA better than other regions, our DII is infinitely more competitive than DI.



Oh, and to go on-topic: Remember, this sport is still young and the talent pool small. A team like Lindenwood, with their resources, clearly has an upper hand in the minimal amount of recruiting that occurs but there are still plenty of talented players out there who will want to go to Florida, UCSB, Towson, Colorado, MSU, even Army.

Get off your asses and organize your team. Don't expect blatant handouts from your school. Prove to them you are worth the investment of five-, ten-, twenty-, even fourty-thousand dollars. Prove you are an upstanding club - do community service, teach clinics at a local rink, compile team grades and show you have a 3.4 cumulative GPA (even enforce a minimum GPA or hold study hours) while practicing twice a week and playing in the college league and in a house league.

College Roller Hockey starts and stops with the teams. Alright, that's a rant and hits below many belts but it gets to the point. I ran Pitt for 3 years and we raised our budget from ~$12K to ~$40K. You can't do it alone, get the rest of your team involved. Everyone can do something to help your team on and off the rink, preferably both.

[TheSnake22]

first, inline hockey is not an ncaa sport, so your point doesn't really apply... second, there are a good number of schools who compete in division 1 football, basketball and other sports with enrollments of well under 18,000 (see mid-majors). the idea actually is to compete at the highest level, so if you can cut it with the larger schools, you belong in division 1. gonzaga has an enrollment of around 7,000 and are consistently in the top 25. the other thing that ncaa divisions decide are the scholarship rules for schools, which plays a huge roll in where a team can compete. this obviously is something that doesnt apply to inline hockey yet as well. division 1 schools have considerably larger budgets to give full rides, where other schools are only allowed to give fewer or partial scholarships.

i think lindenwood is a progressive institution in college roller hockey, and if inline ever wants to move towards being an ncaa sport, however unlikely, more schools should follow some similar steps to draw the best players to their programs.

[eXpress19]

I am a 17 year old student attending Perkiomen Valley and honestly I'd have to agree with the statement that if I am looking at 2 different schools, I'm going to go to the one with the best shot of a national title, regardless of division. I have already been accepted by Neumann College and plan on attending there and playing for the hockey team because they have a legit chance every year of repeating. I think a national championship would be a great thing to be apart of. So I hope that helps you understand why students choose where to go and why...

Go Express

[Lindenwoodhockey]

I think the wrong thing to do is to blame Lindenwood. There has been a lot of hard work that has been put into that program including convincing administration that the roller hockey program is important to the university, hours put into recruiting players in the early days of the program, and the hours in practice to get our teams to the top level. I think if you ask any of our players, they are very happy to be a part of our winning program. We ask a lot of them to be involved in the college community and balancing the life of a student-athlete, but they get a lot in return. Some players have transferred out of school here, but you will find that at every institution. I believe we are a good model for other schools and we work very hard to continue to promote the positive growth of college roller hockey.

p.s. And just think if those kids wouldn't have listened to Herb Brooks, we wouldn't have won that gold medal in 1980!

[JLambertUMSL]

On behalf of UMSL (I saw our name mentioned a couple times)...

We see no need to move up. Our region is extremely competitive. We had a phenomenal team last year that came together perfectly and performed brilliantly all year. Mercying teams game in and game out? That isn't going to happen this year, and most years it doesn't happen.

Our region is going to be tough this year. SLU tied us last Sunday, we beat Truman State 3-0 (with an empty-net goal), and beat Wash U 8-6 after being tied 6-6 with less than 5:00 to play. Missouri State only lost 6-5 to Wash U, and we play them Saturday in a game that is going to be a lot tougher than anyone would have expected.

Don't lump us in with Neumann. They've been in the national championship game four years in a row. That's the DII dynasty, not us or anyone else.

What about Nevada? They've made the final four in all three years of their existence, have won consecutive WCRHL championships, and had a team much more dominant than our '05-06 team when they went undefeated and won the national championship.

What about UT Dallas? They've cleaned up their region for how many years in a row?

So why do all these teams stay in DII? One good reason is because in any given year, half the DII field has a legitimate shot at the national championship. Last year, more than half the teams could have realistically gotten hot and won.

Neumann, UMSL, Brockport, Nevada, Long Beach State, UTD, UCSD, Wash U, and Hofstra had the horses to win it all. That's nine of the sixteen teams, and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone.

Neumann/UMSL/Brockport/Nevada: they all played on Sunday and all could have won.
Long Beach State: They looked talented enough to me. They did tie Neumann.
UCSD: Fast, and one of the best goaltenders in the country.
UTD: They have the talent every year.
Wash U: They were good enough to beat us at Regionals after we'd been ranked number one for weeks. They were plenty talented to win it all.
Hofstra: Probably would have been a final-four team with Mosenson.

Two-thirds of the playoff games were decided by three goals or fewer (10 of 15). We had an overtime semifinal and a national championship game that was inches away from going to OT (that one still burns).

It makes for a more exciting Nationals, and clearly more passion than in DI and DIII, whose champions, upon winning, act no more excited than if they'd just mercied some poor league opponent in November.

Hell, we even had a cinderella story (Elon).

There's no reason to switch, because it's too much fun in DII.

[ISFN]

dan sangiorgio, you mentioned that you wanted to gain respect from the administration by possiably winning a championship and having a good record, so basically your agreeing with me because you know you wont win in D1 so you said your going to stay in D2 just to win, that shouldn't be the case you should want to play the best and beat the best. I totally understand why would a team want to move up just to loose and thats the problom. I'm not bashing you or anything I too agree I wouldn't want to move up you just dont want to admit its because you wont win. And about your D1 league not being so good on the east, well the main reason is once again cause you D2 schools dont move up, if you guys started moving up your better D2 teams and possiably switiching with some D1 that woulnd't be the case.

DGlass, totally agree with this post. I think a major reconstruction of the league is in order as far as teams being in the right place and so on. Theres to many large schools playing D2 just simply because they suck or dont get enough players. Even if these (large D2 schools) teams suck they should still be in D1 just because their size, now if a smaller school like LU is obviously going to kill D2 I think that is when a school should be moved up, so yea I agree this needs to be looked at in order to solidfy this league and make it somthing the school admin. will respect.


eXpress19, thanks for the post, I know its so true and many kids wont admit they attend schools for hockey, I know I chose my school simply for the hockey and the only reason I'm going to school is to continue playing hockey.

Definitly not bashing anyone on the NCRHA board you all do a great job and I thank you all for a league to play in but like any sports organization there are things that need to be addressed and fixed even in the pros.

[MBurke]

Don't you think you're contradicting yourself in your two responses, though?

You say Neumann should move up because they should want to play the best, yet at the same time contend that large schools shouldn't be permitted to move down even if they're getting routinely crushed.

Is it not realistic to say that, all other things being equal, a small school in the NY/NJ/Philly area will probably have more roller hockey players than a large state school in the middle of Iowa?

Are you asserting that our divisions should have something to do with competitive ability or not?

I think competitive ability is a terrible way to form divisions, probably even worse than our current arbitrary school size breakdown. Teams don't have the budgets to recruit in the same ways that NCAA varsity programs do, so there will understandably be wide changes in the talent pool as players graduate. I'm sure we can come up with anecdotal evidence from every region of teams falling off a cliff in consecutive years.

There must be a better way.

[ISFN]

JLambertUMSL, almost agree 100% and totally understand why would you want to move up when you wont win or have little chance, which again brings me back to my o.p about how they (LU) are hurting the NCRHA more than helping, I got a chance to watch you guys last year at winters play LU in your playoff and thought it was a great game better than their semi game at nationals. Look how many teams you named that could of won last year in D2, now realisticly how many could of took down LU, 2? Eastern Michigan and Michigan State now thats sad for D1 knowing only 2, 3, maybe 4 teams could win, how fun is that for thoes other teams going to nationals, "yay we might get 8th place"

And I agree I think the Great Plains might have the best most competitive D2 region.

[ISFN]

Don't you think you're contradicting yourself in your two responses, though?

You say Neumann should move up because they should want to play the best, yet at the same time contend that large schools shouldn't be permitted to move down even if they're getting routinely crushed.

Is it not realistic to say that, all other things being equal, a small school in the NY/NJ/Philly area will probably have more roller hockey players than a large state school in the middle of Iowa?

Are you asserting that our divisions should have something to do with competitive ability or not?

I think competitive ability is a terrible way to form divisions, probably even worse than our current arbitrary school size breakdown. Teams don't have the budgets to recruit in the same ways that NCAA varsity programs do, so there will understandably be wide changes in the talent pool as players graduate. I'm sure we can come up with anecdotal evidence from every region of teams falling off a cliff in consecutive years.

There must be a better way.


Not sure how I contradicted my self, I think Nuemann is a great team and would do awesome in D1 so why not move up? I know why they dont is because like their player said they want to gain respect and get noticed from the Admin. by winning and hopfully getting a D2 trophy.

I'll try and make it more clear as I did kind of ramble on earlier, I think the large schools (large attendence) should be in D1, smaller schools in D2, now if you have a smaller school like Neumann or LU winning D2 move them up to D1 with the big boys but dont move a large D1 school down just because they suck, let them work and try and attract more, better, skilled players. You dont get good playing aginst poor talent, you get good/better by playing the best talent there is which should be in D1.

Possiably adding a D1-A and D1-AA along with D2, so putting the best D1 schools in D1-A and the rest in D1-AA just to simply give thoes not so good large schools in D1 a place to play and a league to compete. I believe untill they (NCRHA) gets a solid way of putting the teams in their respected divisions, that schools wont respect us and our game. Just somthing to think about.

[MBurke]

Not sure how I contradicted my self, I think Nuemann is a great team and would do awesome in D1 so why not move up? I know why they dont is because like their player said they want to gain respect and get noticed from the Admin. by winning and hopfully getting a D2 trophy.

I'll try and make it more clear as I did kind of ramble on earlier, I think the large schools (large attendence) should be in D1, smaller schools in D2, now if you have a smaller school like Neumann or LU winning D2 move them up to D1 with the big boys but dont move a large D1 school down just because they suck, let them work and try and attract more, better, skilled players. You dont get good playing aginst poor talent, you get good/better by playing the best talent there is which should be in D1.

Is a large school like Kansas State (because they're one of the large schools that has moved down) ever going to attract the amount of talent necessary to be a top Division I team? Remember, the vast majority of students at any state school are in-state. How many great roller hockey players are coming out of Kansas, and what makes them more likely to attract an incoming student than a smaller school in a more competitive position like Neumann?

And just because they're 'good' doesn't mean they'll stay that way. Look at Ball State in the MCRHL or Riverside in the WCRHL - they were very competitive for a number of years and had a big dropoff.

I'm just not sure why large schools should be 'punished' for being less competitive in a club sports system - in many ways they're handicapped by more restrictive budgets and tighter policies. Many clubs from large schools in our region get (TOTAL CLUB SPORTS BUDGET / # OF CLUBS) dollars per year and have no way of changing that.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is no solution that is fair and equitable for everyone involved.

[missionhockey19]

i say we bring lindenwood to DIII just for one year and see how that goes, i know RCC lots of players droppped off because of the compeition level seeming to deteriorate, i for one had those feelings...i think if we had a poll, 90% of players in the NCRHA would like to see lindenwood play rcc...thats just my thoughts and opinons...anyone elses?

[JLambertUMSL]

To illustrate Burke's point about big dropoffs and swings in competitiveness...

In 1998, UMSL won the national championship (there was only one), becoming the first non-California school to do so.

In 2002, UMSL won about four games while wearing blank jerseys.

In 2004, UMSL won the NCRHA DII national championship.

[DUHockey9]

I think until Roller Hockey is more nationally recognized and even NCAA recognized it's difficult to do anything other than what we are currently doing. This isn't football so kids are going to go across the country to play Roller Hockey for the most part. The best teams are in the Roller Hockey hotbeds, and school size really has nothing to do with it.

[ISFN]

Burke, Yea I agree with you about the team never getting enough talent (K.State) to win but thats why possiably a tier 2 D-1 division should be added, still keeping them grouped with the large schools because they for sure are one. And just because teams are bad for one year or loose players doesn't mean we drop them down right away, they will get better and if they dont putting them in a lower division and playing weaker teams defintily wont get them better. I thought the whole goal of the NCRHA and its teams was to try and get the school to see them not as a club sport but as a varsity/school sport, if we keep acting and treating it like a club sport then it will never grow and become a school sport.

missionhockey19, not to sure how that would help solve any problems. And if you think the D3 league was weak last year thank LU they took the best player SCC ever had, I personally think the D3 league this year looks like the biggest and strongest it has ever had, sorry your not playing to enjoy it.

[ISFN]

To illustrate Burke's point about big dropoffs and swings in competitiveness...

In 1998, UMSL won the national championship (there was only one), becoming the first non-California school to do so.

In 2002, UMSL won about four games while wearing blank jerseys.

In 2004, UMSL won the NCRHA DII national championship.


I understand players come and go but to drop a school down because of it doesn't seem like the right thing, leave them up, they certainly wont get any worse playing tougher teams they can only get better.

[DGlass]

It's the perception that matters.

The PERCEPTION is that DII is below DI. In NCAA, DI is better than DII, for a number of reasons, but the point is that DI is better than DII. The difference in DI schools is ridiculous enough, imagine Michigan playing Temple - let alone Michigan playing a DII or DIII football team (let's go with LaGrange, 0-10, 93 PF, 421 PA) (again, the pereception is that DIII is less than DII and DI).

Regardless of whether you know the difference, and the opposing teams know the differnce, the future fan-base does not. Rather than trying to alter the rest of the country's perception of collegiate sports (club or otherwise), we should work within them and grow ourselves.

[Leaferguy]

I understand players come and go but to drop a school down because of it doesn't seem like the right thing, leave them up, they certainly wont get any worse playing tougher teams they can only get better.
Or they can get nobody at all.

As much as we all love to play, some guys won't be coming out when you're chasing that elusive 0-win season. I know that teams have continued to show up despite getting their hats handed to them game in and game out, and I respect that. I don't see how encouraging blowouts or winless teams helps the sport grow, though.

I don't think NCAA recognition is a possibility for a long time. Not saying it shouldn't be thought about, but there are many issues preventing roller hockey from becoming NCAA sanctioned and then supported at the school level.


The only thing I could think of would be to break the season into three parts. Have a preseason ranking period of six or eight games. A regular season of eight or ten games or something. Re-rank based on a solid statistical algorithm (actually defining it... not so easy). Top 8 or 12 teams go into a season-ending DI schedule of maybe 8 games? Second group of however many teams goes into an 8 game schedule or something? Have Regionals based on the re-ranking and the subsequent results.

So many problems with what I suggested (too many games for starters), I know, but it's really hard because we have very few powerhouse programs in this league. Any largely subjective ranking is going to piss off almost everyone who isn't number one, but we don't have enough regularity to base it on previous results.

[ISFN]

It's the perception that matters.

The PERCEPTION is that DII is below DI. In NCAA, DI is better than DII, for a number of reasons, but the point is that DI is better than DII. The difference in DI schools is ridiculous enough, imagine Michigan playing Temple - let alone Michigan playing a DII or DIII football team (let's go with LaGrange, 0-10, 93 PF, 421 PA) (again, the pereception is that DIII is less than DII and DI).

Regardless of whether you know the difference, and the opposing teams know the differnce, the future fan-base does not. Rather than trying to alter the rest of the country's perception of collegiate sports (club or otherwise), we should work within them and grow ourselves.


Excatly, very well put.

You work for NCRHA? You need to.

[Patn Lawton]

I don't think Neumann stays in D2 because they are afraid to play Neumann or lose. Neumann never plays as a team thats afraid to lose to anyone regardless of their opponents. D2 is legitimetly (pat doesnt spell) more competetive and more fun than D1 in the ECRHA. I think that is a big reason that no teams who have had 1-2 good seasons and have established a solid program (Neumann, Wentworth, Hofstra) have moved up to D1.

[bakerg81]

In response to Burke and the financial situation at large schools, we at Penn State are on the highest level of financial support from our school and receive less than $2000. Our D1 Club ice hockey team has been in the national championship game for like the past 7 or 8 years and rumor has it they only receive about $4500. They help as much as they can and we really do a lot of things to help improve our stock (working with youth leagues, community service, complying with all club sports guidelines, participating in Club Sports events, etc.), but at a school with 40,000 students, it's pretty hard to convince them to give 25 kids on the roller hockey team $20,000 a year to participate in a league that isn't generating any revenue back for the school.

We have 54 club sports at our school in addition to 673 other student organizations. Getting financial support from our school just isn't going to happen in a way that's going to let us be competitive with the financial resources other roller hockey teams are getting. In addition to that, our admission requirements are much stricter than some of the smaller and more successful schools that we compete against. Our middle 50% SAT range, example, is 1160 to 1340. Compare that to Towson at 1040 to 1200. Moreso, our middle 50% for ACT scores is 26-30 where as Lindenwood's goes from 19-26. This is not to say that all roller hockey players are stupid, but whereas schools such as Towson or Lindenwood can get players with lower academic scores and GPAs, they're simply not available to us at PSU. That puts us at an additional disadvantage.

This is not to make excuses. Large schools have the advantge of attracting a variety of kids and thus hockey players from different backgrounds and different leagues. We have kids from Pittsburgh, New York, Philly, New Jersey and Long Island. It's really a give and take situation. If you want to win games, you have to work hard. We had a team from PSU in the National Championship game three years ago. No one was saying then it was unfair to the big schools.

Fact is, every school has their has positives and their negatives. You have to play with what you got and put a team on the rink that's going to compete at the highest level your school is capable of.

Furthermore, since everyone here seems to be scared to play Lindenwood, perhaps we should forego the rest of the season and just declare them the national champions. I've gotten my butt kicked playing roller hockey before, and I'll be damned if I'm not going to try because of the beatings they put on other teams. I'll play Lindenwood right now, I don't give a sh*t. There's no pride in not trying.

Also, we(PSU) could use a coach. So, if you're a coach with no job or know a coach with no job, contact us. We're kind of financially strapped, but we'll re-pay you in regional/national championships.

[ISFN]

In response to Burke and the financial situation at large schools, we at Penn State are on the highest level of financial support from our school and receive less than $2000. Our D1 Club ice hockey team has been in the national championship game for like the past 7 or 8 years and rumor has it they only receive about $4500. They help as much as they can and we really do a lot of things to help improve our stock (working with youth leagues, community service, complying with all club sports guidelines, participating in Club Sports events, etc.), but at a school with 40,000 students, it's pretty hard to convince them to give 25 kids on the roller hockey team $20,000 a year to participate in a league that isn't generating any revenue back for the school.

We have 54 club sports at our school in addition to 673 other student organizations. Getting financial support from our school just isn't going to happen in a way that's going to let us be competitive with the financial resources other roller hockey teams are getting. In addition to that, our admission requirements are much stricter than some of the smaller and more successful schools that we compete against. Our middle 50% SAT range, example, is 1160 to 1340. Compare that to Towson at 1040 to 1200. Moreso, our middle 50% for ACT scores is 26-30 where as Lindenwood's goes from 19-26. This is not to say that all roller hockey players are stupid, but whereas schools such as Towson or Lindenwood can get players with lower academic scores and GPAs, they're simply not available to us at PSU. That puts us at an additional disadvantage.

This is not to make excuses. Large schools have the advantge of attracting a variety of kids and thus hockey players from different backgrounds and different leagues. We have kids from Pittsburgh, New York, Philly, New Jersey and Long Island. It's really a give and take situation. If you want to win games, you have to work hard. We had a team from PSU in the National Championship game three years ago. No one was saying then it was unfair to the big schools.

Fact is, every school has their has positives and their negatives. You have to play with what you got and put a team on the rink that's going to compete at the highest level your school is capable of.

Furthermore, since everyone here seems to be scared to play Lindenwood, perhaps we should forego the rest of the season and just declare them the national champions. I've gotten my butt kicked playing roller hockey before, and I'll be damned if I'm not going to try because of the beatings they put on other teams. I'll play Lindenwood right now, I don't give a sh*t. There's no pride in not trying.

Also, we(PSU) could use a coach. So, if you're a coach with no job or know a coach with no job, contact us. We're kind of financially strapped, but we'll re-pay you in regional/national championships.


Interesting to hear about your teams financial situation.

And I dont think Neumann is scared so much its just to the point of why would they, and I dont mean to single out Neumann they'er just a great team who I think would make it to the D1 finals thats why I use them, not to bash more or less to congrat.

[DGlass]

Penn State's (financial and club) situation is opposite to what we encountered at Pitt.

At its height, we were a 200+ member club with 14 teams. 2 played in the ECRHA, 2 in the Western PA local college league, and we ran a 10 team intramural league. I'm not sure what the exact status of all that is now, but in speaking to current players, the IM league has next to no true talent to bring up to DI or create a worthwhile B team.

With 200+ members in the club, an active participant in the league (Fred Shrayber then myself) and connections to the Student Government Board (SGB) through fraternities, classes, high school classmates and Washington-esque lobbying, our club leaders were able to, as I said, increase our school funding dramatically.

The SGB and its Allocations Committee decide what clubs get what, based on club organization, committment, and need. At our meetings, we would regularly have anywhere from 10-50 club members show up and provide back-room support for our requests.

Pitt was lucky in what we got, but we also had talent that allowed us to prove to the school that we were worth the investment, having gone to 5 NCTs in the clubs history. While we did little community service, we did try and raise money by selling t-shirts (lost a lot of money but the attempt showed we tried) and holding a roller hockey camp in 2004 (I was in Australia and couldn't really do anything there).

FInally, in comparison to Penn State. Pitt 'only' has 28,000 students and, like PSU, is a state-assisted insitution, meaning approximately 20% of the school's budget comes from the state of PA (as opposed to the 14 state schools - West Chester, Ship, Millersville, etc. - which, I believe, receive 100% of their funding from the state).

I don't know exactly what the situation at Pitt is this year, and I am still learning about Temple (another state-assisted PA school, Lincoln is the other) but I believe Temple is on par with PSU.

[TheSnake22]

Penn State ice hockey 5 years ago is the direct equivalent of what Lindenwood roller hockey is today. Granted ice hockey games are much more likely to be closer on the scoreboard, PSU went to every national championship expecting to win. Since 1998, PSU has made EVERY NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME, while winning 5 titles, 4 in a row from 2000-2004. Now there are a handful of club ice hockey programs that can beat and compete with PSU (Ohio U, Rhode Island, Illinois, etc...) Penn State still has an amazing club program and attracts the best players, but other schools have taken it upon themselves to get to the level needed to compete for the national championship. I don't understand how people can criticize Lindenwood for being the best. It sure sounds like there are programs out there who could play at their level with some work in a relatively short period of time...

And Baker, ask Lavera if he needs the Snake to coach him...

[mackert]

I don't think NCAA recognition is a possibility for a long time. Not saying it shouldn't be thought about, but there are many issues preventing roller hockey from becoming NCAA sanctioned and then supported at the school level.


Are you talking about the fact that everyone still isn't wearing ear guards? Because for a few years I viewed that as the major problem with the CRHL/NCRHA, I'm glad they're finally addressing that problem.

Seriously, I don't want to go on and on with this, and I'll acknowledge that there are some positive points to what LU is bringing to the NCRHA. But there are some big problems, too, and I think the negatives are starting to outweigh the positives. I saw that EMU lost a game this season to someone they shouldn't have (Grand Valley State or something); I called a friend who was a referee at the event. He said that EMU was playing with five guys and not all that interested in killing themselves all season to come in second place to LU. I had the feeling last year at nationals that a lot of teams were a year or two away from just becoming overly frustrated with the fact that very few teams have a realistic chance of beating LU. (Last year how many teams could've given them a real game? Two? Three?)

I recognize that LU has done a good job selling the benefits of the program to the school, and more power to them for that. But for some to argue that other schools need to do an equally good job of selling their programs to their schools... Well, you just don't have a realistic view of what things can be like at a much larger school. At MSU we were lucky to have an on-campus rink to practice at, but our practices were late at night after IM roller hockey and soccer games were over; IM sports took priority over club teams. Any team trying to sell their program to a big school is going to be fighting a steep uphill battle - that's the reason there are varsity AND club sports at these big schools. What would a team like MSU try and argue are the benefits to the school of significantly increasing support to the team? The NCRHA doesn't currently have the fans, overall level of competition, or organization level to make a case for any schools moving into varsity-like status at a big university. This isn't to say that the NCRHA is doing a bad job or anything, it's just nowhere near what a DI school is going to expect a varsity team to be competing in.

Again, I admire what LU accomplished, they've built something strong and enduring. But it also creates a major problem for the NCRHA (IMHO) that can't completely be solved by telling the other teams to "just work harder with your school to get the same kind of support."

My $.02.

[KillinAintShe]

I agree...

It also helps when you can give anybody a scholarship for anything...

Must be nice.

That being said...

I don't dislike Lindenwood and I repect highly what they have been able to accomplish. LU is a model of hard work and success and they deserve all of the good that comes to them.

Great coach, great players, etc...

[AlanMacMillan]

Are I called a friend who was a referee at the event. He said that EMU was playing with five guys and not all that interested in killing themselves all season to come in second place to LU. I had the feeling last year at nationals that a lot of teams were a year or two away from just becoming overly frustrated with the fact that very few teams have a realistic chance of beating LU. (Last year how many teams could've given them a real game? Two? Three?)

I think this point is critical. The main issue I see with college roller hockey is the lack of competitive games. During my two years coaching MSU (and 4.5 years playing there), very few of our games were close.
Our primary challeges were:
1. How do you motivate and maintain interest from your players when only a handful of games will be competitive throughout the entire season?
2. How do you get those players to return year after year when the situation doesn't change? Goalies, in particular, get pretty bored and are hard to keep.
3. How do you get those players to sacrifice, dedicate themselves, and focus all season for a single game (LU)?

You can't fault LU for being so good. They have support from their school and are actively building an excellent program. I wish there were a dozen schools at that level. I'd be suprised if LU didn't have many of the same feelings - from a competition perspective. The difference is that they have an added incentive ($$).

Grouping teams into competitive divisions is a difficult task. Every year we see a few programs that experience a significant decline. Teams that don't build a solid program (not just a fairly talented team) are prone to this.

This isn't meant to be a criticism of LU, the league, or anybody else. I'm now participating in the SE region and I see many of the same things. My point is simple: The more competitive games and teams are, the more you will see the talent and organization of the league progress. The huge percentage of lopsided games make it difficult to gain and maintain interest of the most talented players. Lopsided games don't attract fans. Lopsided games fail to motivate teams to improve.

Is the level of competition a significant concern of most teams (on either side of lopsided games)? If it is, I would like to see this issue addressed as such.

Please focus on this last question - rather than running off-topic.
Al MacMillan
Player MSU 96-01
Coach UM 2002, MSU 04-06, (Assistant) NC State 2006-

[ISFN]

mackert, Great post and I agree 100%, I'm glad somone else finally spoke up.

AlanMacMillan, also good post and you made some soild points.

[Dead34]

Snake - You are a silly silly kid! That would be amusing to, say the least, if you were our coach...but we do need some more organization. I think you could handle it, after all - you managed to down size my 5-whole about 80% to what it used to be. lol

[MBurke]

Those Michigan guys know a thing or two about this stuff, having been around for a decade.

As Mackert and Alan bring up though, it presents an interesting set of problems with very few concrete solutions.

1) How do you keep a competitive playing field and competitive games with factors like team turnover (especially for DIII teams, who can go from excellent to less than mediocre over one years' time)?

2) If your solution to #1 is to allow teams to play where they feel most competitive (similar in many ways to the system we have now), how do you prevent teams from moving down to 'avoid' a team like Lindenwood?

3) Close games are probably the most important factor, but how does budget and organization play into this? There are plenty of talented teams operating on shoestring budgets who can't "look" or "act" as professional as some of the less talented teams with money to spare. This brings up travel and a bunch of other concerns as well.

How do you tie all of those together in a way that makes sense and rewards teams for being more organized (thus helping our sport grow and get recognition) while maintaining the opportunity for those teams who just want a competitive intercollegiate environment without the huge financial burden of travel/budgeting?

I think the real solution lies in answering that question in a way that accommodates the vast majority of current NCRHA members.

[mackert]

Those Michigan guys know a thing or two about this stuff, having been around for a decade.

As Mackert and Alan bring up though, it presents an interesting set of problems with very few concrete solutions.

1) How do you keep a competitive playing field and competitive games with factors like team turnover (especially for DIII teams, who can go from excellent to less than mediocre over one years' time)?

2) If your solution to #1 is to allow teams to play where they feel most competitive (similar in many ways to the system we have now), how do you prevent teams from moving down to 'avoid' a team like Lindenwood?

3) Close games are probably the most important factor, but how does budget and organization play into this? There are plenty of talented teams operating on shoestring budgets who can't "look" or "act" as professional as some of the less talented teams with money to spare. This brings up travel and a bunch of other concerns as well.

How do you tie all of those together in a way that makes sense and rewards teams for being more organized (thus helping our sport grow and get recognition) while maintaining the opportunity for those teams who just want a competitive intercollegiate environment without the huge financial burden of travel/budgeting?

I think the real solution lies in answering that question in a way that accommodates the vast majority of current NCRHA members.

Fine, I'll bite.

(By the way, I'm glad you think Al and I know what we're talking about. But now we're North Carolina and Texas guys, respectively. Ah, how I miss MSU... :))

Anyway, the real answer here (to me) is a system similar to what happened with Premier, Competitive, and Development back in the CRHL. You can call the divisions whatever you want (call the top one the Crap League, if it'll make everyone feel better), but the point here is that we can separate the teams that have both good skill and organization (which leads to having good teams on a consistent basis) from those that don't. If a team doesn't want to make the jump to the top division and compete with LU, fine - it's their decision. But a smaller, more dedicated group of top teams in the top division WOULD make it possible for clubs in bigger schools to make an argument to the university that the school might really benefit from further financial support of the team.

I'm not saying, and would never say, that the Premier/Competitive split was done perfectly. It wasn't. But the point is that a similar plan (however it might be accomplished) would be a way to separate teams that want to take college roller hockey in a varsity-like direction from those teams that want to be clubs and just have fun. Then those that want to challenge LU and see how far they can take their club would have an easier road to travel.

[turbodsmforlife]

The NFL is now doing a Thursday flex game where they play 2 close competitive teams. That would be great if the league could do that, but it would be near impossible for our league to.

[MBurke]

The NFL is now doing a Thursday flex game where they play 2 close competitive teams. That would be great if the league could do that, but it would be near impossible for our league to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's just changing the scheduled time/date of a game so that it goes to a national TV audience, not physically changing the matchup.

I don't think anyone thought Premier was a terrible idea, Mack - I just think many thought it was too early for it. We're almost 5 years down the road now.

[MAmato]

Question: given that we all have very different budgets, how is a competitive, development, or what have you league going to work when there are probably only 15 teams nationwide that can legitimately compete at that top level? Travel is the limiting factor here.

[Lindenwoodhockey]

Many good points on here, however many of these points create this scenario hypothetically of course: where I have received a degree from a great university, but I now choose to accept a job at the local fast food chain because I know I can work half as hard and still become manager rather than working for the fortune 500 company and have to work twice as hard to become middle management. We cannot expect respect from others when many in our sport wish to take the easy way out instead of competing at the highest level. We sent our B team to the SE Region last year and to the Eastern Region this year. We wanted them to play the best teams in that region, not the best B teams but rather the best teams. How is our B team going to get better beating up on other B teams, we took some lumps but it paid off in the end. Our DI team was 3-18-0 our first year, during that season I spent a lot of time at high school games and DIII games trying to recruit guys to come to Lindenwood, I had nothing other than our 3-18-0 record and a plan to get to the national championship to sell to those recruits. It can be done!

Also, Penn State's club ice hockey team receives much more than $4500 from their university; not to mention the almost $100,000 from private donors and alums.

[GoRangrHky]

Getting $100k from private donors and alums says more about the program than the school. That has to do with the organization of the club and what they do now, not how the school treats them compared to other clubs.

Maybe I read it wrong, but did someone say before that Lindenwood costs $20,000 a semester? Looking at their website, tuition is $12,000 a year ($6k a semester).

I personally am one in the boat that overall, DII is more competitive than DI, and gives teams an opportunity to compete at a higher level. That said, I also agree with creating a top-mid-crap level structure. Saying that there will be teams with bed records at each level will always happen- not every team can be above .500. I personally think in the long run it'll make programs better, and the league more competitive.

[ISFN]

Getting $100k from private donors and alums says more about the program than the school. That has to do with the organization of the club and what they do now, not how the school treats them compared to other clubs.

Maybe I read it wrong, but did someone say before that Lindenwood costs $20,000 a semester? Looking at their website, tuition is $12,000 a year ($6k a semester).

I personally am one in the boat that overall, DII is more competitive than DI, and gives teams an opportunity to compete at a higher level. That said, I also agree with creating a top-mid-crap level structure. Saying that there will be teams with bed records at each level will always happen- not every team can be above .500. I personally think in the long run it'll make programs better, and the league more competitive.


About the costs I think your referring to my post, and yes when you add in room and board which together is 6k, so now your up too 18k and the school makes you live on campus for your first year so there's going to be other fees, so like I said 20k a year is about right if not more.

[GoRangrHky]

One of the key points to recruiting that I've found as a NCAA DI coach (yes, I actually am a real DI coach) is not only to find the best players, and not to dupe them into thinking that your school is the best, but to put them into a situation where they will be satisfied for the 4+ years that they are in college. Whenever we talk to a recruit, we talk to them about the makeup of the team, the types of personalities the players have, and our organizational philosophy. We don't lie to them about the amount of work that is required, the amount of time they will have to dedicate to their studies, and what academic programs the school is strong in. Over time, we've discovered that putting people into the right situation academically is essential to the student-athlete. Everyone needs to remember that their is life after college, and for 99.9999% of the population (including all of the superstars in this league), that life will not be based around roller hockey. It will be difficult for anyone graduating with a degree in business from Lindenwood to be picked up by any MBA program or large firm, as the school is not AACSB accredited. Not that I have even an ounce of the hockey skill required to go there, but if I did, I probably wouldn't have anyway, knowing what I do now about the school. This is not a knock on Lindenwood specifically (as Neumann is in the same boat as a non-accredited B-school), but a decision about your education needs to made first, hockey second. I was alllll set to go down to Towson for grad school, until they announced that the specific program I wanted was going to be delayed a year. I wasn't about to go register for something else, just doing something that wouldn't help me in life just to play some hockey. I decided to stay at Hofstra because it offered me a program that I could use, while still allowing me to play.

That said, I have no problem with people choosing to go to a school to play hockey. All I'm saying (to all the HSers out there reading this) is that look at the school first, and the standings second.

[turbodsmforlife]

One of the key points to recruiting that I've found as a NCAA DI coach (yes, I actually am a real DI coach) is not only to find the best players, and not to dupe them into thinking that your school is the best, but to put them into a situation where they will be satisfied for the 4+ years that they are in college. Whenever we talk to a recruit, we talk to them about the makeup of the team, the types of personalities the players have, and our organizational philosophy. We don't lie to them about the amount of work that is required, the amount of time they will have to dedicate to their studies, and what academic programs the school is strong in. Over time, we've discovered that putting people into the right situation academically is essential to the student-athlete. Everyone needs to remember that their is life after college, and for 99.9999% of the population (including all of the superstars in this league), that life will not be based around roller hockey. It will be difficult for anyone graduating with a degree in business from Lindenwood to be picked up by any MBA program or large firm, as the school is not AACSB accredited. Not that I have even an ounce of the hockey skill required to go there, but if I did, I probably wouldn't have anyway, knowing what I do now about the school. This is not a knock on Lindenwood specifically (as Neumann is in the same boat as a non-accredited B-school), but a decision about your education needs to made first, hockey second. I was alllll set to go down to Towson for grad school, until they announced that the specific program I wanted was going to be delayed a year. I wasn't about to go register for something else, just doing something that wouldn't help me in life just to play some hockey. I decided to stay at Hofstra because it offered me a program that I could use, while still allowing me to play.

That said, I have no problem with people choosing to go to a school to play hockey. All I'm saying (to all the HSers out there reading this) is that look at the school first, and the standings second.
I agree 100%. The most important thing in our future is our education; not what hockey team we played for.

[bigdaddy80]

**** that ****

Hockey comes first. Then you worry about that other ****

[turbodsmforlife]

**** that ****

Hockey comes first. Then you worry about that other ****
I hope your not serious...

[ISFN]

I picked my school for the hockey.

[DUHockey9]

Everyone has different priorities...

[GoRangrHky]

Well if that's the case (picking your school just for the hockey) why don't we just go with the Dave Glass idea and start a University of Phoenix team with all the best hockey players in the country? They can play in every region, have people all over the country, and just light it up.

[SuperSeremet]

I am a 17 year old student attending Perkiomen Valley and honestly I'd have to agree with the statement that if I am looking at 2 different schools, I'm going to go to the one with the best shot of a national title, regardless of division. I have already been accepted by Neumann College and plan on attending there and playing for the hockey team because they have a legit chance every year of repeating. I think a national championship would be a great thing to be apart of. So I hope that helps you understand why students choose where to go and why...

Go Express

Does anyone else think that the possibility of winning a college roller hockey championship is the wrong reason to pick a college? What happened to the school with a better education mattering?

[SuperSeremet]

I am just curious, can some of you who picked a school because it was good at roller hockey talk about your post-college plans. I am just wondering what is going through your heads.

[sduffy25]

Drexel was the first and only place I applied ( got accepted early enough not to have to worry ), and I didn't even know they had a roller hockey team at that point. We all love this game, but unfortunately it won't pay the bills, so I'd have to agree with everyone who's saying that choosing a school for hockey is not the best idea. I could see it being a deciding factor between two good schools, but not the main reason for a choice.

[William Bourque]

Here is an example...

I applied to Penn State, Minnesota, Shippensburg, East Stroudsburg...

I really wanted to go to Minnesota, i got in at Minnesota...

I didnt want to go to Penn State, i got into Penn State...

I didnt care if i went to Ship or ESU...

I couldn't afford to pay for Minn. (yes, i pay everything out of pocket), and had no interest in going to Penn State (family pressure applying)...

That left me with two schools for the same cost...Ship and ESU...

Well, at that point i didnt care where i was going, because neither school was Minn.

Then i found out that shippensburg had a roller hockey team. And after doing more research, i found out that 3 people on that team went to my high school and one more was planning on attending my freshman year.

At that point the choice between Ship and ESU was an easy one.

I have plans after college, and i will follow through with these plans, and the fact that i chose ship over ESU will have nothing to do with it.

So you can in fact chose a school based on roller hockey if you want too, and still be okay after the fact. The thing is, we all arent going to work for Fourtune 500 companies, and some of us dont want to work for them companies...maybe someone needs a buisness degree in order to take of the family buisness...


I still wish i went to Minn...damn low income :(


Finally, i ask every to take advantage of the fact that they can play hockey at school. My father was declared dead at the age of 4, but was brought back by his uncle who continued to give CPR after the paramedics called the time of death. It was because of this he lost most of his hearing and ability to talk, but that never stopped him. He played goalie and watching him play was one on video is just amazing. His mother taught him to talk, and read lips to were most people can hardly tell he is legally deaf. After High School, he was offered scholarships to Maine, Boston, Minn, Michigan, etc... so that he could play goalie. The only problem was, once they found out that he was deaf, they said they couldn't educated him and he was forced out of college and into the working world. Since then, he has started his own buisness, moved into a high powered position at the Philadelphia Newspapers, and so on, and the only thing he says he regrets, is missing out on college hockey...anyways, the moral of my story is to leave those alone who want to go to school to play roller hockey, they are in school, when the could be out doing something else...and its not only about the hockey, the team members you meet and the fun time you have is something that you cant replace down the road....

sorry if this rant makes no sense, i just hope you know where im coming from....

[SuperSeremet]

Thats not really the situation I am wondering about.

Hypothetically you have the choice to go to Lindenwood or Michigan State. You can play hockey at either and both are good teams although Lindenwood has won like every time they have ever played. Would you choose Lindenwood, a school few outside of the roller hockey world have even herd of, or do you choose MSU? I am just curious what people think.

[GoRangrHky]

I have no problem with people picking a school over another one after considering multiple factors (including education) and then weighing in hockey. That's not a problem at all- in fact, something that will enhance your student experience SHOULD be considered when choosing schools. However, going to a school specifically because of their hockey team, and how good that team is, should only be a factor, not THE factor, when picking a school.

What you did Bill was exactly what should be done by people. You looked at the schools first, looked at cost, location, and what kind of education you wanted. You decided that 2 schools were acceptable to you based on those factors. Then you looked at the hockey part. If at THAT point you made your decision, that's precisely what people are saying should be done.

I have in a sense screwed it up, but for grad school. I think that Hofstra is a great place for an undergrad education, and I loved my experience here for that. However, for my MBA, I have been really disappointed. I looked into a number of other schools, some with roller hockey (FSU, Towson, Michigan, CSULB), some without (UMass- Amherst, Southern New Hampshire, Oregon). Looking back, Amherst probably would hav been the better choice for hte program I wanted. But I decided to stay here and play, and now I'm miserable (as far as school goes, at least.) This is why I tell every high school kid that we talk to to make sure that Hofstra is the right place for them, with hockey only being a part of that equation. I wish I had taken my own advice, and who knows, I be in a very different situation than I am right now.

[eXpress19]

My post earlier about choosing a school on hockey was soley based on the fact that all the schools i have applied to are pretty equal in education except for the fact that I got into PSU Main and Michigan State. I applied to these schools to see if I could in fact get in and because my grades are so good I did get in. Now my purpose for not going is because I dont want to move that far away from home, which is the same for many people. So to say I chose my school based only on hockey is not what I meant, but I did mean that when it came to the education of the schools being the same, then the hockey factor was the most important. Hope that cleared up my post.

[uconnhockey1]

Here's my two cents on all this...

When I applied for school, I applied to four places... UConn, Towson, Delaware, and Lehigh. I got into all four schools, so that did not play a major factor. Having to pay for a good deal of my own school, Lehigh was eliminated, considering they gave me next to nothing in terms of scholarship and financial aid, plus they did not have my major or any hockey team.
My parents pressured me to go to Delaware, because it was close to home, but I just did not like the campus, and the point of me going to college in my mind was to go somewhere further than a half hour away from home.

It basically came down to UConn or Towson. I liked both schools a lot. Towson had a more notable roller hockey program, and it was what first attracted me to the school. When I visited UConn, I really liked the campus, and met with one of the guys on the team, explained their direction in terms of where they want to go in terms of the roller hockey team, etc. In terms of hockey, it would have been a no-brainer, I would have easily chose Towson. The guys on both teams made me feel welcome, but Towson was just flat out impressive. However, after examining the academics of both schools, in addition to the money it would cost to go to both schools, everything was reversed, and UConn easily became my first choice. Suffice to say, I am pretty happy with my decision, and while UConn hockey still has a long way to go, I'm glad that I am a part of the team and look forward to hopefully becoming strong sometime soon in ECRHA.

My advice would be: absolutely do NOT go to school based on roller hockey. As of now, it has little future, unfortunately. Maybe one day soon it will, and things will be different. Your college education is what is going to get you far in life, as I am finding out very quickly. Bosses and managers look at where you are getting your degree, and having UConn on my resume gives me an edge when competing for a job. Unfortunately, life does not revolve around roller hockey. What it does revolve around is degrees, masters, GPA, and things of that sort. Choose wisely.

Jesse
UConn Hockey #1

[DGlass]

I chose Pitt because Notre Dame doesn't allow Jews, Arizona St. is almost as easy to get into as heaven and Pitt was a heck of a lot cheaper than either (2.5 majors, study abroad, and a job with a global advertising agency later, I think I made a good choice.

I actually had to have my parents mail my hockey stuff out to me freshman year after I found out about the team...hockey was the farthest thing from my mind.