View Full Version : well...
02-16-2005, 11:39 PM
fellas...i play professionally here in great britian and we have 8 nhlers playing here..from a players point of view i commend the players sticking to their guns and not agreeing to a salary cap..if they did agree to one then this whole lockout would of been pointless and showed that the players union is breakable..also if you were making 5-6 million a year would you really want to take a pay cut..these guys are use to a certain lifestyle and not having the funds to sustain this would be taking away from their livelihoods(sp?)
02-16-2005, 11:58 PM
What a crock. I understand that they have to put food on the table, but there are guys just coming up that made more money than Bobby Orr did. Now I understand inflation and increase in revenue, but what I do not understand is these players having the egos that would allow them to put the stability of the league and the sport at risk for their own financial needs. If money really was an issue for them, they would have been back playing by now. A little money is better than no money. It is about greed. Sure, the owners probably lied about how much they are losing, but if they are losing any significant amount of money, things need to change. What happens when the teams can sustain themselves? I wonder if people will come back if the NHL ever resumes. It took the Maris chase after the lockout with baseball to really get the fans back.
02-17-2005, 01:22 AM
I second that "crock"
Let's turn it around... If you were an owner why would you want to take less and less profit every year or worse run more and more in the red. I say dont stop here, let's put a cap in the worst offender of them all - Baseball. The small market team cant afford to compete with the big timers. Arnt you sick of every star headed to the Wings, Avs, Flyers, and Rangers at the trade deadline every single yr. Look at baseball... it should be the league's best vs the Yankees for the all-star game. Why is football so popular, cause the salary cap prevents teams from being true dynasties, you've got a cap of no more then 5-6 years of championship capability. Then its back in the toilet (ie Cowboys, Buccaneers).
If your really playing in Europe with these guys... stop being so star struck and campaigning for their kids, kids, kids, futures. Im gonna be sick!
Well.....they are going to have to change that lifestyle more now than before...
Did you hear what Bettman said? Linkage is back in now, and all bets are off that the same level of offer will ever be seen again....I can see a cap of $30 m. in the next offer, with a minimum of $18 m....When there is no where else to go for the same money what do you think will happen? There is now a valid argument for the league to go that low during any arbitration procedures, because with the loss of the season a much lower offer is justified to make up for the lost revenues which will result....
Solidariy is great when 'workers' are being abused...this is hardly the case in professional sports. Let's not forget, no matter how hard players have worked honing their skills, it is still earning your living playing a game, and one cannot lose that perspective.
The union had a chance for full revenue disclosure by what ever means they chose to see if these losses were only posturing, or real, and they declined the opportunity, still crying foul....you cannot have it both ways......
Frankly I think there is far more to this whole story than we have yet seen, because so little of this makes good sense. Sure I see the owner's point, and I understand that players may have spent commensurate with their earnings, and never wanted to hear that there may be a chink in the armor, but burying one's head in the sand, is not going to change things.
I think some of the owners really wanted this to go the way it has. I suspect some owners are looking to a whole different scenario if they can get salaries down low enough. That scenario would be a true World League, with maybe a dozen North American teams playing against a dozen newly formed Euro teams, with a partial interlocking season.
Stage one: The lockout we have seen with no resolution in order to get the salaries headed down in the "right direction"..... Get players playing in Europe for lower salaries..cheap exposure to the "best players in the world" to help promote what is coming.
Stage 2: Go to arbitration and justify an even lower salary level, pushing it down far enough to where maybe a dozen select European locations could build new larger venues, and generate the cash flow to compete.
Stage 3) drag out the process long enough so that the weaker NHL owners are forced to sell, close, or form a new alternate North American league just to survive.
Stage 4) Announce the formation of this new "Superleague"
Stage 5: Announce new rules based on Euro Style play and solicit a new international multi network television deal to host the new World competion...truly the "best teams in the world"..giving a fresh hook for the TV execs. bored with the current product.
Conspiracy theory....maybe, but...logic does not explain all that has happened so far...
Actually the root of all evils...is "free agency"...this is what drives the great salary grab in all of these sports, and hampers fan loyalties. Funny how the talent seems to erode in inverse proportion to the size of the salary.
For most players...sure they have talent, but some club somewhere took them under their wing and spent time and money to develop this talent...for this, the club should have the right to be rewarded for a very extended period of time...just like when army pays for your education.
If you spent 10 years developing in someone's system, you owe them 10 years at the NHL level...if you stay that long...if the club chooses to release you..all bets are off.
Actually money really isn't what created dynasties...with perhaps one or two very limited exceptions...mostly a "dynasty" comes from great scouting and coaching within a system, and developing your talent through a great farm organization. Detroit may be the only real case where money can be pointed to to help create a dynasty...but personally i think it was having Scottie Bowman to hold all that talent together and get them to play as a team...more than the talent itself.
In football look at New England..it's not money that made this a dynasty.
So many players in pro sports have this image that once they reach the "star" plateau, they can justify the money because they have become a "marquis attraction". How many of these players truly continue to perform at marquis levels once they reach this plateau...maybe 25%? You can almost mark the decline of a player once he reaches his first major salary settlement. Or else they find a new way to enhance their performance..ie steroids.
So many players once taken out of the environment in which they developed into "stars", can no longer perform as they did within the system.
So free agency hurts two ways...if costs the owners an arm and a leg, and it tends to place players in a different environment, where they may no longer shine as brightly.
02-17-2005, 04:23 AM
Well a few things here...
One let's see where the Patriots are in three years, my bet is in the ceiler.
Scotty Bowman should be considered with the likes of Phil Jackson. Possessed the ability to get stars to play together.
How about this for the ultimate evil... ESPN
You can make a case that Sports Center ultimately drives free agency.
I think your points are valid, but let me make a point to show where the flaws are in your ideal system. If a team were to survive strickly off of the fruits of its development of young talent, then there would be even less parity in the league. Let's say the Islanders had a horrible farm system for 10 years. If they were to fire everyone and bring in a whole new organization with a whole new structure, it would then take them 5 years atleast to even begin to dig themselves out of their problems. Free Agency and trading are the only immediete cure, but trading will be far less frequent without the threat of free agency.
Anyway this is all meaningless. We are stuck with no hockey and one of my goalies is jumping off a bridge. Good luck to our sport!
02-17-2005, 08:59 AM
Mike, While I think your idea of a World league would be darn nice, I just don't see it happening. However, I do think the players have just shot their left foot off though.
I found the following on nhl.com:
At this solemn moment, we reaffirm the unwavering resolve of all 30 Clubs to make the NHL healthy through the creation of a modern economic system that will pay the players fairly, keep ticket prices affordable and make sure that, each season, each team realistically can compete for the most cherished trophy in sports, the Stanley Cup.
We want our fans to know we understand the impact this dispute has had on you. We want you to know how very much we appreciate the patience you have shown the NHL during this difficult moment in its history, and we want you to know we are deeply sorry for any hardship caused. We remain committed to resolving our business issues in a way that assures the long-term viability of the League so that no disruption of this type ever will impose itself again on our great game and our fans.
That would be from the Chairman of the NHL Board of Governors.
Two things stand out like a red nose a AA picnic to me in there:
1) The statement of wanting a "modern economic system"
2) the statement "resolving our business issues in a way that assures the long-term viability of the League so that no disruption of this type ever will impose itself again."
That says only one thing to me: The NHL owners are planning to crush the NHLPA. I'm a tad hazy on this but I believe there is a point at which the NHLPA can be decertified. If and when that happens, the owners will fold their current operation and relaunch a new one. In that league all the teams will be owned by the league. Today's "owners" will simply become operators who lease the intellectual property (team names, logos, etc etc) from the league. This is known a "single entity league." The reason the owners want this is that now, all the players actually work for the league, a "single entity." And that has the added benefit of making it so the league can enforce whatever salary structure it chooses as it is a single company's pay scale, not an entire industry (as the NHL (some 30 "companies") is currently viewed by labor law.)
And before anybody scoffs and says "it can't be done", Major League Soccer, Arena Football League 2 (and I think 1) and whatever that Lacrosse league is called, operate this way. It is the "modern economic model" for professional sports.
And just to stay on topic, if Roller ever develops into a serious pro league again, it will be a single entity league as well.
Ben it could well be..although I would not rule out an attempt to create a superleague through this same method...There is no doubt that a "force majeur" is needed to put hockey back on the media map...It is unfortunate that these recent events have garnered more media coverage than any Stanley Cup chase ever did...
This "modern economic system" of itself may not have the appeal necessary to recapture the hockey attention of the media/wtimages/icons/frown.gif, so something will still be needed for a "hook" to get the media back in the game...
The changes proposed to the game itself will only really appeal to knowledgeable fans who are in tune to the nuances of the game, and not have any short term impact on recapturing fans....maybe some long term benefits but not much in the short term. They will need a major splash to get the non die-hard hockey fan watching games again.
The highest hockey media ratings have always been for international competition. While an international "league" might not garner the same kind of nationalistic attention as a World Cup or Olympic competition may be able to create, I think there would be a percieved trickle down effect when playing teams which present the best players from individual countries.
I feel strongly that the owners and management have a much larger and different agenda than the one presented on the surface of the events or non events we have seen. Whether it be as radical as I suggest, or just the direction which you point to, there is definitely a different agenda. That is the only logical reason to explain the inaction we have seen....there is a major game afoot.
02-17-2005, 09:50 AM
You had to bring the Islanders into this one.....
Actually you are right in a way. The creation of free agency was really done to overcome the existing dynasties like the Montreal Canadians back when, because they had such a lock on the Quebec talent pool....at the time, perhaps the largest single source of talent in North America. As the league expanded, "free agency" was a necesary "evil" to allow the newer franchises to acquire top talent. You can certainly understand that the status quo teams did not want to give their competition "access" to their talent pool, and fought this for years. It was only sharing in the expansion fees that allowed this to happen.
02-17-2005, 12:00 PM
How can you commend the "players"(NHLPA) for sticking to there guns ? This is a league that had 20 teams that lost money last year totaling over 300 million dollars. The NHLPA is saying that those figures are false, but they declined several invitations to review the books. HMMM... Why would they do that ?????
02-17-2005, 12:11 PM
First of all playing against goons like Wade Belak and Eric Cairns would hardly make me star struck considering they are not stars..haha..anyways my whole point was that the players should be happy that they didnt bow down to the owners and accept a salary cap and secondly, would you honestly like to take a pay cut from your current salary no matter what job you were doing whether you were an nhl player or an construction worker..working for less money isnt fun is it?
Anyways, I found this out today. A few of the games well known players went behind the unions back to get a deal done. And as of Tuesday night, it looked like the lockout would be over and that the players agreed to a $44 million salary cap but the deal fell through because of Goodenow's unwillingness to accept a salary cap.
02-17-2005, 12:18 PM
I would except less money if it meant my profession might be in danger of collapse and also knowing that not accepting this pay cut will result in a pay cut much more harsh.
02-17-2005, 12:38 PM
Ask the US AIRWAYS pilots and flight attendants who gave management the pay cuts thru their union only to still wonder if they will have jobs in June. Bet they would have accepted salary caps to keep the planes flying if management's salaries would be capped too!
02-17-2005, 02:09 PM
Would I take a pay cut? no, but that is because, if I decided not to work for my employer, I could probably make a few calls and find someone who would hire me somewhere else and make my money there.
However, this is a totally different situation. These athletes work in a unique enviroment. They do not have the luxury of playing anywhere else an making the money they make. If the leagues in europe were a financial option for them, this wouldn't even be an issue, they would all just flock over the atlantic and force the NHL's hand in the matter. However if my boss came to me and said, listen we are going under and the only way were are gonna survive is to cut your 7 million dollar salary and make it 5 million, i'd choose the 5 million over the 500K i might make in europe, russia, or the echl.
02-17-2005, 02:11 PM
Well K when I think of garbage I think of the Islanders. HAHAH...Sorry Rich Pilon just rubbed me the wrong way when I was young, never got over it.
02-17-2005, 02:12 PM
Not another "Super League" ahhhhhhhh
02-17-2005, 02:59 PM
I feel the same about Eric Lindross.
02-17-2005, 03:07 PM
I once asked Ed Snider how, as a businessman, he could justify paying Eric Lindros.
His answer was that he couldn't, but if he didn't pay him, what would the fans do?
02-17-2005, 03:18 PM
You know the Ranger fans are thinking the same thing!
Actually Lindros was never really a true "power forward" as Philly tried to develop him into..He was actually more of a Mario Lemieux type in Juniors...But Philly wanted to be consistent with their old Broad Street Bully image and tried to get Lindros to fit the mold. Hence he never really developed into the player he could have been.
This is maybe the most classic case of why free agency can be so detrimental to both the players and the clubs.....taking a young player out of his developmental context and then that player never really fullfilling the promise they showed. Lindros played in a farm system that amplified his talent, and the big bucks lured him away to a system that insisted he change his style of play to one that was not right for him.
02-17-2005, 03:35 PM
no the said truth is that they probably arn't thinking about it at all due to the lockout... sigh
02-17-2005, 03:54 PM
Okay, so I'm looking at Mike's acronym, clicking on the MDE on the menu bar, and I'm thinking, "what has Mike come up with now?"
Sheeesh! Mike, that's brilliant! Big business does this all the time, in terms of consumer manipulation using supply/demand to create alternate factors of importance to direct a new scenario of outcome...gulf oil embargo of 1973 comes to mind: the public had paid $0.05 to $.29.9 per gallon of gasoline for what, 70 years or so...in one year, the price goes up to $1.30, and it has stayed proportionate ever since. Quantum leap by "creating" new market factors.
If the NHL were to become the "Earth Hockey League" (of course, we'll clear the name through Anthony first!) or whatever, then each country, North America and Europe all, would probably feed it with a minor league populated with its indigenous citizenry...the AHL would become an actual league of primarily American players, as would the top minor league in each country...
That might even be a good thing...it's fun to speculate imaginatively, anyway...
<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>
02-17-2005, 04:14 PM
The true meaning of life (in hockey)...
Last night, we had eight skaters and eight chairs, for the first-time ever, in our wheelchair roller hockey league at Nations-Tobin. We have three actual para-athletes, and five able-bodied players in chairs participating. The para-athletes skate rings around the rest of us.
"Nettie" called me up three weeks ago. She had heard about our new league. Had never played hockey, but "had seen it on t.v. (we guess, not lately), and really wanted to learn how to play this game." I told her come on out.
This little tiny black person comes wheeling into the small rink one Wednesday. We get her equipped, some basic fundamental skills pointers, and away she rolled! She is probably the best all-round player in the city on two big wheels. Even our premier two bantam-age able-bodued players, just concede loose pucks to her: "She always gets to it first," notes Tony. She is a joy to coach, she gets it the first time, she asks the good questions, she understands tactics. This woman is 48 years old, no less...
Jackson came out last night, to watch and run the clock. Jackson was a captain on one of our 10's tournament teams last year. This year, he is undergoing one of series of surgical procedures to elongate his right leg as he grows older. He cannot play (able-bodied) hockey for another year at present, and he is going nuts. We think his doctor will let him play wheelchair, and it's like he has a new lease on life.
Good things are all around us in life, and in hockey life as well. Maybe we'll all begin to look at the importance of things in new perspective without this year's Stanley Cup run...
<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>
02-17-2005, 04:54 PM
Theyve still won 4 cup since the flyers won their last!
And out of all people to hate...Pilon??? common.....
02-17-2005, 07:35 PM
yeah well this is the flyers year... I can feel it babe!!!
02-17-2005, 11:11 PM
They have as good of a shot of winning it all as the islanders and penn roller hockey!
02-17-2005, 11:59 PM
Penn's goalie is a weak lefty.
02-18-2005, 11:18 AM
Wow thats rough!!!
If you dont hit me im not stopping it.
02-18-2005, 02:47 PM
Prolly still good enough to play for the isles tho. COme on K that was harsh enough to merit a nice smarta$$ reply.
Based on the recent events reported this am Thurs Mar 04/05 on TSN, your projection has some merit...a $3B+. offer from a sports consortium put together to buy out all 30 franchises....
Here's the first inkling that something else may have been "afoot" during the whole dance we have witnessed....Somebody is trying to make this a "single entity league"....
Maybe it's a threat to the NHLPA....brokered by the owners...a "single entity league", which once in existance would have different and much more powerfull legal recourse to deal with salary negotiations.....
The $3B could be paid for in "shares" allowing the owners to remain involved as share holders, but having a completely different business structure from which they could negotiate, or impose a more desirable solution to the conflict....
In any case it should prove interesting.
This is certainly an interesting and newsworthy week for hockey.
03-03-2005, 06:44 PM
Theres a big difference from the average worker taking a pay cut in his say 40,000 a year salary to support his or her family and just barely get by or taking a cut in your 40 million dollar salary because now you can't buy that brand new BMW and a new summer home. They all make me sick.
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