Professional Inline Hockey

[MDE3]

What really needs to be done to make it work?

Current problems:

It costs money to participate, and there are not many arenas available which can support the number of fans needed to have a fighting chance for an owner to recapture his/her investment.

Second problem: there seems to be only enough willing and able talent to support one league.

Third problem...there is no consistant set of rules for all inline hockey which wants to aspire to "Pro" or "semi-Pro" status.

Fourth Problem: There is no "prize money" available for every game.

Solutions:

Identify the facilities which can support a "pro team"...meaning arenas with a minimum of 1500 - 3000 seat capacity. Only host games in these facilities.

Solicit only owners who can post a significant bond assuring that they will meet commitments.

Solicit significant sponsors who will be willing to come up with prize money for every game..so each game is played for "a purse"..winner gets 2/3's loser 1/3 rd.

Consolodate all the various leagues into one "Pro" league.

Make all "Pro" or semi Pro inline hockey play full contact rules, with fighting limited as is now the case in the XIHL.

Make a very defined set of rules for "full contact" which means only contact is allowed from 180 degrees forward of the center of a players chest. This rule to be absolute, so that even if a player were to turn their back to an oncoming check, it would remain incumbant on the player throwing the check to be skilled enough to abort contact.

By appying these rules, I think the pro level game would satisfy the player safety concerns of those who did not want to play "full contact", as well as removing much of the intimidation factor which the previous lax rules on "fighting" allowed. The play in the XIHL seems to bear this out...good games there.

Make every player who wishes to play "pro" attend an evaluation clinic(the players would have to pay for this themselves if they wish to be certified) where they would recieve (or not) a "pro card", certifying that they have the minimum skills necessary to play at this level, and insuring that they fully understood the intent and limitations of the rules governing "pro inline hockey". This camp(s) would be held every year, and certification would only be good for 2 years, before requiring that a player requalifies.

Referrees would also be required to attend a "professional officials camp" to be certified to referree at a "pro" level.

While I may be stating the obvious and many who are currently involved may think that I am naive, the only way for the sport to achieve a viable sellable product, is to have a qualified product to sell, and a plan as to how an investor can recover his/her money.

[FAfromCT]

HERE HERE!!!!

[DannyG]

On Saturday, our local 18-23 year old travel team accepted a challenge from a neighboring university club team to play an exhibition game at our rink.

The college guys came down to our barn with the correct attitude, knowing full well they were not going to be very competitive with our local guys, but they "wanted to learn."

Our local guys are in team make-up very much like the Arizona Stallions, all young, all having played though the youth group tournament series, and very skilled.

The final score was 23-0, which is neither here nor there...but what is relevant to this discussion, is that with no promotion of this as an event, in fact it was only "set up" with me two days before, and was 90 minutes after the final (peewee division) game of the day...so many people came back to the rink, or just hung around and stayed, just to watch 'our guys' play, that we had a crowd of over 100 people in the barn...

Mike is exactly correct when he states that a "quality product" is what people will pay to watch. Put together a quality team and quality level of play (much as Mike has described it), and the fans will indeed come...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[SpiderRat]

23 to 0??? That doesn't sound like good sportsmanship at all! Now you've embarrassed that team twice. Believe me, I'm not trying to start any bad blood here, but that type of behavior hurts our sport. Those kids who lost learned nothing, nor did the kids that won. What was the message in your post again? Oh yea, having 100 plus people in the stands. Had I brought my son to that game, I would have taken him out of that rink at 10 nothing. That's not entertainment in my view.

Blah Blah Blah, Shoot the puck already

[NLane]

And they didn't really pay to see it.

[NewarkBears1]

Where are these guys from? If they are such a 'quality product' why aren't they in the league? and i dont think this sounds like a very high quality level of play.

[born2runPROgm]

I agree with all of the above comments. However, I think some issues are over drawn. Having player certification? If players are getting paid to play that means there's a serious league with serious teams. Serious teams have serious management like the NHL or old RHI. These teams wouldn't allow for a sub par player to play. Basically what I'm trying to say, is if there was a real PRO league, pro meaning player salaries or payments each game, I could only assume the level of competition would be so great in trying to get on these teams that there would be no need for such a system. Now, with some of the current leagues, the certification might be viable, but not if we're talking real Pro Inline Hockey. Many of todays "roller hockey legends" didn't come from roller hockey. Tony Zabo, Jerry St. Cyr.. etc, were all good ice hockey players who came to the first (and maybe only) true Pro Inline League, and then made names for themselves. If there was another Pro league, players from ECHL, AHL, UHL and Europe would probably start the trend over again. Not that the true roller hockey players aren't good enough, I just think there's too few, maybe a couple hundred at most.

The Gambler

[MDE3]

Yes I understand what you mean..however to be sure that the sport is not just &quot;ice hockey on wheels&quot;, meaning that all the players understand the differences between the checking as it is now seen in Pro and collegiate ice, and how it will be enforced in the Pro Inline levels, to get the current group of AAA inline players to understand just what is expected in terms of talent/skill levels, and to get the sport started on the right foot given all the past history with various pro and semi pro leagues, I think the institution of a &quot;qualifying clinic&quot; is mandatory.....otherwise you set up the same situation as was seen previously.

What you are saying about serious management and serious teams, I understand, but given the past history of the sport, I think the qualifying clinic approach is part of the package needed to be able once more to sell the &quot;product&quot; to these potential owners in the league. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

What I am suggesting that needs to be established, is NOT second rate minor league ice hockey on wheels, but a league where the skating talent is on a par with the best of ice hockey, and where the free wheeling skills of inline are amplified, while still having the thrill of checking maintained in the game.

Just having prize money available, is no guaranteee that &quot;serious talent&quot; will just show up. The amount of money intiially would still be very modest compared to even WCHL levels...maybe $150.00 to $500.00 per player per game.

Having a proper evaluation and instructional clinic before the league can proceed, will have the effect of sorting out guys who feel the deserve to be in the league, because they were a good &quot;inimidator&quot; in some minor league pro ice venue. I have seen a few &quot;over the hill&quot; ice hockey types with legitimate pro ice experience in MLRH and their play didn't enhance the &quot;product&quot;.

It will allow the new league to set &quot;a standard&quot; for quality of play as well as let everyone who plays know what is expected in terms of how the sport is to be presented to the public.

The point is to learn from history.....After say 10 years of successfull growth...maybe then eliminate the qualifying...because the standards of the league are fully established.

The other value of establishing a qualifying clinic, is to give the younger &quot;inline only&quot; players a bench mark to shoot for..where they can look forward every year to trying to qualify for their &quot;pro card&quot;...This is done in other sports where there is much diversity in the levels of competition, so why not for pro inline. In addition if the sport grows internationally...there is a standard already established.

The sport needs more credibility before any serious investors will be ready to jump in with enough cash to where the process of "natural selection" as you suggest will take over. There has to be a comprehensive and totally organized plan to regrow this sport at the pro level again.....baby steps.

[DannyG]

Uh, actually...

The NMSU guys were very satisfied with the game. They wanted to put themselves on the line to see what they've got. They knew what the outcome was going to be before we got started. Both teams played hard the entire game with a very high level of respect and sportsmanship for each other. There was no showboating, or other in-your-face nonsense...All 18 of the payers stood around in small groups after the final handshake, chatting and making future plans. In fact, the NMSU guys are going to come down regularly to train with our guys for the next several months. They are looking forward to joining one of the NCRHL associations, maybe even playing in some college division tournaments in the future.

Uh, folks, there are no MLRH, PIHA, or XIHL teams in this area of the country. As far as being a rec-select team, playing in USAHIL, Texas Cup, and Six-Pac type events, our guys have done okay, but make no large claim to fame. Anthony Flynn has seen our boys play, maybe he can give you an objective opinion, but I would not presume to do so...

The point I was making above was that, for here, our local rink having "our guys" playing an out-of-town team was a big news, hot ticket type item. Isn't that the fan mind-set that a professional team wants potential fans to have? Just word-of-mouth produced an actual crowd, coming just to watch the game. My surmise was just that the sport is ready to be a legitimate pro sport, and I echo Mike's initial analysis.


<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[5_hole_master]

23-0 shows no respect or sportsmanship so you should retract that statement...

[born2runPROgm]

I agree. You just have to take into consideration the "judges". Who would they be? What would they look for? Would it be like a skills comp with test of skating speed, shot speed... etc? If you look at some of the best NHLers like John Leclair, had there been this system in the NHL, he would never had made it to Montreal. I do understand what your saying however. At this point the potential owners would need some security in the product. They obviously don't have it right now.

The Gambler

[MDE3]

Not so much that sort of thing although there would be certain &quot;minimum&quot; times over three tries on various standard drills, and the drills themselves would require certain skills which I do not see in some of the current players...for example... how to execute a proper scissor step while skating backwards, necessary to &quot;close&quot; on an opponent while keeeping them in front of you.

Evaluations would include positional awareness, skating stride, balance drills, ability to carry the puck at a certain minimum speed with the head up, basically the same sort of evaluations which take place in thousands of ice hockey arenas for travel teams.

Standards would be established by a board of existing professional players, to where the skill levels would certainly not be impossible to achieve..ie if you are not already a World Cup caliber player you do not make the cut.....

However for the sake of safety and quality of product, a certain agility is required in order to make and recieve a hit, execute a pass under pressure, maintain correct position in various defensive situations...these are the basic skills that would be evaluated,....all the little things which make up the bag of tricks expected at a professional level.

Scrimmages of course would also be used to evaluate game situational awareness, as well as those other intangibles that you mention with your example of John Leclair. A formula would then be used where a poor mark from the pure skills evaluations element would be factored by the game situation evaluation mark.

EG..a player would be evaluated in a game situation based on a score of 10 being average where 20 would be the max, and "0" the minimum. The maximum skills points would be for example "100" for the sum of all the skills. Minimum skill levels would be 50. However a player who scored 50 in skills but 20 in game situation...would recieve a final evaluation of 1000. An average "gamer" would recieve the same score even if he was "perfect" in the skills evaluation, with 100 possible points, but only 10 from the games evaluation... There would be a minimum score necessary to recieve your card...say 600 from both facets, as long as the minimum "skills score" of 50 was met.

Just because you recieved your &quot;card&quot; is no guarantee you will be selected as a player, but it at least insures a body of selectable players that can be expected not to embarrass the league. The process of &quot;natural selection&quot; would still be used from within this body of talent.

Additionally this would provide a snapshot of the talent willing to play at this level, and become the basis for a &quot;scouting&quot; system..currently not formally existant in inline hockey. I would see these evaluation clinics as coming at the end of a series of &quot;Pro&quot; clinics being run in the summer around the country, so that players are fully prepared and &quot;warmed up&quot; to make their attempt.

[GROWL]

I have nothing but terrific things to say about Danny and his group in texas. In fact their brand of publically owned rinks is something that I wish we all had the benefits of.

As for whether or not his players have the ability to play at "our" pro level or my assessment of their abilities is irrevelant. I say "our" pro level, because obviously the northeast is the hotbed for all three pro / semi-pro league. The simple fact is that a nationwide spread of these leagues is going to be extremely tough, because the coordinators of this league only have so much reach and so many contacts. What we all need is people like danny all across the country to come forward so that we could build a strong nationwide alliance in partnership with what we have now. What Mr Egan has proposed sounds terrific, however we only have the benefits of our own resources and can only do what is in our own power to do so. Until someone with the additional resources needed to accomplish these goals comes onto the scene, then we must go forward with what we have.

[GROWL]

CJ (Gamble) makes the best point I've ever heard in regard to pro inline hockey or atleast was touching on it.

If pro inline hockey actually got to be a serious player. We would all find this irrelevant, because none of us would be likely to be involved anymore. Once the dollars come into the picture, ice hockey players from other organizations would flood the scene. Coaching staffs with actual systems would demand players with understandings of them and the inline players, even the top notch (Yoder's, Yinglings, Mazers, ect) would have a tough time even getting onto the scene.. whether or not they can compete or not.

Becareful what you wish for...

[MDE3]

Hence the need to "grow your own"...the sport will never start out at the levels of even an AHL pay schedule or even close, so the "flood of talent" you refer to will not be as strong as you imagine. Players like Szabes and other notables were very talented ice hockey players without the size needed to compete in the upper levels of North American Pro ice, but were superstars in the original RHI...I think the high end inline talent today has a lot of players of this caliber from within the sport not just from ice. Remember that what I am talking about is training players to a certain standard of contact hockey which is different from ice hockey, and the game itself is significantly different with the existing XIHL and MLRH rules too. Existing ice hockey schemes will not automatically "transplant" successfully to the Pro inline game.

I am emphasizing the training/evaluation clinics not just to cull the talent, but also to make the players understand what will and will not be allowed at the Pro levels of inline. Specific rules about stick contact and body contact, will make the game different....and purposely so..but these rules need to be demonstrated and taught to the players so they understand that this league will NOT just be ice hockey on wheels.

[NLane]

And don't forget that the best of the local talent should be rostered whether they play all the games or not. Local players help draw the people of that sport no matter what sport it is.

[DannyG]

The score was relevant to neither the tone nor timber of the play. I stand on the statement, and offer the perspective that no player on either team would disagree...I have given my reasons for saying so. If you disagree, then fine.

Has your experience has never included a game like this? A game where your opponents were a level above you, gave no quarter, didn't slack off, even when ahead, yet didn't display any in-your-face antics, emotions or celebrations.

Have you never had the occasion to win a game by a lopsided margin, yet afterward your opponents expressed gratitude for the opportunity to have played against you?

I report again that the NMSU team verbalised a number of expressions of satisfaction with the game, and all the players are going to train together in the future. This was a case where good friendships were developed.




<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[born2runPROgm]

Anthony is correct. What percentage of truly "elite" inline players obtained there skills strictly from the developement of local inline programs, clinics, camps...etc without any help of ice hockey? I believe that the almost all of todays best IE: Mark Wolfe, Ken Blum, Zabo, Yoders, Tracy, Piheiro... etc. developed through good ice hockey programs. I feel a huge problem for the development of amateur inline hockey may be the lack of strong coaching. Of course the same can be said for ice in the US, just not at the same level. Are there really enough pure bread inline players to make up a Pro League? The abundant consensus on pure bread roller hockey players (meaning they never once played ice) is that they aren't as used to keeping there head up or or hitting simply because they didn't have that exposure through development. Now, I'm not wanting to sound negative, and this all may be simply stating the obvious, but I just feel Anthony's right in assuming that once a true Pro league emerges, ice hockey players may forcefully take spots in the league.

The Gambler

[5_hole_master]

losing by 10 is a blowout, by 23 an embarrasment no matter how you put it, i do not care what was verbalized that is awful that you would put up 23 goals on a team... what did either team get out of the experience, and as a fan after watching that i would never go watch another game.

[MDE3]

I would agree that under normal competitive circumstances, a 23-0 score could be considered excessive, but the context may have been somewhat different here. If the visiting team came down expecting a blow out, and were there to gain experience against a better team, even asking them to pour it on, as part of a learning experience. Maybe this team had a history of being blown out in their own league, and wanted to hone their skills against a known better opponent. There are certain contexts where I could see this happening...as a part of a training situation.

The fact that local fans were watching their "homies" anihilate another team, is not the fault of the team on the floor and they were probably unaware of any other "context" so of course they would want to see their local "heroes" do well....

[NLane]

There are some good players that have never skated ice. Hockeydb has CJ as skating roller pro 2 years before ice. They are out there and can hit and skate with the best of them. Yes, if there is money involved, the ice players will show up but they better be fast.

[DannyG]

As I was able to sit in the stands to watch and converse with others during the game, in fact the fans were also knowledgeable about the situation...You heard applause for the quality plays made by both sets of young gentlemen, by the way, and not in partisan factions either...in this case, all the "fans" were parents, kids, and family members from our own program, there weren't any real, true "come out & see a game for the first time" potential new fans, which brings us back (albeit in a really big circle) to the original point of Mike's. My reason for reporting this in the first place was that you would expect about 5-10 people would be interested in a pick-up game between two teen/young adult teams, even if the local group was the best-we-got-elite level.

My surprise was genuine that a crowd (relatively a "crowd," that is, based on the expectation of only a handful of parents and girlfriends, etc.) actually "came out" to see the game. This leads me to the conclusion that our sport is indeed ready to become a legitimate entertainment product. If a local crowd will gather for a local game, then a pro-sized crowd might well be looking for a profesisonal-level entertainment product...

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[born2runPROgm]

There are some. In my oppinion however, most are currently between the ages of 8 and 16.

The Gambler

[NLane]

Ask Garrett about Ian, Chris Harrell and Brandon. None ever played ice.

[SpiderRat]

"Hey, how did you guys do last night"? "Oh we lost 23 to 0. But we had fun and learned alot. I can't wait to play those great guys again". Come on Danny, are you serious? Would you have posted the same had it been your team on the losing end? I'm just saying, games like that help no one. Maybe you should have split the teams up at half time. That way the guys that weren't as talented, can play with the more talented kids. This is how they learn. Just dropping my two cents.

Blah Blah Blah, Shoot the puck already

[SpiderRat]

Thanks 5 hole. I thought maybe I was missing something.

Blah Blah Blah, Shoot the puck already

[born2runPROgm]

I never said there were none, just not the majority. Not enough to comprise a pro league totally of.

The Gambler

[HitUHard]

Nancy just have them ask pomroy if i can hit.LOL pomroy call me if you read this too need to talk to you B

[MDE3]

I once had the chance to wander back and forth between two rinks, one ice rink with the Flyers practicing, and the other with games being played between some of the top juniors from the USA Inline East selection camp. It was very interesting to watch the comparitive skill levels...you did not get the impression that it was &quot;night and day&quot; from the point of view of skating skills/speed, or individual play..size however was a bit different. No doubt there are those who will assume I am biased, or slightly off kilter (possible of course), but I only mention it because I was expecting to come away from watching a pro NHL team practice back to where these juniors were playing, saying to myself.."who are we trying to kid"....However I was almost shocked at how relatively high a level was being played by these kids. (of course it was during the 2003 play-off series when the Flyers went into the tank again..so maybe what I saw was more a reflection of the state of the Flyers than the kids...)

[GROWL]

CJ please contact me... we need to finalize plans for dec 4 & 11th. I apologize i must have misplaced your phone number.

[GROWL]

Complete nonesense to compare the two. The level of understanding of the game between pro athletes who train daily to be top notch physically and mentally and the usa hockey inline 17U program that visit the FSZ once a year is night and day. That's like taking a bunch of all american highschool football players and putting them on a team to play the patriots. The USA Inline tryouts year is a showcase of who can hotdog the best once a year. The point I was trying to make with my original post on the subject is that if we reached your original goal with 5,000 seat venues, advertising, and owners with actual money to spend... then I beleive we would price the entire roller hockey community right out of the market and the flood gates for real pro athletes would open up. Beware...build it and they will come.

[MDE3]

I believe you missed my point entirely....I never suggested that the two would be competitive playing each other..simply that the levels of raw talent being developed in inline hockey are impressive, when you can get the chance to see them skate and play and have the chance to compare that "raw talent" to the "raw talent" of an NHL Pro team who were holding a scrimmage and practice in the same building(how often would you be able to see this happen?). I stand by my assessment....I saw it. As I grew up I had the chance myself to scrimmage against NHL talent in the summers..frequently..so I do have some sense of what I am looking at.

In addition I did not suggest 5000 seat venues, but 1500 - 2000 seat venues. This because it will take a while before fan interest will be drawn in significant numbers to see these games, and playing in larger venues would be cost prohibitive. Salaries would initially be very low compared to even weak minor pro ice leagues, so having a "huge influx" of top ice talent would be some time in the future.

[MDE3]

I believe you missed my point entirely....I never suggested that the two would be competitive playing each other..simply that the levels of raw talent being developed in inline hockey are impressive, when you can get the chance to see them skate and play and have the chance to compare that &quot;raw talent&quot; to the &quot;raw talent&quot; of an NHL Pro team who were holding a scrimmage and practice in the same building(how often would you be able to see this happen?). I stand by my assessment....I saw it. As I grew up I had the chance myself to scrimmage against NHL talent in the summers..frequently..so I do have some sense of what I am looking at.

In addition I did not suggest 5000 seat venues, but a minimum of 1500 and up to 3000 seat venues. This because it will take a while before fan interest can be drawn in significant numbers to see these games, and playing in larger venues would be cost prohibitive. Salaries would initially be very low compared to even weak minor pro ice leagues, so having a &quot;huge influx&quot; of top ice talent would be some time in the future.

Anthony, I suggest you take the time to actually read what I write before you so blithely address it as &quot; nonsense&quot;.

[DannyG]

Every time I write something in the Professional Inline Hockey Forum, I get hooted off, so this might be my last contribution, but...

I, too think there is a generation of players who have:

1. played the game since 5-8 years old,
2. received some quality tactical and technical coaching,
3. played in some reasonably legitimate regional/national level environments,
4. done the individual work on their game day-in, day-out for the requisite number of years,
5. Is now in the 18-22 year old age range,

...and...

never played a single season of ice...

I think the number of true inline players is bigger than you might think, and I think they will blend right in with whatever influx of crossover ice guys come to play in the first full-time pro inline league.

Also, please keep in mind that legitimate, 4th and 5th year, financially solid, regional professional leagues must come about before a full, national-level league can come into being. This has been true over the past 150 years (since the industrial revolution made sports entertainment a social pastime) with every sport today that is a full pro operation, in every part of the world (not just the U.S.).

<font color=purple>DannyG</font color=purple>

[NLane]

Here here!!!

[GROWL]

I was not arbitrarily trying to be contrary, but still disagree with your statement in regards to the Jr tryouts, but that is just personal opinion. I think our points here are talking about apples and oranges and im not looking for debate. I just think what you are propossing is sort of a middle ground between what we have and a true professional league. This is an unreachable goal with the current structure and staffs that head the current leagues. This is in no way an insult to them, but just a reality. The people who head the current elite/pro leagues are not business savy enough, nor have the resources to develop what you are suggesting. To reach such goals we would need teams of marketing and business professionals to develop it. If it were to ever happen why would it be developed on a small scale basis like that? I think the harsh reality is that the best inline hockey will ever do in the spot light is to grow a cult following whose members consist of its own, particularly youth who play inline. If the current national structures could some how/some day unite it would probably help matters. To be honest what I think would be maybe the best bet at the current time would be for there to be some sort of solid "public" relationship between the elite leagues and an organization like USA Hockey or USA Roller/AAU. I always enjoy your remarks, keep them coming... we need more people like you in the sport Mike.

[MDE3]

I agree it is a middle ground...but that is why I chose it as a starting point....the purpose of having this size venue, is simply because with the current popularity levels of the sport, the &quot;Pro&quot; leagues will have to crawl before they can walk. Also that size venue has a decent chance of being able to be used for other things like Continental Basketball, indoor soccer, indoor football, and various performing arts. The point of having venues that size was to be able to give the owners a fighting chance of recuperating their costs, while not being prohibitively costly to lease for an event.

Limited concessions would belong to the owners of the building, to help with their earnings, with the exception of any stands vending league mechandize.

I could go on for hours (as anyone on here who knows me, would most likely agree) about detailed plans I have given some thought to, on how to finance the construction of such a venue, and where, both demographically as well as logistically.

The point I am trying to make is that the sport will never jump into a full blown scenario like NHL or NBA on the first bloom (or second), but I truly do believe that a coordinated effort to secure funding on a broad plan that involves more than just promoting the sport of in line hockey could work...simply on a pure business basis.

Promoting this kind of investment based on the current state of the sport alone is at this point unrealistic. So there has to be a broader plan to insure that serious investors would see recovery.

I do not believe there are many existing venues of this size, which also have the floor space for a full sized inline rink, so these venues would most likely have to be built. One of the major logistical problems is the physical space required for something like this to be created...just for the parking....So I have a plan.....

Now perhaps you understand why I am not so paranoid about major ice talent rushing in....the financial future for the players, even though they may make a few sheckles, is still going to require that they earn a living doing things in the off season as well...with remuneration similar to say the ECHL or even below that.

I wholeheartedly agree with a unification (like I do with Christmas and Thanksgiving Turkey, the automobile and apple pie...) but first I think that on a smaller scale..as I mentioned in my first post...all the "pro" venues need to agree to a common set of rules, and agree to one league..maximizing the talent pool, and focusing the administrative efforts. If they can start the process among themselves, then maybe it might even catch on....(now I am really getting optomistic)