Injury at Narch Pro

[MDE3]

I heard JD Davidson from the Tour Mudcats got clocked with a high elbow breaking his nose and orbital bone at Narch Winternationals in the Pro division, requiring him to be hospitalized for two days.

First of all if this is true I wish JD a complete and rapid recovery and extend our sympathies.

The way it was described, the hit was a deliberate attempt to injure, by a player who is also involved in professional extreme fighting for cable television.

Am not claiming these events are factual, as we only heard of this through the grapevine. So before jumping in with both feet, can someone who was there confirm or deny these rumours?

If true does anyone know if any significant action is being taken to prevent this kind of deliberate attempt to injure in the future?

[yokes]

Yes JD was hurt and to a bad extent. That much I know is true.

Beware of a goalie that carries three sticks!

[rt12]

It's hockey.

[tourmudcat6]

Attempting to injure someone at an amateur inline tournament is not hockey. Taking a run at someone when they are not looking is not taught in any rink I know.

No one here is making 100,000 to play. No one here will get disability checks. No one will get fined 50,000. Are you in the NHL rt12?

Maybe it is a part of hockey for people that can't keep up with others. Or maybe its a part of hockey for all the CLOWNS that think they are going right to the show after their thursday night league game.

Things like that should not happen at this level. I don't know about anyone else on this message board, but I need to work the next day. Incidental injury is one thing, but crap like that is un-called for.

Matt Denton
Tour Mudcat


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by tourmudcat6 on 01/18/04 09:07 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

[TeamBreakaway]

Well said Matt. Hope JD is ok. It's stuff like this that makes what pro's used to be like years ago not worth playing nowadays. There was a certain form of respect. The players played the game with a consious. No one was out to hurt anyone. Everyone could skate and were out to prove that. Nowadays you have the slower not so skilled players who feel it's easier to take out a good player then have him show you up. Part of the blame goes to how the game was officiated as well because too much is being let go. It will be until someone runs one of the ref's inadvertidly for them to open their eye's to what they are presumed to incidental contact or malicious contact. They get paid to be there and the players are paying to be there. The people running the roller tournaments should realize that. Without the paying players there's no need for ref's IO no need for tournaments as well. I say it will take one big lawsuit before they open their eye's. But it will have to be something that is caught on tape so that the view of intent and the view of neglect on the ref's point before tournament people realize this.

[Hockeyplus]

Well said Matt it is a shame to see anyone get badly hurt, no one derserves to be. But that being said The Mudcats play a very physical game and are not shy about using their size to advantage. Some of your defensemen are stick happy and your goalie is not shy about using his stick to hook or slash any opposing forwards and your team does get away with a lot.

[Db55UD02]

I am sorry here, but can you really justify hurting someone playing roller hockey? Everyone has lives outside of the hockey world ( even cj). The stickwork from the mudcats are not justified, but neither is taking a person out either. JD may not be a nice player to play against, but I would have an awful feeling in the pit of my stomach if I injured someone to the extent everyone is talking about. Am I the only one with a conscience here?

[TeamBreakaway]

You are definitely not the only one with a conscience. Being around a lot of the Pro NHL players I see the extent of broken orbitals and cheek bones. See the scars from reconstructive surgery and also have talked to the players after the injuries. It's not a fun thing and not easy to overcome. Having metal plates put in to hold your eye socket is not a fun thing or even having pin's and screw in the face is not a nice thing either. Hopefully JD is ok and the damage is not that extensive. I will try to find out tomorrow how much damage there is and give an update. But when will Tournament people get a clue? When will Ref's realize that it's just a game and not let the nonsense go? JD didn't make a dime during that game. Non of the players did. It cost them money to play.
It's just totally RIDICULOUS!

[89jettawolfs]

I think any attempt to injure someone at any level whether pro or just in a for fun league is wrong. I don't know any of these pro players but i get pissed off when ignorant people deliberatlly do stuff like that. It just gives the game a bad name and makes people not wanna play.I hope they take action if it was a deliberate act to injure someone.

[Hockeyplus]

Intent to injure anyone is just wrong. But I feel the refs are in part responsible because they let so much stick work take place. The slashes and hacking that take place are not called until someone has enough and they retaliate and then you get a call. I don't know because I didn't see it but maybe JD or one of his teamates had done something against the other team that was considered out of bounds.
You would have find an unbaised person who saw the whole thing. There was no call by the refs and they are supposed to see everything. Does anyone know?

[MDE3]

I do not know that any one team can be accused of "using their sticks to advantage" more than another in inline hockey, as it seems that the flagrant abuse of players with the stick has become an accepted practice in inline hockey to the point where I see even two handers to the forearm let go on a regular basis by officials.

Maybe because the game is "non contact" officially (although even that could be up for dispute in recent history as I have seen more contact in TORHS tournaments than in some MLRH games) that the practice of "stick checking" an opponent has become more accepted, and a much broader allowance has been made. Interstingly I see less of that stick work in MLRH than in the "non contact versions played.

The above being said, there is NO excuse for a forearm shiver to the face at any "level" of hockey, where this is done deliberately.....if indeed this is what happened to JD. Making a play that can permanently injure a player and create a life threatening issue, or permanent handicap has no place in the sport, which remains just that....a sport. The question of whether a player is "paid" or not is not even the issue..... If this behaviour takes place outside the rink, it is very likely that assault charges, and prison time would be involved, not to mention serious civil litigation. Should this be excused because it took place on a rink?

Where ego and not real pride in one's self dominates the justification for playing, there is no doubt you will have abuses, verbally as well as physically. Sportsmanship has no place in the vocabulary of ego.

In further response to comments about the Mudcat Team, I look back to the Pro finals of the Winternationals Torhs tournament between the Mudcats and PAMA, where on more than one occasion I saw a player from the Mudcats grab an opponent who would have fallen badly at the end of a hard play, preventing a possible and uneccesary injury. I actually noted those occasions because I found it surprising in today's game and remarked to myself that is was nice to see some respect shown between players, even in such a close and toughly disputed game.

At a Winternationals a few years ago, I have watched CJ being submarined from behind and pummelled unmercifully along the boards with punches to the ribs..til where at the end of 4 or 5 games he could no longer be as effective. No doubt opposing coaches felt this was "good strategy. There were almost no calls made for these transgressions. Maybe the Mudcats have earned a few "non calls" over the years.

Yes hockey is a "tough sport", but it is tough enough within the rules. Maybe actions like this if taken deliberately by one player against another should be dealt with by the rules which govern behaviour outside the sport.

PS I have no affiliation with the Mudcats, other than watching them play on more than a few occasions, and while the comportment of some of their players in Major League might raise some questions, in general their play I have seen as "The Mudcats" has shown more sportsmanship on balance, than many other teams I have observed.

[33]

quote by hockeyplus --
I don't know because I didn't see it but maybe JD or one of his teamates had done something against the other team that was considered out of bounds.

yeah, they were beating them! what you said is a complete joke. you can't justify what happened so why try!

[33]

the mudcats play a physical game??? maybe 1 or 2 of them do but they are by far the least physical of the pro teams.

[SpeedDemon]

You cannot blame a ref for what a player does on the rink. A ref can only call penalties based on what occurs. A ref cannot play superman and fly between a player about to exact violent revenge on another player.

Sure, a referee influences how a game is played. However, it is solely up to a player to control himself according to the rules of the game. Anyone who thinks different has a skewed perspective on competitive sports.

[yokes]

Im sure that his "stickwork" didnt equal the attack the other player felt he needed to inflict.

Beware of a goalie that carries three sticks!

[SpeedDemon]

Wow, this is sobering news.

I've fractured my orbital bone due to being hit in the eye by an ice hockey puck. In addition to being a physical hardship, it is a difficult psychological injury to overcome due to being thisclose to losing your most valuable sensation.

Good luck JD and get well soon.

[yokes]

Great point Naz!!!!

Beware of a goalie that carries three sticks!

[TeamBreakaway]

Naz in one area your right but in another area I would beg to differ. The ref on the floor is sort of like a policeman. He's there to in-force the rules and to make sure the game is fair. In many events the person with the stripes doesn't really care and lets the game get way out of hand before they try to get a hand of the game by this time they are too late. By this time they have lost total control. The player who gets jabbed and jabbed and jabbed and makes the ref aware of it and when he goes out again he gets jabbed again and the ref says he didn't see anything is where the players control factor is lost. You can only take but so much before there is a reaction. Unfortunately some of the ref's await that reaction before they know that their whistle works. I've been on both sides of this fence and will say that if you are consistent from the initial drop of the puck and make the calls on the stick work and the dirty hits that by the end of the game you should have a good feeling because you know that you did your best. I hate to hear a ref say well it's TORHS or it's NARCh and you have to let more go. That's BULL. Rubbing a player off the puck is cool but running a player because he has the puck is different. Big difference. Some stripes don't see that. They have to remember that ice hockey is played on ice not on sports court. When they let the ice hockey hits go on the roller surface is when things get dangerous. Some forget that the bold extension of a players two hands with their stick in tact is a cross check. I've seen plenty of players get cross checked into the boards and no whistle. You even have those ref's that make the remarks:
"Hey it's hockey"
to a player who was just cross checked. That sets the pace of that next play up for retaliation. Now I don't blame all ref's because I know quite a few who are very good. Like yourself. But I know on many others that are horrible. Even worst is when a coach says something to a ref and the next thing is that they start watching Your players for infractions because you have just told them that they are missing things. The way he calls what you have asked him to keep an eye on from the other team doesn't change but he looks to knit pick everything your team now does. I have no problem that a ref calls a strict game. A hook is a hook in any language. SO if he calls a hook so be it. But to call a hook and the very next play see the exact same thing and let it go is pure horse sh-t. Call it! The ref that makes the comment it's TORHS or NARCh is the one that doesn't have a clue. Because no matter what series it is it's Roller Hockey! (NOT ICE)

[MDE3]

Again I think some of the problem is the experience and qualifications of the refs. At the higher levels of elite play it is not unusual to have players who have played at a Junior A level of ice hockey or above as well as elite inline hockey, and as you well know Pedro, there are more than a few "subtleties" to the game which are more encouraged in ice hockey and find their way into inline hockey at these levels.

If a ref is called to adjudicate an inline contest at the elite level, he should have had enough reffing experience at the elite levels of both inline and ice hockey to look for the player who is sneakily butt ending on every play along the boards, the defenseman who holds off an advancing forward with the stick held so that the tip of the blade is in the forwards face or chest as he comes in creating the threat of an immanent spear, and the one who is throwing the fist to the face while bringing up the stick on a frontal check, using the knee to the thigh along the boards in a scrum for the puck, throwing a right cross during a backhanded faceoff drag, slew footing behind the play etc, etc.

Without reffing at levels where this type of play is common, many of the refs used will never see these little jewels, and only catch the victims on retaliation.

In fairness to the referee community, maybe it is also a question of budget, where the pay for refs is not be sufficient to attract the more qualified individuals, or if they are present, they do not feel sufficiently compensated to "work too hard".

[SpeedDemon]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

In many events the person with the stripes doesn't really care and lets the game get way out of hand before they try to get a hand of the game by this time they are too late. By this time they have lost total control.

<hr></blockquote>

I suppose I was trying to make my point assuming that the referee in charge cared about the position he held. /wtimages/icons/wink.gif

You're right; in some cases there are refs out there who simply collect a check and try to do as little as possible and then it all snowballs. Of course, I would hope many are not like this.

To use myself as an example (and I know many refs who are the same way)... I will communicate with players all game regarding body contact and stickwork. If a player then decides to continue, say, jabbing an opponent in the ribs as they skate up the rink and I call a slash, I have established a precedent and followed up with a consequence. If in the following shift, a player on the victim's team decides to spear a player on the offending team, you cannot necessarily blame that on me. The bottom line is that you can do everything possible as a referee to control a game; there will still be those players who don't care at all.

I don't know the circumstances behind JD's incident; refs, players involved, etc. I do think that a lot more contact was being allowed in the older divisions this year than last year, which makes you wonder if the referees were instructed that way. However, for the players and referees that have been used to a certain style of play for so long, change can lead to a learning curve that results in confusion and frustration from everyone.

I hope I said this the way I wanted to. I've retyped this about 5 times.

[TeamBreakaway]

Mr Egan I will agree with you on the pay issue but will disagree with the fact that if you contract to ref a game that you do your best during that game and not the best that the money will allow you to do. Once a ref puts on the strip shirt and skates onto the floor that issue of how much he's getting paid to do that game should not be an issue. At that point he's committed to do his best no matter what the money situation is and if the $$$$ is an issue then maybe he shouldn't go on the floor because this is where the liability starts.

[MDE3]

LOL I never suggested that the refs SHOULD do that, simply that human nature being the way it is, it could happen. You heard the commentary as well as I did from the last tournament we were at. I agree with your position 100%.

[TeamBreakaway]

Yes I remember the discussion about the amount of $$ they were being paid and how they didn't feel like being there. This would probably cause a ref to not care what happened on the floor. Is it right? NO WAY! But then again is it right to be paid peanuts for some of those games? NO that's not right either. All I can say is if a ref has pride in what he does and calls a good game that somewhere along the road the thanks comes along and also the respect of the players as well as the coaches. Who knows maybe the tournament people will throw out a bonus. Unlikely but you never know. Only time will tell.

[Hockeyplus]

I'm not trying to justify anything. Just pointing out that there are two sides(three if you include the refs)to every story. The player who did the hitting is one who normally doesn't cheap shot other players, and getting beat would not serve as enough reason for this guy to act in such a manner. Something must have happened prior to the event. Before I point the finger at someone I would like to know the complete story, and no one seems to be able to provide it.

Speed Demon-No offense intended toward refs. I know you have no control over the unpredictable event. But if you are calling the illegal slashing, hacking and cross checking from the start the players will get the message and adjust. If the ref is interested he will let the players know by his actions-the good refs do. The ones who don't care let the game get out of control. Most of the refs doing Pros belonged there. There was one young ref with the long straight hair who didn't belong in that division. He looked like he was overwhelmed and forgot he had a whistle.

[MDE3]

I agree about knowing the complete story, but if a blow is delivered deliberately with an elbow or forearm, to the face of another, sufficient to cause that kind of damage, there is no "justification" argument which can excuse it.

If it was a clean check where some one was ducking away and got caught accidentally, which could happen, that's a different story.

The "story" I heard was that it was deliberate, and that it was because someone was "running their mouth". That remains only third hand information, and is not to be confused with a reliable description by a witness who was there.

I have too often seen brutal retaliation to players because they were "talking smack"....which seems a pretty weak incentive to put someone in the hospital. I am not necessarily talking about Narch Pro, but in general, where talking smack is considered an offence worthy of being punished by major damage physical damage. Please ...give me a break. Show a little class and do your damage with your skills, or at least contain it to a clean hit.

[HitUHard]

what is the name of the person that delivered this blow to JD. I do not know him (JD) personally but i have played against him in MLRH. JD hope you get better soon!! And to the goon that did this should face some sort of criminal action especially if he is a pro boxer of some sort.

[dude10k]

thats soo true

[SpeedDemon]

This incident occured in NARCh Pro. The pro boxer you're thinking of does not play that.

[SpeedDemon]

I should have clarified that I was speaking strictly on the assumption that a referee has, up until that point, maintained control of the game properly.

If a referee is good, he/she will know how to regain control of a game before something bad happens.

[Hockeyplus]

That is what I was trying to get across. But could have stated more clearly.

[yokes]

His last name is Moran. Dont remember his first name.

Beware of a goalie that carries three sticks!

[TeamBreakaway]

Just an update on JD. He did sustain a broken nose and also a broken orbital. The break to the orbital is being watched. Will be reevaluated next week for progress on how the orbital is setting. If it seems to be setting wrong JD will have to undergo surgery to repair the orbital. The nose although broken was not displaced or mangled so there was no need to reset the nose. Hopefully the orbital sets correctly and there will be no need for surgery because if there is they will have to re-break the orbital and replace part of it with a metal plate. This is alot more painful! Good Luck JD. I will try to keep you aware of the outcome of the injury.
Pedro
Nike Team Breakaway

[GROWL]

Best of luck to JD on a quick recovery. We expect him to be a marquee player in the league this season and hate to see anyone injured like this. Well said Matty, you speak for all of us.

[SpiderRat]

My prayers are with you JD. Hoping for a speedy and quick recovery.

[GROWL]

I'm in complete agreement here. I spoke at length with Jonathan Rose (TORHS Head Official) during the Winter Cup at Sportsplex and he made a clear distiction as to what the extra physical play during a TORHS event should mean. It should mean you can play the body tougher, stand people up a bit more, but he made it very clear that it was still imperative that you call the stick work tight. I agree with the arguement that not all officials completely understand their role and that when they don't take charge of a game it can get ugly. However there is still no reason to use your stick as a weapon. If it's that bad and you can't control your emotions anymore than atleast just drop your gloves and be a man instead of hiding behind a stick.

[ottakringerGM1]

Our prayers are with you J.D. Hurry Back, from the Ottakringer family.

[RichardGraham]

Hi JD,

My condolences to you for the injuries you recently suffered. I hope that you make the quickest recovery possible.

Sincerely,

Richard Graham
Editor
Inline Hockey Central

[rt12]

Sounds like Todd Fedoruk earlier in this season.

When I said 'It's hockey', I did not try to start anything or say walk it off or anything of the sort. I just wanted to assume that the hitter did not go out of his way to hurt the guy on purpose. What I meant was 'Its hockey and things are going to happen.' That statement only holds true if the hit had no intent to injure.

[TeamBreakaway]

Well the hit was definitely intentional, away from the play and behind the play. The ref's had their backs to the incident and didn't even know that it happened. Growl it was not stick work it was a combination of a forearm / elbow. Jd went down like a sack of potatoes. He tried to get up and fell again when someone finally got to him he was dripping blood from the face. The coward who hit him behind the play skated away as if nothing happened.
JD who is one of our players from our Nike Team Breakaway Team will be missed. Hope that the bone heals without surgery. If that happens he might be able to return to our PIHA lineup in maybe April. Of course with a full cage. The cage will probably be something he will have to wear for a few months. But again that is a long shot. Only JD will be able to tell if he is ready to come back or not.
Pedro
Nike Team Breakaway
http://www.TeamBreakaway.com

[SpeedDemon]

Seeing as how JD is the smallest and youngest player on that team (besides Mazer, but he's built like a brick sh*thouse), I fail to understand what the aggressor was even thinking. That is very embarassing behavior considering his supposed fighting background. If someone did you wrong, challenge a fighter or someone your size. It sounds like this guy's brain and balls grew at the same pace.

[CheckMate]

First of all, hope JD makes a painless and quick recovery.

Next,
Was there a call made on the guy who hit JD? Curious because so many of you said it was intentional. Did the refs give a GM? In addition, did NARCh issue any report or formal suspension? Did any of you see it?

Would like to know if any of you feel that attacks like these, or rather, players like these should be 'blacklisted' from roller hockey or other leagues? Many players get suspended repeadedly and just hop from one league to another.

[yokes]

No there was no penalty called on the play.

Beware of a goalie that carries three sticks!

[TeamBreakaway]

Thanks for clarifying that for me Yocum. I was gonna post that info but am just getting around to the site now. The ref's had their back to this and when they did see JD on the ground, get up and fall again was when they skated over to see what had happened. They conferred but neither saw anything so there was no call. As horrible as that sounds YES no call. They were out of position and because of their negligence JD is out for some time with a major injury that went unnoticed by people who were paid for officiating that game. Maybe the court of law should make the 2 ref's that officiated that game pay for the medical and hardship bills that JD endures. When wearing the stripes they were in total charge of that game and the way it was played so that should also make them responsible for their negligence.

A part of me is saying that an official should be paid in accordance to his performance. If he's at the game and is horrible he should get just that a horrible amount for that game. If they are very good as some of the ref's I know then they should be commended for their performance financially. I think this would clean up or (police) the games. Many ref's that I know are good ref's and with this sort of crap they are given a bad rap. It's not all ref's that let games get out of hand. If a teacher is ineffective as a teacher he's let go. If a coach is being paid for coaching and his team does squat and is learning squat he's also let go. This should apply with ref's as well. If they are competent and are good ref's they will keep control of a game and make sure they are in the position they are supposed to be. A message needs to be sent.

[SpeedDemon]

Wow. With everything being said, I can't believe a ref would not have gotten that "instinctive" feeling that something was about to go down and keep an eye out. Especially considering it sounds like this was a retaliation for something; you always have your eyes open in the back of your head when that kind of tension is in the arena.

[BkHdTpShlf]

First I just want to wish JD the best on a speedy recovery.

But how can you say, because of the negligence of the refs, now JD is hurt and they should pay for it? If they made the call would it of made any difference? The kid who did it would still be an idiot and JD would still be hurt. How about having the person who caused all this pay for it, not the refs just cause they missed a call.

Once again I want to wish JD the best.

Darrell Interbartolo
Boston Storm GM/Coach

[Hockeyplus]

SD you are the first ref that I have heard say anything about using that instinct. I believe most good refs have it and make themselves aware of developing problems on the floor.

[MDE3]

I agree that the ref's cannot see all and it is easy to point the finger after the fact. The individual who did this should be held responsible if it was as deliberate as has been indicated.

The refs are NOT the one's who did this and a player who is looking to get away with something will often check to see that the refs are not looking before taking action in order to avoid detection. Holding them responsible is really not a fair allocation of responsibility.

In the previous discussions there are a lot of assumptions being made, like that this was a game filled with stick work and opportunities or incentives for retaliation demanding heightened awareness from the refs.....not necessarily the case. Except for two people, I am not sure if anyone else posting on here was present to see what happened or what kind of game was being played, and so it is easy to get carried away with emotional opinions and start throwing blame in all directions before we know all the facts.

I would say a thorough investigation of the incident should be undertaken, and if fault is clearly determined to fall upon the shoulder's of an offending player, then action should be taken which has consequences specifically to the player in question. These consequences should carry a gravity equal to those suffered by the injured player. IE the player should recieve a suspension from hockey events (as well as it can be administered)equal to the lost time suffered by the injured player, and ideally be forced to foot the medical costs.

This of course is easy to say, and in fact will require that civil litigation be taken. Whether a new set of contractual rules could be written and which are included in the insurance contracts, which then reflect the need to hold players responsible for willfully inflicted injuries in some manner, is a whole new can of worms. My fear would be that this would lead to a rash of retaliatory claims, as well as claims initiated by the insurance companied to recover costs.

However an individuals rights to expect to be protected from attack should never be waived just because they put on a pair of skates, or cleats for that matter. Where a clear and well defined case can be made that a willfull attempt to injure during the course of a game resulted in serious injury, civil and criminal law already in place should prevail.

Technically this was what happened in the case of Marty McSorely vs. Donald Brashear a few years ago. McSorely was found guilty in a criminal action, as well as in a civil suit filed after the incident, however was only fined $1.00 from the cicil suit, and I am not sure what the criminal penalty was. However he had also been financially penalized by the league I believe, which may have mitigated the settlement and judgement.

[TeamBreakaway]

I did need to go back and say that yes the player who cowardly hit JD is the person who should be held responsible. But in the same breath the ref does share some of the responsibility to make sure he has total control of what happens on the floor. If they had been in position on the floor then maybe something could of been done about this situation. The fact that they were out of position and not doing their job is what I get wound up about. Where's the call? You can't call what you don't see. You can't see what your out of position for. When you pass your officiating test you are taught to be aware of everything around you. one ref down low watching play from the bottom and one ref up high with a different view from the top. When you let the play get behind you and not pay attention to your surrounding is when things like this happen. The player should of been carted out in cuff's. This was a deliberate intent to injure. Waiver's will release a lawsuit for coincidental contact but where there is malicious intent and injury that waiver is just a piece of paper. Liability can be and should be pressed on the person who caused the injury and the people who were supposed to be conducting the game for their neglect. Neglect in the sense that they were being paid to police the game. They were being paid to keep control of that game. What control did they keep if it caused a injury to this extent?
Mr Egan yes that player should be suspended for as long as it takes JD to come back and pay for the medical bills.

[SpeedDemon]

I agree. It is similar to blaming the sheriff of a town which sees a murder occur. No matter how much of a grip that sheriff thinks he has all ground covered, someone will always get away with something.

[rinkrat15]

I promised a few of my friends that post on this board that I wasn't going to comment on this but after reading all the posts I feel i need to at least try to shed some light on this situation.

Let me say this up front. I was not in Vegas, And obviously never saw the hit. I will also offer this, I know both of the players involved very well.

Here is what I have heard and my sources are as reliable as they get. From what I understand JD took a baseball swing at this player in question with his stick early in the game. And this other player reacted with a big open ice hit. From what I heard the hit was big and bad and obviously had some serious effcts on JD, and I more then anybody hope JD recovers and is back playing soon.

I have also heard from various people at narch that know the whole story said that JD deserved to be &quot;HIT BACK&quot; for his stick swinging incident. Obviosly not put in the hospital, but to be held accountible for the stick swinging.

Now again, I wasn't there and cant confirm the stick swinging or the hit, people on this board asked if anyone had heard what happened and thats what i heard, whether it's true or not I couldn't tell you. But my sources are pretty good.

Listen the blaming the ref deal is a bit over the top, It's easy to say, but in all honesty at the pro level the game is so fast and up and down that it's near impossible to catch everything, take the roenick incident the other day, 3 sticks to the face and no calls, just to tough to catch it all. It's true if they dont see the infraction they cant call a penalty.

Below is an opinion and is not at all related to this incident, just an opinion

I would also like to offer up this, and it's a trend that I see happening in the pro division. There are allot of great young players coming up the ranks to the pro division. One thing I am noticing is the lack of respect given by the younger players to the older pro's. And by respect I mean if your going to bring a disrespectful attitude to the pro game and go after and challange guys who are 28-36 years old then you better be prepared to pay the price. I cant tell you how many times I see 18-22 year old kids skating around the rink during a pro game sticking, and chirping at guys who twice there age,size and twice there ability, and i'm thinking to myself &quot;is this guy serious&quot;

My advice to younger players coming up to the pro level, first off 9 times out of 10 you &quot;are playing&quot; for money.
Torhs giving away $60,000 this year and Narch $20,000.
And get to know who your playing againts before you stick or mouth off. Thats a rule we all live by.. Take for example the Mission Pirates, A good young team, but during the last tourney in Anaheim a couple of there young guys are challanging Gerry St.Cyr and I'm thinking how bad this could turned out for them....Just use your head out there.

Again, I hope JD recovers quick and gets back out on the rink, He's a great young talent, And a great kid as well.

And listen don't reply to this post screaming and yelling, I just let you know what i heard, take it for what it's worth.

Good Luck JD

Mike


National Inline manager for Rink Rat wheels.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by rinkrat15 on 01/22/04 07:56 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

[NLane]

I didn't know NARCH allowed open ice hits? I guess the rules have changed since I read them.

[rinkrat15]

There not supposed to thats for sure.

National Inline manager for Rink Rat wheels.

[SpeedDemon]

As I pointed out earlier, they allowed quite a bit more hitting this year than last. I'm not sure if that was intentional or not, though.

[MDE3]

Accountability for behaviour is always relevant, but when it lands someone in hospital, with potential long term consequences, then there is always more accountability.

I am not commenting on any instance which may have led up to "the hit" because I was not there nor have I heard any other reference to the causes of this incident other than what you mention. If there was a major stick swinging incident, apparently it did not have the same consequences as the hit on JD or we would be hearing more about it. Maybe it missed? However I have also seen an inadvertant or careless use of the stick treated with the same severity as though it were a deliberate attempt to injure, and result in major punishment...even when the consequences of the first incident were fairly minor.

Wouldn't you agree that in the case of JD if the offending party had a beef...take it up mano a mano as opposed to what may well have been a calculated blind side hit of this magnitude?

Your inference that an experienced pro might respond to a younger player's lack of respect, by putting him in hospital, and possibly out of the game "is to be expected", may in fact reflect part of the problem. How much of that is really "instructive" and how much is simply ego?

We must all ask ourselves how we would feel the day after, when in the heat of the moment we took action that resulted in someone no longer being able to play the game, or worse, be handicapped for life in some way. Where does it stop? Another player seeing the hit on JD decides it's necessary to meet out equal punishment and use a two handed swing with the stick to avenge his team mate(another "unwritten rule)...resulting in a major concussion or worse, or lies in wait to take out the guys knees at a later point in the game?

Your reference to the "unwritten rules" is understood, but the problem with "the unwritten rules" is that many players play by a different copy, or rewrite them to suit the size of their ego.

Like I said before....hockey is a tough enough game within the written rules.

[Rebecca]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

I have also heard from various people at narch that know the whole story said that JD deserved to be &quot;HIT BACK&quot; for his stick swinging incident. Obviosly not put in the hospital, but to be held accountible for the stick swinging.


<hr></blockquote>

As I read this thread I am frustrated with the acceptance that checking and hitting is acceptable in inline and disgusted that it seems to be on a growing trend by organizations such as TORHS and NARCh. No one 'deserves' to be hit back (so to say), but a ref should call a penalty on the first incident and take a proactive measure not to allow it to escalate to a retaliatory incident that injures someone. Therefore, the penalty should have been on the &quot;stick swinging&quot; from JD if what is stated above is valid and had been seen by an official as a call worth making (if it had been seen). Too many times I hear refs state that it's &quot;give and take&quot; or that they let one go and therefor a player deserved what they got from the retaliation. Only the ref should hold a player accountable and at no time should a player be permitted or condoned to take this decision into their own hands.

I saw the games (not this one specifically) but I watched all the checking even in the ATOMS and MITES and I was pretty appalled that this is how organizations instruct their refs to officiate or how they allow them to continue. These were all indeed checking games. The college games were full check and DANGEROUS in most cases and even the teams were surprized having not been allowed to do this in regular season games. There were many injuries. I know a few of the guys who reffed and I know that they are capable of making better calls.

Sorry, but not in any league that I am involved with will I condone this. Go play ice boys!

It is not for a ref to personally choose which teams he (or she) allows to play at the level of checking and hitting. A ref should never be permitted to make that judgement, specifically where there are multiple games going on in multiple divisions. This is what contributes to inconsistency in officiating, and believe me that I am not a fan of the consistency arguement and will usually take a referee's perspective and side on it.

In speaking to a close friend of JD's today, the injury was pretty serious regardless of the intent. You hit, you pay. A ref allows it and eventually their organization and the ref will pay as well. Is this what our sport is coming to?

SHEESH
*aggravated and sickened by these injuries and attitudes. JD - hope you recover well and thank God it was not worse!

Rebecca

[NLane]

Don't play ice. Play MLRH, but learn to hit before you do. This sounds like a cheap shot not a real hit if I read these posts correctly. And why did JD "two hand swing" at this guy first (alleged)? Usually not just for being there! Sounds like this was a cluster from the beginning.

[rinkrat15]

Most important is that JD gets well....Mike

National Inline manager for Rink Rat wheels.

[rinkrat15]

I agree Rebecca, Way to much hitting in all levels....MIke



National Inline manager for Rink Rat wheels.

[MDE3]

yes

[TeamBreakaway]

Just found out that JD did have minor surgery and is ok. He'd anticipating being on his skates in a few weeks with a full cage and no contact for at least 3-4 weeks. Weather or not there was a call is a mute point now. It's in the past. Were all writing about what we think should be done or how we feel but the bottom line is that it's going no where. The bottom line is that JD is fine now and Nike Team Breakaway is grateful that JD might be in the line up for our PIHA season opener. My hope is that maybe a few of the people in charge will heed what was discussed and maybe try to make things better and safer so that we can expand this sport.
Pedro
Nike Team Breakaway
http://www.teambreakaway.com

[rinkrat15]

well said Pedro, Hey call me sometime.....Mike

National Inline manager for Rink Rat wheels.

[MDE3]

Great news

[TeamBreakaway]

Thanks for the post Coach Roy. I had heard the full account of what had happened and that was why I was angry when I posted on it. It's been sometime now between the end of the Nationals and JD has gotten over the hump with the problem. We're now going forward from here. But hopefully this issue is observed and does not fall on death ears. We need to police our games a little more. If the games are headed more towards the contact that is being allowed in ice then maybe the full gear should not be an option it needs to be more mandatory. But with that said maybe at that point a choice to play ice instead of roller.
Pedro
Nike Team Breakaway

[rinkrat15]

Well said by Roy And Pedro.
Mike

National Inline manager for Rink Rat wheels.

[Hockeyplus]

Bench Man you are talking about the respect the Pro players have for each other and for the most it is true. But if you are a young player playing Pro you should show that same respect for the older guys as well. The older Pros have a respect for the game and pride. if you beat them with your skills so be it, but of you beat them and then run mouth in a disrespectful manner that is unacceptable. This holds true for all the older pros, yes even the Mudcats. The Mudcats play a fair game but I've seen them rough up some of the younger players who haven't given them the respect.
I agree that Nick's hit was way out of bounds and I am sorry JD paid such a heavy price, but you can't take a baseball swing with your stick-hit or miss-and expect it to be ignored especially at that level. You should'nt run your mouth when playing against players who are the best and have been at the top for a long time. That is the worse type of disrespect. You can play physical and you can skate faster and you can even beat them, but don't disrespect them-they don't deserve it and won't accept it.
Again if the refs were paying attention and had seen the earlier baseball swing by the player and made the call, the later incident might not have happened.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Hockeyplus on 01/25/04 12:58 PM.</EM></FONT></P>