College and roller hockey

[EMANON]

Just a quick question about roller hockey. If you play in like MLRH & PIHA would this disqualify you from playing COllege or with any type of grants or scholarships? I'm looking to play but don't want to screw up my chances. I was told that MLRH there isn't a problem and that PIHA shouldn't be because you don't really get paid. How true is this?

[ottakringerGM1]

I dont bielive any league is structured as PROFESSIONAL, therefore it should not be a problem. What MLRH is is the highest level of roller hockey available to us (full contact). PIHA is pretty much the same but without the hitting or fighting. But to dig deeper on this i suggest you contact Steve Seeger of MLRH or Mr. Yoder of PIHA directly for a more accurate answer.

[EMANON]

Thank you very much OttakringerGM1. I just don't want to mess up any possibilities I might have.

[SpeedDemon]

I do not believe you can forfeit any NCAA rules from playing any leagues. Even if you were accused of such, I believe you could successfully defend yourself in court based on simple evidence.

You just need to be careful you don't violate obvious rules such as accepting monetary compensation for playing.

But I don't believe it would ever come down to such a thing.

[Rebecca]

<A HREF="http://www.inlinehockeycentral.com/cgi-bin/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=Inline&Number=19258&page=&view=&sb=&vc=1#Post19258" target="_new">http://www.inlinehockeycentral.com/cgi-bin/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=Inline&Number=19258&page=&view=&sb=&vc=1#Post19258</A>

Rebecca

http://thumbs.webshots.com/s/thumb3/8/3/85/67580385LGfyvC_th.jpg

[GROWL]

Okay I read all of the available posts on this subject and thank Rebecca for the extensive research she did on the subject, however no clear answer has been given to this question. I'm not sure how PIHA fits into this criteria and would like Rebecca to make a ruling if possible. Here is what I can offer as facts.

PIHA teams are in fact set up to pay players "if they make a profit" on a % basis of gate revenue.

However, there are no contracts stipulating this and/or gaurenting any player any financial compensation. Therefor creating a lop-hole that a player can play and not be paid.

I know our organization did not pay any of our players last year, as they all agreed to reinvest the players portion into needed equipment for the team "which they did eventually keep".

[Falcons77]

We had a kid on my MLRH team that was a great high school player getting ready to play NCAA ice hockey and was concerned about eligability. NCAA told me that as long as he did not receive payment of cash for playing and did not receive "gifts" that he was ok. They mentioned that were people get into trouble is when teams provide "more then the normal" amounts of equipment (ie. 4 pair of gloves, several pairs of skates, etc).

[TeamBreakaway]

Ok Growl just a small question directed at the PIHA. You mention that PIHA is set up to pay players "if they make a profit" on a % basis of gate revenue. Now my question here is the financial output to join PIHA and other fee's incurred in starting the PIHA team if basically put out by either a sponsors, sponsors or the players them selves. What peanuts might be made from gate revenue basically serves as a refund for funds put forth. So in all instances the player is not receiving money it's costing him to play. How would this hurt or actually be considered PRO status when $$ amounts are not spoken about nor a contractual situation is inhand? For it to really be considered a Pro Status usually there's a contract and a figure based on salary. If there is no salary basically the situation is treated as a advanced roller hockey situation. When you sign up for travel roller hockey and play in tournaments unless your being paid as in the TORHS Nationals where the Rink Rats won all that money at the championship then how can this be constituted as Pro? Does PIHA pay an exuberant amount on money when the season ends to the winning team? PIHA does mandate $$ upfront for gear / fine's ext. A portion of this is refunded at the end of the season if no fines are imposed. This is not an earning this is a refund. If you make $100 at a game what % of that does each player receive or does that go towards the $$ put forth to start the team? These are the questions that need to be answered. MLRH although is full contact in no longer considered Pro Hockey. It's AAA Roller Hockey. Will this be a consideration for the PIHA league as well. You draw more bears with honey then you do with salt. If you change the Pro Status to AAA roller hockey you will draw more high caliber 18-22 year olds that are concerned about College and weather they will be black listed if the participate in the PIHA league. Again reading Rebeccas post and trying to understand everything including the fine print. There really is no $$$ amount told or emphasized when putting a team like this together. Basically the players who participate do it for the love of the game. They put out money for gear, travel etc. So how would this really hurt the college status? Sorry for being long winded!
Pedro
Nike Team Breakaway

[Rebecca]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

would like Rebecca to make a ruling if possible

<hr></blockquote>

<font color=blue>Pedro, Growl, Mike and All;

Single-handedly, I cannot make a ruling on this for anyone or for NCRHA. I will however be heading up the committee that will research, discuss, and put the proposal(s) before the NCRHA Board of Directors. As soon as I get through the holiday, Vegas, and the start of ECRHA season again, I will make all attempts to configure a panel for the committee. It could involve resumes, it could involve just people sending me their research and info. In some capacity, I will seek to involve both USAHIL and AAU and others.

The issue is a bit dynamic and I feel its a lot larger than me and NCRHA. I feel in order to apply the rulings to the sport of inline hockey, we first need all the 'relavant' people to come together. Most say that is impossible and are still praying for the day we see this in the inline community. I say I CAN accomplish it with this one simple issue. Its not the issue of an NGB, its simply an issue of amateurism vs. pro and how we can apply the potential NCAA rulings to this developing and dis-unified sport. There are also the rulings by insurance companies that need to be considered. For example: the AAU will not sanction a 'pro-league' so their insurance company has made a ruling on who they consider to be a 'pro-league'. I will seek these reports. For some people, this matters not because they don't care too much for AAU. But in the grand scheme of scholastic sports, AAU is a big component. Same goes for NIRSA who is related to USAHIL.

I look forward to all the input from the IHC readers. This forum is one of, if not, the most educated and mature ones I belong to. I can count on informed info here from IHC members.

Rebecca

http://thumbs.webshots.com/s/thumb3/8/3/85/67580385LGfyvC_th.jpg

[GROWL]

All good points Pedro, please understand I act as nothing but a voice for Mr Yoder. While I know he may value my opinion more than most, I don't set policy just help spread the word and organize the Delaware Valley Division. Your best bet is to be at the next league meeting with Jay, Matt, and Jim. Your opinions and concerns are more than welcome. This obviously is not a topic that is going to be settled on a message board, but in our meeting rooms and NCRHA's.

I am sure we can come to some sort of agreement which will settle this issue.

[MDE3]

Pedro I basically agree with you on all points, and would take it even further. Even at Torhs Pro with the $50,000 total purse and the $40,000 winners share, the earnings for a 12 man team would only be between $3000 - $4000 per head. Certainly not enough to give up the day job. And right now that is the monetary pinnacle of Pro Inline hockey.

I posted on this earlier today in another part of this forum, so I will not repeat it all again. Basically there is no venue for players to earn a living exclusively by playing the sport of inline hockey. As such this makes the sport an amateur sport almost by definition. There is no huge monetary carrot to induce players into signing contracts, so the whole issue cannot be compared to the other sports which have truly "professional" leagues.

If we define "professional" as playing for compensation sufficient to earn a living year round, and which compensation allows the player to dedicate his/her time and energies to the practicing and playing of a sport.

If we define "amateur" as one who plays for the "love of the sport".

Then obviously the "professional" has a major training advantage, and significantly less financial burden than the amateur who must fund not only his/her day to day existance through other gainfull employment, but also pay for the majority of the costs to play the sport, as well as to practice.

Using the definitions above, are there any true "professionals" within this sport?

Once and if a true "professional league" come into existance (using the above definitions), the appropriate steps could be taken to invoke college eligibility rules which parellel those of other major sports with true professional leagues.

[TeamBreakaway]

Yes Anthony the meeting will be good to attend. I referred it back to you because of your earlier post about players being paid. Genuinely I don't feel that you nor Mr Yoder would want to hurt any player's chances at playing in colleges and that is why I posted. My partners did go to the meeting and we did discuss what transpired there. As you well know me I take situations like this seriously I just don't jump into something without checking the grounds first. You and I have had a few discussions about PIHA before, like last year, and about your Growl Team. I was honest when I said that I didn't have the time or interest. I did my research and was willing to step into another role this year. Having the people involved with me that are as concerned as I am and also in it for the same reasons makes this much more a happier situation. Being able to provide our youth an extra step from 16U is where we are all so alike. True some want to play in college and this is a positive step. Furthering their education is what we should all be pushing. Not everyone will go to college or at least not all will pick a college sport that has to worry about the word PRO. Although we all would like to see one of our kids go to college and be able to sign that million dollar contract to play roller hockey we all must be realistic and that is way in the horizon. So distant that we might be training newborns before they are talking about the same topic. The bottom line here is being realistic about that nasty buy nice word (PRO). It could help you in one way but also hurt you just as quick. That is why I am inquiring. I have taken the time to familiarizing myself with the bylaws and rules. Now just looking for some clarification. Sometimes someone outside the loop offers a good way to tackle a situation so that is why this dialog is so important.
Pedro
Nike Team Breakaway

[NLane]

I thought just accepting any type of "gift" or any amount of money could mess up a college scholarship. No real definition of Pro comes into it. ECHL players sometimes have to hold jobs off season to live. Aren't they Pros? I guess it comes to what is "making a living" from the sport. Does it pay all the bills or some of them?

[MDE3]

I should not have said &quot;year round&quot; but perhaps &quot;season long&quot;. But the remuneration is such that it offers a major financial incentive to play the sport, and permits the athlete to dedicate his/her time to pursuit and practice of the sport as a &quot;profession&quot;.
In the case of &quot;gifts&quot; or enticements proffered in major college sports which are normally intended to provide either substantive support and relieve some of the burden of &quot;earning a living&quot;, thus effectively enhancing the player's opportunity to practice and pursue the sport, or serve to entice the player to play for &quot;benefits&quot;, as opposed to for &quot;the love of the sport&quot; as an amateur. Effectively even a college atheletic scholarship goes against the priciples of true &quot;amateur&quot; sports.

In either case the inducements for playing, swing the pendulum away from the amateur concept, to playing for compensation.

Should it be proven that some players in MLRH or PIHA, are being compensated privately to play for a team, this might constitute a material breach of &quot;amateur status&quot;, depending on the amounts involved. However given the cost of transport to and from games and practices, the cost of equipment needed to play, the lost time from normal employment, and the direct and indirect costs of injuries sustained during play, it is difficult to imagine that even this subsidy, if it exists, would exceed the allowable compensation for equipment and travel currently permitted by NCAA definitions of allowable compensation.

Perhaps the limits of &quot;professional compensation&quot; as applied to college athletes, should have a ceiling that is equal to the financial benefits of recieving a &quot;full ride&quot; scholarship used as an enticement to play a sport in college.

[njbullets]

OK, I can't resist. First there is no chance of blowing amateur status for roller hockey since it is not a recognized NCAA sport. It is a club level sport. Games played between colleges/universities are due to the hard work of NCRHA and local Associations (not trying to slight any organization). I'm sure there is a push to get roller hockey recognized as a NCAA sport, but it will not happen overnight. Hopefully it will happen soon and this discussion will become more relevant.

Your answer can be found at NCAA.org. They list professional sports organizations and players associations and sadly, MLRH and PIHA are not on the list. The NCAA gives courses on eligibility so it is not a simple subject to answer in this forum. There are three manuals, one each for Division I, Division II, and Division III. Here is the web address for Division I in PDF format: http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership/division_i_manual/2003-04/2003-04_d1_manual.pdf. At page 83 you will find the definitions for:
Pay
Professional Athlete
Professional Athletics Team
Student Athlete

I hope this helps.

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[TeamBreakaway]

Thanks for the info Enforcer! Just trying to reasure players that still have that question.

[Sniper1]

Most of the replies you have received are absolutely correct but the reply by njbullett was "right on."
I feel the Pittsburgh Snipers have some of the best collegiate roller hockey players available to a MLRH franchise (Ryan DeMarco, Dave Thomas, to name a few); however, those guys decided to turn their attention to playing collegiate roller hockey rather than MLRH.

In their brief MLRH outing last year, Thomas had two goals againt the Sting and DeMarco burned the Voltage for five goals.

The issue of their collegiate elligibility being revoked for playing MLRH was never an issue.

Ralph Treat
Owner/GM: Steel City Snipers

[Benny_Gulakiw]

Hi Ralph!?!

Benny Gulakiw
President
Inline Hockey America

[umroller]

I just want it be clear that NCRHA is not in any way related to NCAA. If NCRHA imposes eligibility rules they do not have to conform in any way with those of the NCAA. However, if you play for PIHA or MLRH team and do receive compensation you should be careful to check on the NCAA rules if you ever wish to play NCAA ice hockey or other NCAA varsity sanctioned sports. As Rebecca has written, the NCRHA will be looking at this issue after the New Year and will have rules in place for next season. However, it is likely that players will not have to worry about this issue for the current season.

Ben Picker

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

OK, I can't resist. First there is no chance of blowing amateur status for roller hockey since it is not a recognized NCAA sport. It is a club level sport. Games played between colleges/universities are due to the hard work of NCRHA and local Associations (not trying to slight any organization). I'm sure there is a push to get roller hockey recognized as a NCAA sport, but it will not happen overnight. Hopefully it will happen soon and this discussion will become more relevant.

Your answer can be found at NCAA.org. They list professional sports organizations and players associations and sadly, MLRH and PIHA are not on the list. The NCAA gives courses on eligibility so it is not a simple subject to answer in this forum. There are three manuals, one each for Division I, Division II, and Division III. Here is the web address for Division I in PDF format: http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership/division_i_manual/2003-04/2003-04_d1_manual.pdf. At page 83 you will find the definitions for:
Pay
Professional Athlete
Professional Athletics Team
Student Athlete

I hope this helps.

<hr></blockquote>

Benjamin Picker
NCRHA Director of Marketing
[email protected]