Pro vs. Amateur (again)

[Rebecca]

<font color=blue>Would like your comments please. I know we have discussed this many many times, but now it will actually be put to use.

I am in charge of an NCRHA committee that will define (or rather 'apply') the regulation for Professional vs. Amateurism. If you have a specific background that might qualify you to be on this committe, please email me at [email protected] or feel free to call me 631.205.5018 (EST).

Let me preface this by stating that NCRHA currently does not have a regulation on this. CRHL had one at one point, but it was almost impossible to police and was dropped over a year ago.

In addition, we all know what the NCAA guidelines are for this. However, if you think those guidelines are easily applicable to inline hockey, guess again.</font color=blue>

My questions are below. First, look at this: Basically, according to NCAA, you are a &quot;professional&quot; if you:

-Are paid (in any form) or accept the promise of pay for playing in an athletics contest;

-Sign a contract or verbally commit with an agent or a professional sports organization;

-Ask that your name be placed on a draft list [Note: In basketball, once you become a student-athlete at an NCAA school, you may enter a professional league's draft one time without jeopardizing your eligibility provided you are not drafted by any team in that league and you declare your intention in writing to return to college within 30 days after the draft];

-Use your athletics skill for pay in any form (for example, TV commercials, demonstrations);

-Play on a professional athletics team; or

-Participate on an amateur sports team and receive any salary, incentive payment, award, gratuity, educational expenses or expense allowances (other than playing apparel, equipment and actual and necessary travel, and room and board expenses).

Before enrolling in college, you may:

-Tryout (practice with but not participate against outside competition) with a professional sports team at your expense;

-Receive actual and necessary expenses from any professional sports organizations for one visit per professional organization not in excess of 48 hours; and

-Receive a fee for teaching a lesson in a particular sport.

(go here for MORE info <A HREF="http://www.ncaa.org/agents/ncaa_summary.html" target="_new">http://www.ncaa.org/agents/ncaa_summary.html</A> )

<font color=blue>So now, here are my questions to you. How do we apply this to the inline industry? Or do we need to create our own regulation??? Some answers might be obvious, but some are not.</font color=blue>

1) What leagues currently exist in inline that could be or are considered 'pro' and details? AAU's insurance company has a definition of some because the AAU will not sanction a 'pro' sport.

2) If you are to tell me that leagues such as PIHA or MLRH should be considered pro (or are) then do you think that your mainsteam player (used to fill a PIHA or MLRH roster) should be banned from playing in NCRHA?

3) What about industry reps who work for an organization (use anyone, Labeda, Mission, Rinkrat) who have a responsibility to also play in the organization's &quot;factory team&quot;. Even if they don't ever accept prize monies, aren't they still compensated in some fashion?

4) If a regulation is made, how the heck do we police it? With the disunity of tournements, how do we verify rosters? How do we even get players to disclose earnings or acceptances?

5) At what point do we 'forgive' a player who once could have been considered 'pro'. The RHI went out of business years ago. Yet, players pop up who appeared on RHI rosters.

6) What about those players who are considered 'pro' for ice hockey.

I will think of more questions, but it's 6am now and I'm losing momentum.

Thanks



Rebecca

http://thumbs.webshots.com/s/thumb3/8/3/85/67580385LGfyvC_th.jpg

[Rebecca]

<font color=blue>Can't recall right now where this came from, but somebody had sent me this which was taken from theirs or somebody's inline organization. I really like it, but still my question remains, how do we apply it?</font color=blue>

Definitions
12.02.4 Professional Athletics Team
A professional team is any organized team that:

(a) Is a member of a recognized professional sports organization,

(b) Is directly supported or sponsored by a professional team or professional sports organization, except as permitted in 12.6.1.8 (see also Bylaw 12.6.1.1),

(c) Is a member of a playing league that is directly supported or sponsored by a professional team or professional sports organization (see also Bylaw 12.6.1.1), or

(d) Has an athlete receiving for his or her participation any kind of payment, directly or indirectly, from a professional team or professional sports organization (see also Bylaw 12.6.1.1).


12.1.1 Amateur Status

An individual loses amateur status and thus shall not be eligible for intercollegiate competition in a particular sport if the individual:

(a) Uses his or her athletics skill (directly or indirectly) for pay in any form in that sport,

(b) Accepts a promise of pay even if such pay is to be received following completion of intercollegiate athletics participation,

(c) Signs a contract or commitment of any kind to play professional athletics, regardless of its legal enforceability or any consideration received,

(d) Receives, directly or indirectly, a salary, reimbursement of expenses or any other form of financial assistance from a professional sports organization based upon athletics skill or participation, except as permitted by NCAA rules and regulations,

(e) Competes on any professional athletics team and knows (or had reason to know) that the team is a professional athletics team (per Bylaw 12.02.4), even if no pay or remuneration for expenses was received, or

(f) Enters into a professional draft or an agreement with an agent (see also Bylaw 12.2.4.2.1).


12.1.2 Amateur Status if Professional in Another Sport

A professional athlete in one sport may represent a member institution in a different sport. However, the student-athlete cannot receive institutional financial assistance in the second sport unless the student-athlete:

(a) Is no longer involved in professional athletics,

(b) Is not receiving any remuneration from a professional sports organization, and

(c) Has no active contractual relationship with any professional athletics team. However, an individual may remain bound by an option clause in a professional sports contract that requires assignment to a particular team if the student-athlete's professional career is resumed.


12.2.1.1 Tryout Prior to Enrollment

A student-athlete remains eligible in a sport even though, prior to enrollment in a collegiate institution, the student-athlete may have tried out with a professional athletics team in a sport or received not more than one expense-paid visit from each professional team (or a combine including that team), provided such a visit did not exceed 48 hours and any payment or compensation in connection with the visit was not in excess of actual and necessary expenses. A self-financed tryout may be for any length of time.


12.2.1.2 Tryout after Enrollment

A student-athlete shall not try out with a professional athletics team in a sport or permit a professional athletics team to conduct medical examinations during any part of the academic year (i.e., from the beginning of the fall term through completion of the spring term, including any intervening vacation period) while enrolled in a collegiate institution as a regular student in at least a minimum full-time academic load, unless the student-athlete has exhausted eligibility in that sport. The student-athlete may try out with a professional organization in a sport during the summer or during the academic year while not a full-time student, provided the student-athlete does not receive any form of expenses or other compensation from the professional organization. (Revised: 1/10/92)


12.2.5.1 General Rule

An individual shall be ineligible for participation in an intercollegiate sport if he or she has entered into any kind of agreement to compete in professional athletics, either orally or in writing, regardless of the legal enforceability of that agreement. (Revised: 1/10/92)


12.2.5.1.1 Non-binding Agreements

An individual who signs a contract or commitment that does not become binding until the professional organization's representative or agent also signs the document is ineligible, even if the contract remains unsigned by the other parties until after the student-athlete's eligibility is exhausted.


Issues Related to Institutional Staff

11.3.3.1 Non-permissible Employment Arrangements

Staff members of a member institution's athletics department shall not accept compensation or gratuities for representing a professional sports organization as a coach or scout, in the negotiating of a contract, or for the performance of other services that involve the observation of or contact with athletics talent. Except as provided in Bylaw 11.3.3.2, any compensational arrangement between a professional sports organization and a college staff member (e.g., for scouting other professional teams or assisting the professional employer in coaching its team) is evidence of an indirect arrangement to assure the staff member's assistance in evaluating or procuring college talent.


11.3.3.1.2 Semiprofessional Organization

Employment arrangements with semiprofessional sports organizations or with professional or semiprofessional organizations involved in a sport in which the NCAA conducts a championship (or one in which the playing rules and skills are directly related to the NCAA sport, e.g., box lacrosse, indoor soccer or indoor football) are subject to the limitations in this section.



Ice hockey student-athlete participating on professional roller hockey team
Date Issued: Jul 22, 1993
Type: Official
Item Ref: 3
Interpretation:
3. Ice hockey student-athlete participating on professional roller hockey team. A student-athlete with remaining eligibility in the sport of ice hockey may not engage in outside competition as a member of a professional roller hockey team without jeopardizing the student-athlete's amateur status in the sport of ice hockey. [References: 12.1.1 (amateur status) and 12.1.4 (amateur status if professional in another sport)]

NCAA Bylaw 12.1.4 -- amateur status if professional in another sport
Member institutions should note that in accordance with Bylaw 12.1.4, a professional athlete in one sport may represent a member institution in a different sport. The student-athlete, however, cannot receive institutional financial assistance in the second sport, unless the student-athlete: (1) no longer is involved in professional athletics, (2) is not receiving any remuneration from a professional sports organization, and (3) has no active contractual relationship with any professional athletics team. However, an individual may remain bound by an option clause in a professional sports contract that requires assignment to a particular team if the student-athlete's professional career is resumed. Please note that per Bylaw 12.1.4.1, if the individual later becomes involved in professional athletics while still a student-athlete with remaining eligibility, the individual would be considered to have violated the principles of ethical conduct per Bylaw 10, thus rendering the individual ineligible for intercollegiate competition.

In a related matter, an individual who agrees (orally or in writing) to be represented by an agent for the purpose of marketing his or her athletics ability or reputation in a specific sport would not jeopardize his or her eligibility to participate in another intercollegiate sport. An agency contract, though not specifically limited in writing to a sport or sports, would be deemed to be applicable to all sports, and the individual would be ineligible to participate in intercollegiate competition in any sport. It should be noted that per Bylaw 15.3.4.1, it is the institution's discretion to gradate or cancel the student- athlete's financial aid if the student-athlete agrees to be represented by an agent in a particular sport, even if the student-athlete has exhausted eligibility for intercollegiate competition in that sport, however, any compensation or bonus received by the student-athlete from the agent must be included in the student-athlete's individual financial aid limit for that academic year.



Rebecca

http://thumbs.webshots.com/s/thumb3/8/3/85/67580385LGfyvC_th.jpg

[SpeedDemon]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

1) What leagues currently exist in inline that could be or are considered 'pro' and details? AAU's insurance company has a definition of some because the AAU will not sanction a 'pro' sport.

<hr></blockquote>

I believe the only leagues that should be considered pro for the purpose of exluding amateurs are TORHS and NARCh, as they offer prize money to the winners.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

2) If you are to tell me that leagues such as PIHA or MLRH should be considered pro (or are) then do you think that your mainsteam player (used to fill a PIHA or MLRH roster) should be banned from playing in NCRHA?

<hr></blockquote>

I don't think any PIHA or MLRH players should lose amateur status. Compensations are minimal if anything, and usually are in the form of equipment. Most leagues allow for equipment compensation as long as it is for the purpose of team uniformity.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

3) What about industry reps who work for an organization (use anyone, Labeda, Mission, Rinkrat) who have a responsibility to also play in the organization's "factory team". Even if they don't ever accept prize monies, aren't they still compensated in some fashion?

<hr></blockquote>

Sure they are compensated; just like you and I, for the jobs we perform. This would be a tough thing to hold against someone, as any rep can simply say the free wheels he gets is a byproduct of his work compensation.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

4) If a regulation is made, how the heck do we police it? With the disunity of tournements, how do we verify rosters? How do we even get players to disclose earnings or acceptances?

<hr></blockquote>

This is obviously hard, but perhaps you don't police it as much as you just be on the lookout for it. Seeing as how I feel the only tournaments or leagues that should be monitored is TORHS and NARCh, it would not be hard to find the results and roster for any winning teams. And we know NARCh strictly verifies rosters and TORHS does a fair job of it too.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

5) At what point do we 'forgive' a player who once could have been considered 'pro'. The RHI went out of business years ago. Yet, players pop up who appeared on RHI rosters.

<hr></blockquote>

Well, if you want to bill yourself as strictly amateur, then there is no period of time; once you're pro, you're pro. But I would say you would want to perhaps come up with a certain number of games or less that qualify a player to be 'grandfathered' in. I say grandfathered because you also want to stipulate that current players cannot go and play pro games up to the allotted amount and still expect to be allowed to play NCRHA.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

6) What about those players who are considered 'pro' for ice hockey.

<hr></blockquote>

Does ice hockey care whether a player has played pro inline hockey?

[MDE3]

Isn't that just the NCAA regulations?

Make it simple......any athlete who recieves over $10,000 in remuneration during a single calender year from playing Inline hockey should be considered ineliglible to play at any Amateur level for the next three years. This provided no more earnings in excess of the amount of $10,000 are recorded by the same player during any calender year during the three year period. These earmings to inlude remuneration from sponsorships, endorsements or active competition.

Effectively this would allow players to play almost any level of Inline Hockey, while not truly "earning their living" from the sport...which I believe is truly the definiton of playing "professionally". They would be earning about the same as a combination of part time and summer jobs would allow them.

If the sport becomes commercially viable to where real annual salaries, or truly spectacular earnings become possible, and the promise thereof becomes an issue, then adopt the NCAA bye-laws.

[John_S_Osborne]

I believe tying it in with an earnings threshold would be hard, if not impossible, to track. The college leagues already collect a boatload of paperwork from teams, and I imagine collecting W-2 forms from each player would not be a great addition. ;)

- john

[MDE3]

I would make it somewhat simpler for inline hockey, as there is currently no venue for a player to earn their living by exclusively playing inline hockey in paid competition. Maybe if &quot;Speed Hockey&quot; catches fire, there will be an avenue for a fully compensated player to earn a living from the sport. There is really no comparison between this sport and the other major sports where the opportunities exist to "earn a living" from playing the sport.

I believe the concept of &quot;amateur&quot; versus &quot;professional&quot; implies that a &quot;professional&quot; is barred from amateur competiton, because his sole or primary &quot;earnings&quot; responsibility in life is to play the sport. Hense as a &quot;professional&quot; he/she is not burdened with earnings responsibilities, or other life obligations (like studying) outside the sport, and the compensation package allows him/her to dedicate his/her time to focus soley on becoming more proficient in the discipline in question.

This of course gives the &quot;professional&quot; an unfair advantage over the &quot;amateur&quot; who must focus first on earning a living,(or in the case of a student, earning a living and studying) from a source which does not involve playing or practicing the sport in question.

It is this &quot;unfair advantage&quot; which should be the &quot;Aucum's razor&quot; for defining professional or amateur.

The only circumstances close to this currently, would be players who actually operate or work full time at a rink, teach the sport, coach the sport, play the sport in the current "Pro" venues, and have the opportunity through their employment to practice the sport on a daily basis - and use this enhanced proficiency to be more competitive when playing in competition.

In the truest sense of the word, these players are the closest to being &quot;professional&quot; in that they depend upon the sport for their sole source of income, and that their employment affords them the opportunity to develop their skills.

In the instance above, the primary earnings come not from actually playing the sport, but the sport does provide their living, and the opportunity to practice far beyond the norm for most amateurs. Classic examples being CJ Yoder, Matt denton. Ron Tracy, Jay Mazer, and others whose employment and work circumstances provide them not only compensation, but opportunity do enhance their skills beyond the circumstances afforded to the true "amateur" player. However it would be extremely difficult for these players to effectively do their day jobs, practice their hockey, play their tournaments and attend school as well as play for a college team. So this circumstance is effectively self policing.

So using this criteria, I would simply make the rule(as above) that A) any player whose primary compensation exceeds $20,000/yr. (instead of the $10,000 used above) or has in the previous 2 years - from involvement with the sport, and B) only where that involvement affords the player extensive opportunity to develop his skills(practice) outside the actual playing of the game, would that player become ineligible for collegiate competition.

To police this the student must submit a playing history, a work history and an earnings declaration (W2) for the previous two years. Failure to do so would make that player ineligible. The administrator (of the individual team) would have the responsibility to ratify this declaration, and failure to do so or any attempt to decieve the league on or by a specific player, would result in both the team and the player being barred from the league. Although this sounds like more work, it is nothing compared to the work involved in policing the NCAA regulations.

By using both criteria, and all three declarations, it would be much more difficult to be considered "pro" and would ulimately be fair to those players who simply play the sport for "recreation" at higher levels, even though the word "pro" is bandied about fairly randomly, and be within the true spirit of playing the sport as an amateur.